Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spikes01k 07-11-07, 03:01 PM	Ok I am just completely ant totally ****** with TWF. I am disheartened and crushed with the obvious favoritism of the simple 4 feat two handed weapon wonder (Power Attack, Cleave, Great CLeave, Leap Attack). My Dear God really. Where I need to spend multiple feats for a sub par fighting style. Ok so I want to use two weapon, or even a sword and a shield, ok I need to spend a feat for one second attack, which brings down the attack of both weapons and the secondary only gives me 1/2 str damage. In ever situation a person with two weapons is found to be 4-5 times more feat costly and weapon costs are ALWAYS double too keep them equal in power. There is no redeeming factor here that I have seen with the exception of when performing natural attacks. You have a number of magical effects that apply to all natural weapons instead of ones that apply to all weapons. Would it kill them to have it apply to all weapons really? If I EVER run a game I would consider changing the following, among other things. 1. Axe ever other two weapon feat. Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon fighting would count as one feat! (edit: they would get the bonuses of the higher level feats when they meet the requirements; with out buying another feat.) 2. I would make both the primary and secondary weapon do full damage from strength. (edit: as a result of the ambidexterity feat listed below) 3. I would reduce the penalties for wielding by 1, and only 1 4. I would make ambidexterity granting a +1 bonus to hit as a feat. 5. Bonuses to TWF that where meant to reduce the penalties would instead just give bonuses to hit. (edit: things such as bonuses gain from the Tempest PrC and Exotic Weapons Master) 6. I would have a simple set of weapon augment crystals that cost a total of 600 gp (300 each). You would put a weapon enhancment on this crystal and it would cost x1.5 gp more per each, but it would apply to two weapons, this would only apply to two weapons. (It would only apply to weapons wielded by the same body, bodies that could break into multiple diffrent parts would not count.) Then and only then I think the problem with TWF will be solved! Edit: 7. In response to Tarkin, I would sadly have to make that only attacks with primary hand would deal sneak attack and other persision damage. 8. Feats miring the new TWF feats would be made to allow for more attacks from TWF and other persision damage.
Lawlicron 07-11-07, 03:06 PM	Then and only then I think the problem with TWF will be solved! This is my first time hearing of this 'problem' with TWF.
tarkin 07-11-07, 03:16 PM	Yet another person that has no idea of the power of TWF, who gets all upset that their strength plus damaged obsessed character can not use it to get the same benefit that they would get with Two handed weapon. Look. TWF is expensive because it is hands down the single most powerfull combat technique ever invented in d20 The fact that your particular build can not benefit from it is pointless. You want to build a kick @ss TWF? Try this:. 1. Admit that it WILL require feats. Take some levels of Fighter class or Ranger. Without it, you will never get anywhere. 2. Realize that you ARE sacrificing damage to get extra attacks. So either go looking for the things that grant HUGE damage to every attack or go non-damage based attacks. ----------- My personal list of TWF builds that make a mockery of those fools using Two Handed weapons Tripping/Sundering/Disarming with a double weapon (or Spiked Chain + Armor Spikes). Yeah, I do less damage to you. So what, I am not doing damage to you till you are on the floor, crying with no weapons you can use. Sneak Attack. Yeah I got levels of Rogue etc. You got a problem with that? I will make you an offer you can't refuse: a 6ft deep new home. Expensive magic weapons. Yeah, I put 1/2 my gold into two seperate magic items - both weapons. They are adamantine and Wounding etc. I might not do a lot of base weapon damage, but hey that Con damage really sucks. Expensive Poisoned quickdarable melee weapons. It is just so nasty the way every time I successfully poison you, I drop that weapon and draw another poisoned one. How many Fort saves did I make you do this round?
Spikes01k 07-11-07, 03:17 PM	This is my first time hearing of this 'problem' with TWF. It has been a common problem people on this board has talked about form time to time. Each weapon gets a minus to hit which is nearly impossible to get rid of. The damage you deal out is usually nothing compared to one two handed weapon. So you can't hit as offten, and you deal less damage, just doesn't balance out for the feat/s you have to spend to get the extra attack and extra costs for weapons.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 03:19 PM	Ok I am just completely ant totally ****** with TWF. I am disheartened and crushed with the obvious favoritism of the simple 4 feat two handed weapon wonder (Power Attack, Cleave, Great CLeave, Leap Attack). My Dear God really. Where I need to spend multiple feats for a sub par fighting style. Either I'm being really silly, or I don't remember Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave being extraordinarily better than TWF. Maybe your DM needs to throw more high HP enemies at you. :P 1. Axe ever other two weapon feat. Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon fighting would count as one feat! So you're saying that you should be able to make a 1st level character that can TWF and do 3 attacks with a full attack? And how is REMOVING feats going to make a fighting style more powerful? 2. I would make both the primary and secondary weapon do full damage from strength. Flavorwise, this doesn't work. You're naturally going to hit more weakly with your off-hand. Mechanics-wise, the 1/2 strength works out so that your total strength bonus for hitting with 2 weapons is equal to your strength bonus for hitting with a single 2-handed weapon. 3. I would reduce the penalties for wielding by 1, and only 1 I don't know what to say against this. 4. I would make ambidexterity granting a +1 bonus to hit as a feat. ...You're JOKING about bringing ambidexterity back right? You do realize that between 3.0 and 3.5 they made ambidexterity and TWF a single feat? 5. Bonuses to TWF that where ment to reduce the penatlies would instead just give bonuses to hit. Not sure what you're saying here. 6. I would have a simple set of weapon augment crystals that cost a total of 600 gp (300 each). You would put a weapon enhancment on this crystal and it would cost x1.5 gp more per each, but it would apply to two weapons, if not all weapons you attack with that have the 300 gp crystal. (It would only apply to weapons wielded by the same body, bodies that could break into multiple diffrent parts would not count. The cheapest magic weapons cost 2000 gp. Something tells me we have a game balance issue when you're selling magical enhancements for 600 gp.
Pentar 07-11-07, 03:20 PM	What Tarkin said (Hahaha, BTW!) and check out the Duskblade character class too. By level 13, they get to apply their spells to their melee attacks for full attack actions. So imagine a Touch of Idiocy with TWF... Assuming all 5 attacks hit... 5d6 INT/WIS/CHA damage. kk, thanks for coming out.
Spikes01k 07-11-07, 03:20 PM	Yet another person that has no idea of the power of TWF, who gets all upset that their strength plus damaged obsessed character can not use it to get the same benefit that they would get with Two handed weapon. Look. TWF is expensive because it is hands down the single most powerfull combat technique ever invented in d20 The fact that your particular build can not benefit from it is pointless. You want to build a kick @ss TWF? Try this:. 1. Admit that it WILL require feats. Take some levels of Fighter class or Ranger. Without it, you will never get anywhere. 2. Realize that you ARE sacrificing damage to get extra attacks. So either go looking for the things that grant HUGE damage to every attack or go non-damage based attacks. ----------- My personal list of TWF builds that make a mockery of those fools using Two Handed weapons Tripping/Sundering/Disarming with a double weapon (or Spiked Chain + Armor Spikes). Yeah, I do less damage to you. So what, I am not doing damage to you till you are on the floor, crying with no weapons you can use. Sneak Attack. Yeah I got levels of Rogue etc. You got a problem with that? I will make you an offer you can't refuse: a 6ft deep new home. Expensive magic weapons. Yeah, I put 1/2 my gold into two seperate magic items - both weapons. They are adamantine and Wounding etc. I might not do a lot of base weapon damage, but hey that Con damage really sucks. Expensive Poisoned quickdarable melee weapons. It is just so nasty the way every time I successfully poison you, I drop that weapon and draw another poisoned one. How many Fort saves did I make you do this round? OK I see your point here. Rogue levels would help to balance things out a little bit. But even then you sacrificing BaB for an extremely situational bonus to damage.
TheCobra 07-11-07, 03:32 PM	Assuming all 5 attacks hit... 5d6 INT/WIS/CHA damage. kk, thanks for coming out. Even if you think you can affect the same target multiple times with that Duskblade ability, penalties from the same source don't stack. Spell storing does work well with Two-Weapon Fighting, though. If you believe customer service, you can even use as many metamagic feats on the stored spell as you want. How about maximized combust times two for 160 points of fire damage?
Pentar 07-11-07, 03:36 PM	Even if you think you can affect the same target multiple times with that Duskblade ability, penalties from the same source don't stack. Spell storing does work well with Two-Weapon Fighting, though. If you believe customer service, you can even use as many metamagic feats on the stored spell as you want. How maximized combust times two for 160 points of fire damage? Ahh yes, Touch of Idiocy is a penalty, not damage. That's what I get for listening to my friend without verifying the info. for myself!! Anyway, but the idea remains the same. Even 5 attacks with CL 13 Shocking Grasp is painful enough. :)
Spikes01k 07-11-07, 03:37 PM	Either I'm being really silly, or I don't remember Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave being extraordinarily better than TWF. Maybe your DM needs to throw more high HP enemies at you. :P Yes I have faught a number of things with lots of HP, but eventually every thing we fight have some sort of Damage Reduction which stops TWFers in their tracks. So you're saying that you should be able to make a 1st level character that can TWF and do 3 attacks with a full attack? And how is REMOVING feats going to make a fighting style more powerful? No, more specifically when the meet the requirements for Imp-TWF they would get it, not before. Flavorwise, this doesn't work. You're naturally going to hit more weakly with your off-hand. Mechanics-wise, the 1/2 strength works out so that your total strength bonus for hitting with 2 weapons is equal to your strength bonus for hitting with a single 2-handed weapon. The idea at this point is that when you take up maybe ambidexterity both weapons would technically be your primary. To exspand on what I said before. I don't know what to say against this. Ok, thats fine. ...You're JOKING about bringing ambidexterity back right? You do realize that between 3.0 and 3.5 they made ambidexterity and TWF a single feat? I would bring it back in name only really, also adding what I stated earlier in this post. Not sure what you're saying here. Ok, will explane more now that I am not as mad. Things like exotic weapon tricks from the exotic weapons master that grants a reduction in wielding two exotic weapons of the same type. The same would be with reductions from ambidexterity's bonus from the PrC Tempest, which you missed; it is named ambidexterity. The cheapest magic weapons cost 2000 gp. Something tells me we have a game balance issue when you're selling magical enhancements for 600 gp. Actually I would be selling the enhancements at a cost of x1.5 +600 their normal to two weapons, on second thought I would need to have a different set for another two weapons. (They give much worse to natural and unarmed attacks, an item in savage species book)
Pallin Rahl 07-11-07, 03:44 PM	TWF is weak? Tell that to the Rogue that's flanking you. ...but do it quickly, you won't be alive much longer. ;) --- Plain and simple, both TWF and 2h weapon use are effective. Which will be more effective for your character depends on where your extra damage is coming from.
malignor 07-11-07, 03:48 PM	TWF and 2HF are not mutually exclusive. - Buy a 2-handed weapon and some spiked armor. - Take levels in Monk, and use a quarterstaff as a 2-handed weapon. TWF it with flurry of unarmed strikes. - Buy a 2-handed weapon and take Improved Unarmed Strike. Also, I'd like to point out a few feats and effects that are far superior when applied to a TWF character. - Arcane Strike - Divine Power - Bard's Inspire Courage - Anything that gives a bonus to all weapon damage.
Pallin Rahl 07-11-07, 03:51 PM	Yeah... if you wanted to mix both attack styles, there are currently ways to do it. Revenant Blade, anyone? :)
Unholy_King 07-11-07, 03:53 PM	OK I see your point here. Rogue levels would help to balance things out a little bit. But even then you sacrificing BaB for an extremely situational bonus to damage. By extremely situational, you mean 80% of the time? It's not hard at all to achieve iterative sneak attacks.
TheCobra 07-11-07, 03:53 PM	Arcane Strike Not really, no. You have to burn two spells to give both weapons the bonus. If you use it on a two-handed weapon, the bonus to hit can turn into more damage with Power Attack. Divine Power Uh, why?
Spikes01k 07-11-07, 03:54 PM	TWF and 2HF are not mutually exclusive. - Buy a 2-handed weapon and some spiked armor. - Take levels in Monk, and use a quarterstaff as a 2-handed weapon. TWF it with flurry of unarmed strikes. - Buy a 2-handed weapon and take Improved Unarmed Strike. Also, I'd like to point out a few feats and effects that are far superior when applied to a TWF character. - Arcane Strike - Divine Power - Bard's Inspire Courage - Anything that gives a bonus to all weapon damage. Yeah those are decent, however Arcane Strike only works with one weapon. It should apply to both sense you apply to all unarmed and natural attacks, but it doesn't which what just set me off on this rant, to the pure favoritism of two weapon fighting and natural/unarmed attacks. What does Divine Power, and could you list some things that apply to all weapon damage? I have not see any of these.
Windspear 07-11-07, 03:55 PM	I always take TWF is to cover up lack of melee for range-based fighters (which I really like). When using two short swords, in lvl 1 (if you take a human fighter) you get 3 feats, which are: Weapon Focus[Greatbow], Weapon Finesse, TWF. And those are pretty good stats: Greatbow[d10,+6(1BAB, 4DEX, 1WF), X3], 2 Short Swords[d6, +3(1BAB, 4DEX, -2TWF) 19-20/X2] each. That's a pretty nice cover-up. It also works good for rangers, but I don't play these...
Twylyght 07-11-07, 04:01 PM	Yeah that a big catch here. If your strength is high enough that you benefit more from two-handed fighting, do that. If your bonus damage is from other sources that dont benefit from being used two-handed, that where two-weapon fighting shines. Divine Power is a cleric spell that raises their attack bonus to a fighters and grants +6 STR. I thnk he meant Divine Might, which is a feat that lets you spend a turning attempt to gain a bonus to all weapon damage equal to your charisma modifier for 1 round, or divine favor a spell which grants a +1/3 caster levels to attack and damage rolls for 1 min However a cleric with divine favor and divine power cast and two-weapon fighting with a quarterstaff with spikes on it is going to brutalize things.
Spikes01k 07-11-07, 04:08 PM	Yeah that a big catch here. If your strength is high enough that you benefit more from two-handed fighting, do that. If your bonus damage is from other sources that dont benefit from being used two-handed, that where two-weapon fighting shines. With the exception of persion damage like sneak attack and skirmish. Would work better, but I still see things working if you do have a two handed weapon.
BW0222 07-11-07, 04:40 PM	Spikes01k, Ok I am just completely ant totally ****** with TWF. You are joking right? I am disheartened and crushed with the obvious favoritism of the simple 4 feat two handed weapon wonder (Power Attack, Cleave, Great CLeave, Leap Attack). And I'm dishearned and crushed by all the feats which favour TWF (improved two weapon fighting, two weapon defense, weapon specialization, rapid shot, shield bash, etc.) My Dear God really. Where I need to spend multiple feats for a sub par fighting style. Ok so I want to use two weapon, or even a sword and a shield, ok I need to spend a feat for one second attack, which brings down the attack of both weapons and the secondary only gives me 1/2 str damage. But you get an extra attack? Great sword does say 2d6+6. TWF does 1d8+4 + 1d6+2. Your total damage is about the same -- expecially if you factor in criticals. The only difference is that your chance of doing some damage is actually improved. Advantages of TWF. 1. You chance of doing some damage is greatly increased. 2. It can be used in ranged combat. You can throw two hand-axes or daggers. 3. You can do multiple types of damage. (Slashing and bludgeoning) 4. You can carry weapons of different types to get through different DRs. 5. You can drop one weapon to get a free hand and still threaten. For example, to get out a potion or drag someone to safety. With a two-handed weapon you are effectively weaponless opening yourself up to grapple, sunder, coup-attacks on the unconcious person, etc. 6. Feats and abilities which add damage can work on all your attacks. For example weapon specialization worths on both your attacks. Weapon specialization, improved critical, sneak attack, etc. 7. You have a light weapon in hand so getting caught in a grapple doesn't completely nerf you. 8. Light weapons are more useful for finessing. 9. There are many double weapons in which one can attack two handed 10. You can spread damage multiple opponents. If something has 4hp left, you don't have to waste 24hp of damage from a two handed weapon. You can finish him with your light and to your primary on a nearby opponent. etc., etc. Both have advantages and disadvantages. If I EVER run a game I would consider changing the following, among other things. ... I have found nothing wrong with the rules. I've seen TWF types easily out damage two handed fighters. I've seen monks with quarterstaffs doing four attacks per round at 2nd-level. I've seen a 9th-level rogue with ITWF and rapid shot do 5d4+25d6+5 damage in one round using daggers. I've seen TWF ranger/druid using flame blade and produce flame turn a troll into ash in two rounds. At mid-to-high levels the -2 is meaningless. Most monsters in the MM don't have ACs must past 20 or 25 even at APL 10+. By 10th, a front line fighter is likely +10 (BAB), +8 (str + belt), +1 (weapon focus), +1 (magical weapons). That is +20 to hit to start with. In the worst cases you have an 85% chance of hitting. TWF only reduces this to a 75% chance to hit -- and the chance he won't hit at least once is extremely low. (In the case of flanking, a few bless spells, heroism, etc. both could be well over 90% anyway). Lets look at it this way... two 10th-level front line fighters go up against an AC 25 opponent. One has just TWF. The other Power Attack. The TWF has a 10% less chance of hitting in return for 1d6+11 damage (average 14hp). Now, how much does the two handed weapon fighting PC need to power attack for in order to equal the same 14hp of damage? Humm... with two attacks, needing 7hp per attack, that would be power attacking for 3. Which means a -15% chance to hit.
Spikes01k 07-11-07, 06:09 PM	And I'm dishearned and crushed by all the feats which favour TWF (improved two weapon fighting, two weapon defense, weapon specialization, rapid shot, shield bash, etc.) But you get an extra attack? Great sword does say 2d6+6. TWF does 1d8+4 + 1d6+2. Your total damage is about the same -- expecially if you factor in criticals. The only difference is that your chance of doing some damage is actually improved. Advantages of TWF. 1. You chance of doing some damage is greatly increased. 2. It can be used in ranged combat. You can throw two hand-axes or daggers. 3. You can do multiple types of damage. (Slashing and bludgeoning) 4. You can carry weapons of different types to get through different DRs. 5. You can drop one weapon to get a free hand and still threaten. For example, to get out a potion or drag someone to safety. With a two-handed weapon you are effectively weaponless opening yourself up to grapple, sunder, coup-attacks on the unconcious person, etc. 6. Feats and abilities which add damage can work on all your attacks. For example weapon specialization worths on both your attacks. Weapon specialization, improved critical, sneak attack, etc. 7. You have a light weapon in hand so getting caught in a grapple doesn't completely nerf you. 8. Light weapons are more useful for finessing. 9. There are many double weapons in which one can attack two handed 10. You can spread damage multiple opponents. If something has 4hp left, you don't have to waste 24hp of damage from a two handed weapon. You can finish him with your light and to your primary on a nearby opponent. etc., etc. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I have found nothing wrong with the rules. I've seen TWF types easily out damage two handed fighters. I've seen monks with quarterstaffs doing four attacks per round at 2nd-level. I've seen a 9th-level rogue with ITWF and rapid shot do 5d4+25d6+5 damage in one round using daggers. I've seen TWF ranger/druid using flame blade and produce flame turn a troll into ash in two rounds. At mid-to-high levels the -2 is meaningless. Most monsters in the MM don't have ACs must past 20 or 25 even at APL 10+. By 10th, a front line fighter is likely +10 (BAB), +8 (str + belt), +1 (weapon focus), +1 (magical weapons). That is +20 to hit to start with. In the worst cases you have an 85% chance of hitting. TWF only reduces this to a 75% chance to hit -- and the chance he won't hit at least once is extremely low. (In the case of flanking, a few bless spells, heroism, etc. both could be well over 90% anyway). Lets look at it this way... two 10th-level front line fighters go up against an AC 25 opponent. One has just TWF. The other Power Attack. The TWF has a 10% less chance of hitting in return for 1d6+11 damage (average 14hp). Now, how much does the two handed weapon fighting PC need to power attack for in order to equal the same 14hp of damage? Humm... with two attacks, needing 7hp per attack, that would be power attacking for 3. Which means a -15% chance to hit. Your facing a creature in higher levels that has a high AC and DR, your weapons deal less damage each, so DR is a greater problem than a two handed weapon so you primary and to a greater degree your secondary have a greater difficulty of hitting due to the minuses for using two weapons! So no only do you have harder time doing damage with things that have DR, and if it has a decent AC your extra attacks become even less of worth. Yeah your over all damage is about the same but you need to hit with both attacks at a minus and are more hindered by DR. Sure you can buy more weapons to compensate for DR but then again you would need to be able to meet the requirements of alignment, for alignment DR, and again you need to pay all this in DOUBLE sense your using two weapons, plus a lot of things have multiple DR in higher levels so that is even fouled. Your much better going and getting one two handed weapon with a +3 enhancement that changes material type to meet DR. Plus if there is an alignment DR you can power through it MUCH easier with a two handed weapon. Also in situations where your facing a bunch of mooks that have low AC and HP cleave and great cleave, give them extra attacks at full bonus to hit at which point you already killed one of them with the same bonus. Well lets look at things like this. you get two attacks at -2 to hit, one doing 1d8+2, second doing 1d6+1 a great sword does 2d6 +3 damage but NO minus to hit and on top of that. As you spend feats you can increase the value of your minuses to hit with each feat you take. Power Attack, Leap Attack, and also the number of hits with low AC/HP opponents with with feats like cleave and great cleave. This is the basic foundation of two weapon fighting. If you advance in two weapon fighting you get additional hits, still with the -2 at lower attack bonuses which have progressively less chance of hitting, and take up a feat for each progressively less valuable feat. The only saving grace is if you can perform sneak attacks or other damage of that kind that applies to all attacks. However you can buy two weapon defense feats which help you defend your self better than a two handed weapon wielder, which are fine by themselves but those require the use of those horrible feats that are increasingly more useless. So bascilcy no fighter type, with the exception of maybe swashbuckler should ever go for TWF because unless you get a lot of innate bonuses to all your damage, your simply putting feats into a feat change that with each step adds more attacks to lesser base Bab hits which always have a -2 to hit. I think that covers everything, but I probably missed something.
Karzach 07-11-07, 06:10 PM	Lets look at it this way... two 10th-level front line fighters go up against an AC 25 opponent. One has just TWF. The other Power Attack. The TWF has a 10% less chance of hitting in return for 1d6+11 damage (average 14hp). Now, how much does the two handed weapon fighting PC need to power attack for in order to equal the same 14hp of damage? Humm... with two attacks, needing 7hp per attack, that would be power attacking for 3. Which means a -15% chance to hit. Just to clarify, using Elite Array, our 2HFer has STR 15 (the only stat he really needs for his combo) base, and our TWF has DEX 15 STR 14. Making some equipment assumptions, it probably looks something like this: Against AC 25 2HF. STR: 19 (assuming level up benefits at 4th and 8th applied, as well as +2 strength gloves) (+4) Weapon: +2 (it might be +3, but I'll go on the side of caution here) Greatsword Feat: Power Attack Attack Bonus: +16/+11 = 10 Base + 4 Strength + 2 enhancement Damage: 2d6 + 8 (15 dmg average) Chance to hit: 60%/35% AVG damage: 9 / 5.25 (14.25) TWF. STR: 16 (assumes +2 Strength gloves) (+3) DEX: 17 (assumes level up benefits applied from 4th and 8th)(+3) Weapons: +2 Long Sword (Primary), +2 Short Sword (Off hand). Feat: Two Weapon Fight, Improved Two Weapon fighting (just for some extra benefit). Attack Bonus: Primary: +13/+8 = 10 Base + 3 Strength + 2 Enhancement -2 TWF penalty Off hand: +13/+8 = 10 Base + 3 Strenght + 2 Enhancement -2 TWF penalty Damage: Primary: 1d8 + 5 (9.5) Offhand: 1d6 + 3 (6.5) Chance to hit: Primary: 45%/20% Offhand: 45%/20% AVG DMG: Primary: 4.275/1.9 (6.175) Offhand: 2.925/1.3 (4.225) Total: 10.4 That's using incomplete feat choices, and an estimated guess on what weaponry would be available at that level (guessed a little high for TWFighting, and a little low for THF). Also, that's assuming full attacks. Without full attacks, the TWF doesn't even compare. NOTE: Average damage is the average damage of 100 attacks, taking into account misschance. Individual rounds will favor one style over the other depending on dice rolls.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 06:17 PM	I think that covers everything, but I probably missed something. Yes. You are assuming that everything your fighter is going to face falls into that range that is "easy to hit" for a single weapon but "hard to hit" for TWF. While it may be easier on a single weapon in the middle ranges of ACs, at the low AC and high AC ends of the spectrum, TWF wins out. At the low end of the spectrum, if the AC is so pitifully low that both TWF and Two handed weapon can hit it easily, TWF wins, because the sum of both weapons' worth of damage will essentially always be greater than a single two-handed weapon. Take the greatsword vs. longsword/shortsword as a simple example: greatsword damage: 2d6+1.5str (ignoring specialization or anything) longsword/shortsword: 1d8+str+1d6+0.5str The longsword/shortsword combination is slightly better. At the other end of the spectrum, you have ACs that are so impossibly hard to hit that we can assume only a natural 20 will hit. At this point, it is clear that the TWF wins because more rolls = more chances for natural 20s. To Karzach: What AC are you trying to hit? Maybe I missed it, but I don't see what AC you're going against? And yes, it did just occurred to me that the TWFer would have less Strength. EDIT: Ah, I see, AC 25. How does the test hold up, though, against AC 8 or AC 40?
Karzach 07-11-07, 06:23 PM	it's in the quote, versus AC 25. I'll edit it in the post. I only chose AC 25 because the person I quoted used it. I'd probably find the average of CR 10 ACs and use that. later though, don't really have my books on hand currently.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 06:26 PM	I edited above, but just in case you didn't see: Test the scenarios against AC 8 and AC 40. The results might be different.
Frozeman 07-11-07, 06:43 PM	Sure DR is a big problem for TWFers but damage compared to a THFer isn't as bad without it with a good build. Let's assume human fighter 4 for both ignoring how much a single level of rogue helps TWF. And assuming 18 strength and 16 dex. For a Basic Core build Two hander: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Weapon Spec, Cleave MW Greatsword +10 2d6+8 avg 15 2 point PA +8 2d6+12 avg 19 4 point PA +6 2d6+16 avg 23 TWFer: WF, WS, CE, Imp Trip, PA, Cleave MW Shortwords +8 1d6+6 avg 9.5 1d6+4 avg 7.5 total 17 Two weapon fighter falls a little short on damage but gets more chances to trip, and a downed foe mitigates his hit penalties significantly, and he will crit slightly more often, But core is not friendly to a TWF add one feat out of core and: TWFer: WF, WS, Oversize TWF, Exotic WP, CE, Imp Trip MW Bastard Swords +8 1d10+6 avg 11.5 +8 1d10+4 avg 9.5 and if you continue up the spec tree and maybe add a rogue level or three... still has trouble with DR, you might need carry around some extra weapons to overcome that, and the THFer will always outdamage you on a charge, but definately viable
Karzach 07-11-07, 06:57 PM	Against AC 40 2HF. STR: 19 (assuming level up benefits at 4th and 8th applied, as well as +2 strength gloves) (+4) Weapon: +2 (it might be +3, but I'll go on the side of caution here) Greatsword Feat: Power Attack Attack Bonus: +16/+11 = 10 Base + 4 Strength + 2 enhancement Damage: 2d6 + 8 (15 dmg average) Chance to hit: 5%/5% AVG damage: .75 / .75 (1.5) PA of 10: DMG: 2d6 + 28 (35) Chance to hit: 5%/5% AVG damage: 1.75/1.75 (3.5) TWF. STR: 16 (assumes +2 Strength gloves) (+3) DEX: 17 (assumes level up benefits applied from 4th and 8th)(+3) Weapons: +2 Long Sword (Primary), +2 Short Sword (Off hand). Feat: Two Weapon Fight, Improved Two Weapon fighting (just for some extra benefit). Attack Bonus: Primary: +13/+8 = 10 Base + 3 Strength + 2 Enhancement -2 TWF penalty Off hand: +13/+8 = 10 Base + 3 Strenght + 2 Enhancement -2 TWF penalty Damage: Primary: 1d8 + 5 (9.5) Offhand: 1d6 + 3 (6.5) Chance to hit: Primary: 5%/5% Offhand: 5%/5% AVG DMG: Primary: .475/.475 (.95) Offhand: .325/.325 (.65) Total: 1.6 NOTE: In my original post, I did not using Power Attack at all. In this instance, I showed damage using Power Attack, as there's no reason why the fighter in question shouldn't use it. Against AC 8 2HF. STR: 19 (assuming level up benefits at 4th and 8th applied, as well as +2 strength gloves) (+4) Weapon: +2 (it might be +3, but I'll go on the side of caution here) Greatsword Feat: Power Attack Attack Bonus: +16/+11 = 10 Base + 4 Strength + 2 enhancement Damage: 2d6 + 8 (15 dmg average) Chance to hit: 95%/95% AVG damage: 14.25 / 14.25 (28.5) PA of 9. damage: 2d6 + 26 (33) Attack Bonus: +7/+2 Chance to hit: 95%/75% Avg Damage: 31.35/24.75 (56.1) TWF. STR: 16 (assumes +2 Strength gloves) (+3) DEX: 17 (assumes level up benefits applied from 4th and 8th)(+3) Weapons: +2 Long Sword (Primary), +2 Short Sword (Off hand). Feat: Two Weapon Fight, Improved Two Weapon fighting (just for some extra benefit). Attack Bonus: Primary: +13/+8 = 10 Base + 3 Strength + 2 Enhancement -2 TWF penalty Off hand: +13/+8 = 10 Base + 3 Strenght + 2 Enhancement -2 TWF penalty Damage: Primary: 1d8 + 5 (9.5) Offhand: 1d6 + 3 (6.5) Chance to hit: Primary: 95%/95% Offhand: 95%/95% AVG DMG: Primary: 9.025/9.025 (18.05) Offhand: 6.175/6.175 (12.35) Total: 30.4 NOTE: Again, use of Power Attack.
Karzach 07-11-07, 06:59 PM	I edited above, but just in case you didn't see: Test the scenarios against AC 8 and AC 40. The results might be different. The biggest thing you forgot was the nature of power attack, which tends to rape in either situation.
Aryxbez 07-11-07, 07:11 PM	Well at this Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=879400) , the whole weapon styles are being discussed. Also here is my ideas for Two-weapon Fighting. Penalties start at -4, unsure if this only applies to off-hand, or both. I guess which ever you would find more balanced. Also you can normally only make one attack in the off-hand. So the penalties get lowered with the TWF feat. Which lowers the penalty by 2, and makes you gain a number of attacks equal to what you BaB will allow. As thus, Improved and Greater are now gone. Also I have created my own version of the Ambidexterity feat, which is as follows: Amnidexterity : Prequisites; Dex 18, Two-weapon Fighting, Benefit:When wielding two weapons, the Penalties are reduced by 1, with having -3 with onehanded weapon or -1 penalties with a light weapon in the off-hand. Also the off-hand now deals normal strength damage. Which now make the Penalties at -1, which having a light weapon in the off-hand now lowers it by 1 = Zero Penalties! Of course it costed you 2 feats to do so, so it was somewhat costy without being too bad. Especially for the Fighter (I use the Fighter fix made by Seerow by the way).
zorgling25 07-11-07, 07:18 PM	The biggest thing you forgot was the nature of power attack, which tends to rape in either situation. Ah, true. I suppose the TWF could also have Power attack, but then we have the issue of other feats to fill the gap... Aryxbez: Flavorwise, Ambidexterity is rolled into Two Weapon Fighting. Ambidexterity was a feat in 3.0, and its effect was combined with TWFs.
Aryxbez 07-11-07, 07:25 PM	Aryxbez: Flavorwise, Ambidexterity is rolled into Two Weapon Fighting. Ambidexterity was a feat in 3.0, and its effect was combined with TWFs. I am fully aware, I have just now remade the feat to make the penalties less and give back the str to off-hand. I personally believe my feat upholds the flavor of it, at the same time, unsuring TWF is something hard to master, unless of course you are packing a light weapon.
Luminosity 07-11-07, 07:38 PM	7. In response to Tarkin, I would sadly have to make that only attacks with primary hand would deal sneak attack and other persision damage. You want to balance your Fighter against other Fighters by nerfing the bajeezus out of Rogues? **** you, man.
malignor 07-11-07, 07:44 PM	What does Divine Power, and could you list some things that apply to all weapon damage? I have not see any of these.My bad. I meant Divine Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#divineMight). And Bardic music damage enhancements also work. And any spell that simply gives a straight bonus to damage.
StevenO 07-11-07, 07:45 PM	Here is my piece. Two Weapon fighting is generally fine as it is. I would however combine Improved and Greater TWF into a single feat that allow a character to use itterative attacks with the off hand; you still need TWF to access the basics but combining the improvements that just grant extra attacks shouldn't be a problem. My problem with TWF is not TWF but how poorly it treats Double Weapons. With a few exceptions wielding a double weapon takes an exotic weapon feat but I'm not conviced that is any better than taking Oversized TWF and using two one handed martial weapons instead. My variation it to simply treat both ends of a double weapon as primary, one-handed weapons when dealling with bonuses and just use the "treat as a light weapon" with regards to the penalty. This makes the "off" end of a double weapon a little better than OSTWF would give because you'd apply full STR instead of half although that could be reduced to half if desired; it makes the "off" end shine compared to treating it completely as a light weapon as you could now Power Attack for full damage instead of losing all of it.
EyeHunter 07-11-07, 07:54 PM	From personal experience: :ahem: In real life, :rant:IT'S EASIER TO FIGHT WITH TWO OF THE SAME WEAPON THAN TO FIGHT WITH A LONG AND A SHORT WEAPON!!!:rant: :banghead: :headexplo :hoppingma
malignor 07-11-07, 07:56 PM	If I were to change TWF, I would simply make all the iterative attacks require the one feat, but iterative attacks still have the dexterity requirement (like Dex17 for 2nd off-hand and Dex19 for 3rd off-hand attacks). Improved TWF and Greater TWF would be changed to each reduce the penalty of TWF by 1. Thus, if you have a light off-hand weapon and burned the three feats to get Greater TWF, there's no to-hit penalty at all. Or... TWF: Get extra attacks with off-hand at listed penalty, depending on BAB and on Dex. ITWF: penalty for TWF is reduced by 2 GTWF: off-hand gets full strength bonus to damage
DinwathSereglin 07-11-07, 08:53 PM	3.5 Ambidexterity ( I just made this up, btw)- Allows full STR damage bonus with off hand. Add PA to that and you can dish out some pain. Of course, at low levels it will still be harder to hit because of the penalties, but that may be the point of TWF. Cooler, better, but harder to do. You never think of guys dual-wielding that are novices or are still mastering their craft. The image of a guy with two weapons implies skill, training, and experience.
zorgling25 07-11-07, 10:42 PM	Now here's an interesting question: Is TWF worth it for ranged attacks? With Dex as the primary stat, you don't need to be juggling two stats, and there is no power attack to throw a bunch of damage on to the single two-handed weapon side.
Droma 07-11-07, 11:25 PM	Any person going TWF without precision based dmg and the feat vexing flanker is kind of dumb anyway. Vexing flanker completely eliminates that -2 from TWF and gives you a net +2 to hit when flanking and TWF. Add precision based dmg and your doing more and hitting the same amount as the average 2HF. Rouge 3/Swordsage 2/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 15 TWF, vexing flanker, shadowblade, and daring outlaw. That gives you precision + int + dex based dmg and the option of flanking as long as you and your ally are attacking the same target due to island of blades and assassins stances.
Lawlicron 07-12-07, 01:45 AM	It has been a common problem people on this board has talked about form time to time. Each weapon gets a minus to hit which is nearly impossible to get rid of. The damage you deal out is usually nothing compared to one two handed weapon. So you can't hit as offten, and you deal less damage, just doesn't balance out for the feat/s you have to spend to get the extra attack and extra costs for weapons. I just need to make a rebuttal to this, even if this is old news. I know how TWF works, I know what it does. I'm was just saying your *TWF RANT* is retarded.
BW0222 07-12-07, 03:10 AM	Spikes01k, Your facing a creature in higher levels that has a high AC and DR, Name one APL 10 creature (CR 8-12) with an AC over 25. ... arrow hawk (CR 8, AC 22), athach (CR 8, AC 20), abyssal greater basilisk (CR 12, AC 17), behir (CR 8, AC 20), bodak (CR 8, AC 20), etc. I'll stop there. There are none. Honestly, at APL 10, you will hit almost at will. And they pretty much hit you at will, baring focusing solidly on defense. As for DR, by 10th-level, you typically have most types covered. Silver, cold iron, budgeoning, etc. are easier for a TWF because it is easier to carry an extra silver dagger (and fight with them) than it is do carry around an extra silvered two handed sword. But, yes... a two handed weapon is better at forcing your way through weird types of DR. It is also better at attacking objects with hardness. Although, once the TWF realizes this, he can drop his light weapon and grasp his main weapon in two hands. I'm saying that each doesn't have advantages, I'm just keeping a perspective on how often each of the advantages come into play and how easy or difficult it is for the other to overcome it. Well lets look at things like this. you get two attacks at -2 to hit, one doing 1d8+2, second doing 1d6+1 a great sword does 2d6 +3 damage but NO minus to hit and on top of that. Well, it depends. If you are fighting 4hp goblins, I'd rather have the two attacks. If the first attack drops him, and I need to throw a hand-axe at the evil cleric coup-de-gracing a fellow PC, I'd rather have TWF. If I'm in a grapple, I'd rather have TWF. If I'm trying to sunder the scroll of meteor swarm in the evil wizard's hand, I'd rather have two attacks than one -- since my actual chance of at least one attack hitting is much better with two attacks. As you spend feats you can increase the value of your minuses to hit with each feat you take. Power Attack, Leap Attack, and also the number of hits with low AC/HP opponents with with feats like cleave and great cleave. Except that cleave and great cleave favor TWF just as much. If a creature only has 4hp left, TWF is much more likely to actually allow you to make use of cleave. Two chances of 40% are still more likely to work than one chance at 50%. The only saving grace is if you can perform sneak attacks or other damage of that kind that applies to all attacks. Except I already listed nine other advantages and could have continued. So bascilcy no fighter type, with the exception of maybe swashbuckler should ever go for TWF because unless you get a lot of innate bonuses to all your damage, your simply putting feats into a feat change that with each step adds more attacks to lesser base Bab hits which always have a -2 to hit. Says who? I don't see TWF fighter having any problems hitting, dealing with DR, or dishing out insane amounts of damage. Karzach, Just to clarify, using Elite Array, our 2HFer has STR 15 (the only stat he really needs for his combo) base, and our TWF has DEX 15 STR 14. Making some equipment assumptions, it probably looks something like this: ... Clarify what? I already gave you the terms of the comparison. (10th-level fighters, 18 str, +4 strength belt, +1 weapon(s), weapon focus, and weapon specialization). Both are exactly the same, except one has power attack and one has TWF. Not that I disagree with your comparision, but... you have changed more than one factor, so folks can argue with it. For example, you not have two feats to the TWF and fudged stats? How would the effect be different if the person had cleave or improved critical in place of the others ITWF. The basis for any comparision of a single item (in this case a feat) is that you make the two sides identical, except for the thing you are comparing. Against AC 40 Easy. "Excluse me Mr. DM, but what APL are we playing at? Isn't a great wyrm a bit of an issue at APL 10?" Lets get real folks. The only creatures in the MM with those ACs are CR 20+ dragons. NPCs would need magic items well exceeding the gold limits to get AC that high. About the highest AC you will see at APL 10 is about 25. Maybe someone could buff themselves to 30 or so, but a good dispell magic solves that and that would be rare. In any case, for the one in a thousand combats where something might have an AC like that, upon realizing this, your best bet is to toss a flask of oil on it, "aid another" to increase someones AC, run away and come back when their buffs are down, come in with insane buffs (+1 bless, +1 bard song, +2 heroism, +1 prayer, +2 aid another, etc.), grapple it, disarm it, sunder his weapons, trip him, wait for a dispell magic, go total defense and wait for the wizard to touch attack him to death, etc., etc. Honestly, AC 20-25 is that standard range you are likely to see at APL 10. Combats in the AC 30 range would be exceptional. 40 would be a clear sign to try other tactics.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 03:23 AM	Easy. "Excluse me Mr. DM, but what APL are we playing at? Isn't a great wyrm a bit of an issue at APL 10?" I was trying to make a point. As stated before, I was trying to prove the point that against ridiculously low or ridiculously high ACs, TWF would take the day. Unfortunately, it doesn't. The fact that TWF and Imp. TWF take up two extra feats means that the single-weapon fighter has room for two MORE feats. In this case, he chose the simplified (albeit unrealistic) example of power attack being one of the feats that the TWFer wouldn't have. With the Power Attack, the single-weapon fighter wins, since he gets a better average damage out by taking a power attack instead of two weapon fighting. IMO, in a pure damage argument, the single-weapon fighter beats, or at least fights to a draw against the TWFer, if for no reason other than the fact that the TWFer has to juggle two stats. However, TWF shines in situations where the goal is not pure weapon damage, and simply having extra attacks helps (as already mentioned, repeated tripping, poison, sneak attacks, etc.).
Steely_Dan 07-12-07, 06:03 AM	Look. TWF is expensive because it is hands down the single most powerfull combat technique ever invented in d20 Opinion/assertion/your experience. In my group's experience, THF and TWF are both equally viable, depending on the build.