Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Astron the Wizard 10-09-07, 09:07 PM	Well first of all, hello. I'd like to say this isn't a big problem so much as indecision. I'm whipping up a character for a campaign and decided to go for a classical halfling rogue. I haven't played one of those in a while. My problem is, I seriously have no idea of what kind of equipment to buy. I'm 5th level, and have 5,206 gp to spend. Besides some standard adventuring equipment and Masterwork Thieve's tools, all I bought was weapons. I have a MW dagger, a MW light crossbow, and a +1 rapier, plus 30 bolts. So what else do I get? I'm having trouble deciding what will be useful. If you guys need more details, just ask. I've considered buying some sort of magical container like a bag of holding, a handy haversack, or a portable hole, but those are really expensive! EDIT: And before you ask, I don't know who else is going to be in the party, except that there will be 4 other people playing with me. Possibly a barbarian and a wizard (or sorcerer, or warlock. some sort of spellcasting class).
BugHunter 10-09-07, 09:40 PM	You should get a mithral shirt, dastana (A&E page 15). Since you are small then you can't carry as much so get the haversack since the weight is only 5 lbs.
Astron the Wizard 10-09-07, 09:43 PM	Ah. Thanks Bughunter, you reminded me. I did get +1 studded leather armor, but mithral shirt seemed like a good choice too. I wasn't sure which to get. The Dastana (or is it Dastanas?) do look like a good buy. I think I'll probably go with them.
Kimokeo 10-09-07, 09:52 PM	The armor class was addressed with the armor suggestion. What do you plan on doing in combat? You have the rapier so you have established the critical hit @ 15%. Your light crossbow is good for range attacks and 10% for crits. If you have hit points to survive (high CON), then you'll want to get in close. Here's a suggestion to boost your Tumble skill. Ask the DM to let you make a magic item. At 2,500gp you can have a +5 skill bonus item. I created an item called Flipper Slippers - +5 Tumble checks. The price is exactly that in the DMG for such items. That +5 will be a big boost for your tumbling rogue. You'll need it to get in or out of combat. You have low-light vision. I suggest looking for darkvision capacity. Another thing - try to get some 'grease' spell items. Up your balance skill to 5th rank. You'll have to make the balance checks, but you won't lose your Dex. Your opponents however probably don't have 5 ranks in balance which means your sneak attack will always apply while they are on the spot of grease.
BugHunter 10-09-07, 10:18 PM	Ah. Thanks Bughunter, you reminded me. I did get +1 studded leather armor, but mithral shirt seemed like a good choice too. I wasn't sure which to get. The Dastana (or is it Dastanas?) do look like a good buy. I think I'll probably go with them. The mithral shirt is better since it only weighs 5 pounds and better max dex; while the studded leather weighs 10 pounds. Armors weigh half for small races. As another poster mentioned balance ranks of 5, you can buy marbles and toss them on the floor.
silvergamgee 10-09-07, 10:39 PM	Think about something practical and obvious like gloves of dex +2 if you are going weapon finesse. You'll get a modest bonus to AC, a host of skills, your reflex save, and your attack bonus that way. You could also look at adding to your armor with an enchantment like silent moves. Also think about buying a few spell scrolls. With UMD you can be an emergency medic or buff (or just heal yourself and watch your own butt).
T_Stalker 10-10-07, 06:03 AM	I recently started with an Unseen Seer (C.M.) and went wild on my equipment list with Masterwork Tools. MW Shoes: 150gp for a +2 on Move Silent, Balance and Tumble. They're my little ninja slippers. Really cool mw glasses: +2 on Spot and Search for the low price of 100gp. A wand of grease might be a little costly, but lamp oil is a solid investment, or the marbles like BugHunter suggested.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 10-10-07, 03:01 PM	Cloak and boots of elven kind are always a +, though they are rather expensive 2500gp a piece if i remember correctly.
Astron the Wizard 10-10-07, 03:34 PM	For those who've asked, I have 23 HP. And, quite suddenly, I've learned that the DM has put a restriction on what books we can use. Here's what I can use: SRD, Core, Lords of Madness, Spell Compendium, Draconomicon, Complete Arcane. I recently started with an Unseen Seer (C.M.) and went wild on my equipment list with Masterwork Tools. MW Shoes: 150gp for a +2 on Move Silent, Balance and Tumble. They're my little ninja slippers. Really cool mw glasses: +2 on Spot and Search for the low price of 100gp. A wand of grease might be a little costly, but lamp oil is a solid investment, or the marbles like BugHunter suggested. Those shoes look pretty nice, and cheap too! The glasses look good as well. I might go with them. You made them with rules from the DMG?
WarColonel 10-10-07, 03:51 PM	Your a rogue. Acid flasks, smoke sticks, thunder stones, holy water, thieves tools and longspoon thieves tools, rope, crowbar, shovel, hammer, climber's kit, colapsable pole/ladder, grap hooks, tindertwigs, sunrods, more rope, disguise kit, forgers kit. In Complete Scoundrel, Rust monster Wand, gutmites (came in very useful against the fiendish t-rex), planar motes, torch bug paste. Hidden weapons. Half of the arms and equipt. guide. Daggers, lots of daggers. A rogue is a skill monkey as much as a flanker. Having the equiptment to use with these skills is quite profitable. Last time my party got to town and divied up our loot, my rogue spent 3500 of his 7500 share on mundane items. A rogue's equiptment is part arms and armor, part scrolls and wands, part stat boosts and special goggles etc., but at low levels like yours, mainly mundane items that have a plethora of uses.
Astron the Wizard 10-10-07, 03:58 PM	Well WarColonel, I did indeed have a lot of the stuff you mentioned, but you did give me some good ideas. Thanks! I can't find anything in the DMG which explains the creation of skill boosting items. Where is it?
WarColonel 10-10-07, 04:11 PM	Well WarColonel, I did indeed have a lot of the stuff you mentioned, but you did give me some good ideas. Thanks! I can't find anything in the DMG which explains the creation of skill boosting items. Where is it? NP, the rogue is my speciality. I have played every type of every class that has the 'rogue-ish' element. I keep a running list of what I buy at the beginning of a campaign so most players know what not to buy. For building magical skill items, I believe it is bonus^2 x 100, plus additional costs if the item provides boosts to multiple skills. Your slpiiers should cost a minimum of 1200gp, probably more like 1500gp. This is in the DMG under item creation, sorry but don't know where.
Astron the Wizard 10-10-07, 04:15 PM	So you think T_Stalker forgot to add a 0 at the end there? And what about potions? Some seem really useful, and I'm definitely considering a lot of them. Which do you think would be the most useful?
WarColonel 10-10-07, 04:43 PM	::Double Post::
WarColonel 10-10-07, 04:53 PM	Potions are useful, as are scrolls. Potions for the fact you drink = something happens. Scrolls for cheapness, mostly very specific problem solver. But a wand of cure light wounds goes a lot farther then a potion, thanks to UMD. You don't have to buy wands at 50 charges; 10 charges only 1/5 of the base price. Potions end up not being cost-effective; every time you need one, you plop done more gp. On the flip side, you can fail at casting from a wand, but just up the UMD bonus. Scrolls and wands, staves or class-/race-/diety-/alignment-/phase-of-the-moon- specific items, UMD is your friend. I am playing a Rogue/Scout in a campaign with a Paladin, Warblade, Warmage, Swordsage, and Fighter. I am the primary healer. A rogue with a good UMD skill, something around 10 at your level, can get away with using almost (excluding a % of a %) anything.
T_Stalker 10-10-07, 05:00 PM	I actually made those with the prices of PHB. Under equipment, tools and kits, p. 130: Tool, Masterwork. Grants you a fine +2 circumstance bonus for only 50 gp. I just doubled/trippled the cost, since the shoes have very soft soles that give a very good grip. (Supports 3 skills) Unfortunately, despite the different type of bonuses, they don't stack with Boots of Elvenkind. That would be silly.
Operation_Shoestring 10-10-07, 07:22 PM	I recently started with an Unseen Seer (C.M.) and went wild on my equipment list with Masterwork Tools. MW Shoes: 150gp for a +2 on Move Silent, Balance and Tumble. They're my little ninja slippers. Really cool mw glasses: +2 on Spot and Search for the low price of 100gp. Is that actually doable? i don't think the rules work that way. Clothing that gives bonuses to skills are magic items with higher cost, not relatively cheap tools, IIRC.
T_Stalker 10-11-07, 03:04 AM	I explained what rules I used in the post just above yours. Unless you have an argument why I can't use masterwork tools that way, please don't put my use of the tools I'm given by the phb in doubt. Tool, Masterwork (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack. There's nothing magical about good quality shoes/glasses/thieves tools/...
Talcon 10-11-07, 12:24 PM	it depends on what your DM calls a tool, for me shoes and a glasses don't count as tools
Platstud 10-11-07, 03:29 PM	it depends on what your DM calls a tool, for me shoes and a glasses don't count as tools Okay, make them different items, now they are the same cost for the same benefit, and slotless. That'll show the previous poster for trying to be reasonable! Hah! /sarcasm
Astron the Wizard 10-11-07, 03:33 PM	Okay, first of all, I want to thank all of you! Second of all, A final question before I let this thread fall into ruin: I have just enough gold left to buy Gloves of Dex +2. Should I go for it? And do they add +2 to your modifier, or your score?
Platstud 10-11-07, 04:47 PM	Okay, first of all, I want to thank all of you! Second of all, A final question before I let this thread fall into ruin: I have just enough gold left to buy Gloves of Dex +2. Should I go for it? And do they add +2 to your modifier, or your score? They add +2 to your total score. Which means +1 to your modifier. They are are pretty good buy, especially if you use Weapon Finesse.
1 ton ghost 10-12-07, 12:50 PM	so far all the stuff you've stipulated in your OP is sound, well adjusted and versatile. that is, you're on target for the most part and don't really need us. however, these are recommendations nonetheless: -armor: most PC rogues i've played w/ ultimately shoot for Mithral Chain Shirt for the ACP, Dex, weight. amp it +1, cheap. Darkwood Buckler, no ACP, light as Hell, why not? amp that too. you're not using TWF, yes? -weapon: the rapier you have is good, but pricey at 5th lvl. you using Weapon Finesse (recommended if Dex and Str are 2+ apart)? given you are the "wild card" in the group, consider bludgeoning and a slasher to boot, perhaps silvering one and doing something for DR to the other. be prepared. -barbed dagger (CompAdv) is the $hit, if you're keen on sneak attack -i would consider a short bow over your x-bow unless you fancy X-Bow Sniper (PHBII) for the extra action time to "shoot n' scoot". x-bow affords you more times for cover and what not though. garrote, back up daggers, etc. -tools: the H H Haversack you mentioned is a really good long term investment (there should be a rule for rummaging for small stuff/big bag in combat apart from the AoO). Listening Cone (door check), dog pepper, Climber's/Disguise/Forgery Kits, scroll/map cases and lots of pen/paper (often your best weapon like today's cell phone), smokesticks (makes Concealment->automatic Hide), silk rope (not hemp), darkberries (Mag. of Faerun), another set of MW tools (you never know), false holds in boots or weapon (CompScoundrel), antitox (low Fort save sucks and poisoned traps abound), sunrods, oh, and a spyglass (dbl's Spot check...more time for you to Hide/recon) -extras: get some drow sleep poison (even if you poison self, you're not dead, but a sleeping enemy affords you option of interrogate or execute later), anything to up Dex (Gloves, etc. most of the good stuff/skills are Dex anyway), something for Darkvision if not 1 potion thereof, anything to up movement if you're flanking/tumbling alot, etc. a good horse never hurt anyone either. maybe a puppy or Hello Kitty toaster
Tonus 10-13-07, 01:49 PM	I recently started with an Unseen Seer (C.M.) and went wild on my equipment list with Masterwork Tools. MW Shoes: 150gp for a +2 on Move Silent, Balance and Tumble. They're my little ninja slippers. Really cool mw glasses: +2 on Spot and Search for the low price of 100gp. . This is serious rules abuse. My personal opinion is that the generic "masterwork tools" are meant for crafting skills, but even if you use a more liberal interpretation to cover any skill use, in order for it to be a "tool" it must be something you have to actively use. Not a wear and forget item, and certainly not more than one skill bonus at a time or you have certainly broken the item compared to similar magic items. So, for example, a "masterwork magnifying glass" might be allowable for a +2 bonus to search, but you've gotta have it in your hand which might be inconvenient if a monster pops out at you... The items you present are magic items, and need to be priced significantly higher. Compare your MW shoes to Boots of Elvenkind: +5 Move Silently at a cost of 2500 gp. Magic item cost scales to the square of the numeric power, so "Minor Boots of Elvenkind" adding +2 Move Silently would cost 400 gp. (2500 times two-squared divided by five-squared.) Adding multiple abilities to the same slotted item costs +50%, so it would cost +600 gp each to add bonusses for balance and tumble as well. So your shoes should properly cost 1600 gp, not 150, if your DM even allows them in the game.
T_Stalker 10-13-07, 03:56 PM	My personal opinion is that the generic "masterwork tools" are meant for crafting skills, but even if you use a more liberal interpretation to cover any skill use, in order for it to be a "tool" it must be something you have to actively use. Artisan’s Tools These special tools include the items needed to pursue any craft. Without them, you have to use improvised tools (-2 penalty on Craft checks), if you can do the job at all. "A tool" is indeed very generic. I believe it is meant to be that way. I actively wear the shoes and look through the glasses. But you can't deny that if you yourself would be wearing very good shoes, you would be more stable and appropriate soles automatically make them quieter. It's logical, really. On the down side: I can't use my boot slot on a better item. Despite that they're two different bonuses, it's something I can't use. Same with the face slot. They support indeed multiple skills. By the magic item creation guidelines a 50% increase is indeed appropriate. They are however not magical. Thus those rules don't apply.
redarius 10-13-07, 04:14 PM	"A tool" is indeed very generic. I believe it is meant to be that way. I actively wear the shoes and look through the glasses. But you can't deny that if you yourself would be wearing very good shoes, you would be more stable and appropriate soles automatically make them quieter. It's logical, really. By the magic item creation guidelines a 50% increase is indeed appropriate. They are however not magical. Thus those rules don't apply. LOL. Hey man if your DM lets you get away with nonsense like that, by all means continue with it. But I wouldn't allow it, and neither would most folks that run games I would participate in, "logic" aside.
T_Stalker 10-14-07, 04:31 AM	I really don't see the problem. It's cheap, yes. But it's by the rules. Even considering that the items give bonusses to multiple skills. Let's recalculate the price. Multiple Similar Abilities For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. Multiple Different Abilities Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. The bonusses seem very similar to me. Boots=move silent(+2)+tumble(+2)*0.75+balance(+2)*0 .50 = 50+37.5+25=112,5 gp Glasses = 50 + 37.5 = 87.5 gp Now, just to have a look at the difference,let's look at the other figures: Boots: move silent (50) + tumble (75) + balance (75 or 112.5*) = 200 or 237 gp Glasses: spot (50) + search (75) = 125 gp That's a maximum difference of 87.5 gp from the price I listed. Hardly worth argueing over. (Unles you're a commoner.) There really is no further reason to involve the magic item rules, since it's perfectly legal to use the masterwork tool section. An already existing example of this: Masterwork Thieves Tools. A +2 bonus to Open Lock and Disable Device. At a 100 gp (50 + 50), this is just what I was talking about.
Cifer 10-14-07, 09:07 AM	This is serious rules abuse. Actually, it isn't. The rules provide several examples for Masterwork Tools (like the Climbing Kit, the Disguise Kit, the Masterwork Thieves' Tools and the Masterwork Artisan's Tools) and a generic one.
redarius 10-14-07, 12:17 PM	Each of the kits or sets of tools in question are situational bonuses and imply a great deal of variety in the tools. Masterwork thieves tools? Assume a small toolkit sized portfolio of various shapes and lengths of tools for the job. Climbing kit? A bulky set of ropes to make swiss seats, pitons, carabiners, attachments for your feet, etc. Disguise kit? It's listed with a number of uses, same for healer kit. There's an implication of use action, not a consistent application of the bonus. Where this entire thing mocks the rules is the "it's just good shoes lol" attitude of the guy advocating it. I know better than to engage in this sort of thing on message boards, but the gear he's implying is what I would say is necessary to get the basic roll. A +2 on spot checks from glasses? No way. If your vision is impaired, you wear glasses to get rid of the penalty. If you need glasses to get down to the real details on some old texts or damaged papyrus scrolls, maybe the right glasses for fine detail could give you a +2 circumstance bonus as part of some kind of "decipher script" check. A +2 on balance, move silent, and tumble? Perhaps the OP should pay attention to the shoes that acrobats wear. They're nothing like shoes -- or the boots or sandals -- one can safely assume folks are wearing in a fantasy setting. Air Jordans aside, "good shoes" are implied in the fact that you can make these checks without penalties anyhow. So yes, if you DM lets you get away with this stuff it's pretty awesome. I'd probably try to pull it too. But a smug sort of "whatever lol this is the rules" approach is weak and unsupportable. A tool is specific and grants a bonus because it has application for the task, not a generic "always on" baseline addition to a task. That's the province of magic.
pinkbunny 10-14-07, 01:09 PM	While some of those tools are a little strange, and I kindof doubt that it was intended to give multiple bonuses in one slot, the A&E guide has a couple items that do the same thing, Silent Shoes and Thieve's Helmet off the top of my head.
T_Stalker 10-14-07, 01:47 PM	redarius: I know I am prone to use words "dude" and "man" when I write. But that "lol" thing you do there is totally unnecesarry. I'm not a native english speaker and actually put forth some effort in my spelling and grammar, so don't acuse me of noobish crap like that. What's really bothering you? It's not the fact that I put more then 2 bonusses on them like the thieves tools, because you're complaining about the glasses too. Is it the fact that they're "always on/active"? Well whoopty frikkin doo, like with any other tool you only get any benefit from it when you actually are in a situation that requires those skills. (Weird wording, I know, sorry.) Is it overpowered? I don't see how a skill bonus makes you waltz all over your opponents. I think there already is an official item for descipher script checks, it's nothing you look through. More some kind of decoding ring or something. (Origin of the glasses simply was: My DM has a really cool pic of some guy with purple glasses and I wanted a bonus on Spot and Search. What else could I possibly take?) pinkbunny: Silent shoes and thieves' helmet, grant a +1 to move silent and listen respectively, both cost 10 gp. Based on that price formulae, I paid way too much.
Case 10-16-07, 10:21 AM	I'm really surprised that the skill kit thing is an issue at all here... I seem to remember reading many threads where people shared their creative skill kits (50 gp, 1lb, +2 skill each). As far as GMs allowing it... my character has several (and yes, they include pieces of clothing), and I've literally never even mentioned it to my GM. It's pretty clear in the equipment section. If the protest is because someone has combined the bonuses/cost into a single item I guess I could see the argument, but it seems like a minor detail. What gives?
TheSeasonOfFire 10-16-07, 07:16 PM	Check out Goggles of Minute Seeing and a Lens of Detection...together they are like 4-5 thousand gold, but WELL worth the +10 Search bonus they would provide...think of all the hidden items/secret doors/levers you will have an easier time finding down the road, not to mention traps.
Darryl_Licke 10-17-07, 02:20 PM	Check out Goggles of Minute Seeing and a Lens of Detection...together they are like 4-5 thousand gold, but WELL worth the +10 Search bonus they would provide...think of all the hidden items/secret doors/levers you will have an easier time finding down the road, not to mention traps. What books are these in?
Cifer 10-17-07, 04:44 PM	What books are these in? DMG.