Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dnarris 06-21-07, 11:16 AM	I was looking for the best lance type weapon I could use for my Centaur and I'm really unhappy with the Lance in the PHB. It's 1d8 x 3. Is there a better weapon out there that provides double damage on a charge that has a better base damage and/or perhaps a better critical range than just 20?
jaelis 06-21-07, 11:19 AM	Did you check here (http://www.lancearmstrong.com/)? That's the best lance I know of :)
BelainDefenderofJerusalem 06-21-07, 11:21 AM	well centaurs are LARGE, so a lance sized for one would do 1d10 (i think).
EternalZzyx 06-21-07, 11:26 AM	You know, 1d8 x3 on a crit isn't all that bad...and not when you can use it two handed for that +1/2 STR plus you are a centaur so you can use a large lance which brings it up to 2d6, combine that with spirited charge (if you count as mounted, I cant remember) The lance is quite a nice weapon...
Dnarris 06-21-07, 11:27 AM	Yes, a centaur can wield a lance one size larger then them so they would deal 2d6 with a lance. However, I'm looking to take advantage of their size and looking for a better base damage. 1d10 would be 2d8 1d12 would be 3d6..... So I'm trying to find a lance that might have a based damage of 1d10 at medium size or 1d12 at medium size.
RobbyPants 06-21-07, 11:29 AM	Yeah, 6d6 + 3x Str mod is pretty nice damage. Not to mention if you bring Power Attack into the mix!
Magrus 06-21-07, 11:41 AM	To answer your question? No. You could switch to a different type of polearm and forgo the charging bonus on your lance. Lances aren't very good weapons, not unless used from the back of a charging horse, which is where they outshine most other weapons. If you want higher damage, you'll need to switch weapons and ditch the charge bonus.
Dnarris 06-21-07, 11:44 AM	To answer your question? No. You could switch to a different type of polearm and forgo the charging bonus on your lance. Lances aren't very good weapons, not unless used from the back of a charging horse, which is where they outshine most other weapons. If you want higher damage, you'll need to switch weapons and ditch the charge bonus. The charging bonus is part of the plan....so I won't opt for a different weapon.....and a Centaur is a charging horse.
Majick 06-21-07, 01:32 PM	Is it the Cavalier Prestige Class that lets you eventually get X5 on a charge? something insane like X7 or X8 on a critical? look for that man
Dnarris 06-21-07, 03:02 PM	Is it the Cavalier Prestige Class that lets you eventually get X5 on a charge? something insane like X7 or X8 on a critical? look for that man Actually investing some levels in cavalier might be a good idea.
Pangeon 06-21-07, 03:30 PM	Are you kidding me? Lance not a great weapon? :eek: It has reach and you can use it one handed. When you throw in Spirited charge and Power attack, the base damage really won't matter, anyways.
zelf_gale 06-21-07, 06:03 PM	The lance rocks hardcore when mounted after feats and prestige classes. There is absolutely no need to tack on additional damage by increasing the base dice of the weapon. Even at 2nd level a charging mounted 18 Strength human fighter at with spirited charge and power attack... 3d8 (from 1d8 base weapon damage multiplied by 3 for spirited charge) + 18 (from +4 Strength multiplied by 1.5 for two handed weapon and by 3 for spirited charge) + 12 (from 2 point power attack multiplied by 2 for two handed weapon and by 3 for spirited charge) = 43 after average damage rolls and rounding down. At 2nd Level, 43 average damage is huge. And then at level 3 he starts to Cleave after those hits. I'm not just throwing around numbers on paper. I've played with and been the DM of several different PCs who've employed this tactic with great success. But if you did want to throw around numbers, I haven't seen a paladin yet with all the previous feats, riding her special mount with both under the effects of enlarge person via the share spells ability for even more damage and reach, after entering the cavalier prestige class and picking up greater cleave charging into a dozen mooks yet. But when you do make sure to yell the battlecry "Equine Fireball!"
Twylyght 06-21-07, 06:19 PM	oh and leap attack and Shock trooper are an awesome combo for charging if you have the feats to qualify. Shock trooper grants heedless charge, tradding out AC instead of your attack bonus when charging. So instead of a net penalty to hit, you get to keep the +2 bonus to hit when charging and power attacking. After all all this focus ona charge is pointless if you miss :) Lance, standing still, power attack. 2d6 + 1.5x STR + 2x power attack penalty Large lance, charging, power attack. 4d6 + 3x str + 4x power attack penalty. Toss on leap attack and you tripple your power attack damage instead of doubling it for a two-handed weapon. (3 for 1 trade) charging with a large lance, leap attack,(x2 total) 4d6 + 3x STR + 6x power attack penalty Then its a x3 critical so if you crit(x4 total)..... 8d6 + 6x str + 12x power attack penalty. now if you dare to add in those cavalier abilities.. well I think whatever your fighting is more or less screwed. ***Edit*** oh forgot spirited charge! (x5 total) 10d6 + 7.5x str + 15x power attack penalty. Certainly you probally end up with an AC of 5 or so, but with the damage youll deal its a more than fair trade. Also if you have the back up of magical items or a caster you can off set this. Anything that grants DR or a miss chance makes an awesome combo with a charger.
Dnarris 06-21-07, 06:51 PM	I basically went ahead and put together a centaur character and gave him 4 crusader/10 cavalier. I know I saw a heavy lance around somewhere that does either 1d10 or 1d12 damage instead of the normal 1d8. Assuming it's 1d10 with the centaur's size and some strongarm bracers from MIC the base damage goes up to 4d8. The character's strength bonus is 30...so he does a base damage of 4d8+10. When using his unstoppable charge and battle jump his damage is 4d8+10 x 6. His highest BAB is +32 without any magical enchancement bonuses. So I'm confident he can take away 10 points for a power attack and hit most things. So his damage would look like 4d8+40 x 6 when using power attack and leap attack with unstoppable charge and battle jump. Not bad at all.
Slimgauge 06-21-07, 11:06 PM	Now could you add "Driving Attack" onto that charge to knock the target prone as well, or does the charge you made not qualify as "a full-round action to make a single melee attack" ?
Twylyght 06-22-07, 01:17 AM	Now could you add "Driving Attack" onto that charge to knock the target prone as well, or does the charge you made not qualify as "a full-round action to make a single melee attack" ? The quick answer would be no, since both a charge and a driving attack require a full round action they are not compatible. Though you could, in theory, RAW, hold a lance in each hand while mounted and use Two Weapon Pounce from the PHB2.....and with Ride-by Attack continue to move out of retaliation range :) So, ride by attack, 2 lance attacks, spirited charge, leap attack, would be 2 hits of (x3 base) 6d6 + 3x STR + 6x power attack pealty, for a non critical total of 12d6 + 6x STR+ 12x power attack penalty. a single critical would score you (x5 base) 10d6 + 5x STR + 10x power attack penalty, and heavens forbid a double critical, 20d6 + 10x STR + 20x power attack penalty combined between 2 hits. Now just cause im feeling like a sick little monkey, A 10th level cavalier with that large lance can do 10d6 + 7.5 STR + 15x power attack penalty with a leap attack on a NON-CRITICAL overwhelming charge, and moving a critical to a total of a (X7!!!! base) 14d6 + 10.5 STR + 21x power attack penalty with a SINGLE STRIKE the two lance cavalier likewise hits twice for 10d6 + 5x STR + 10x power attack penalty, for a possible NON-CRITICAL total of 20d6 + 10x STR + 20x power attack penalty... A single critical as such(7x) 14d6+ 7x STR + 14x power attack penalty. And that unthinkable double crit climbs to the staggering 28d6+ 14x STR + 28x power attack penalty..... "He's dead jim"
Rulebook 06-22-07, 07:06 AM	and lets not forget, that due to being a long creature (even mounted this works) not having any sort of facing rules, and that you dont attack from the center of your creature you can use this reach weapon to attack foes next to you by attacking from a square away
jaelis 06-22-07, 08:31 AM	and lets not forget, that due to being a long creature (even mounted this works) not having any sort of facing rules, and that you dont attack from the center of your creature you can use this reach weapon to attack foes next to you by attacking from a square away Actually, if you're a centaur with a large lance, you just use the regular large-creature reach rules, which say you can't attack adjacent foes. Your argument is valid for a person riding a horse, but it's worth noting that lots of people disagree. Cf: Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less.
Rulebook 06-22-07, 12:07 PM	oh snap you got me! i TOTALLY didnt think about the whole "Large-tall" Vs "large-long" way of determining reach! except i did remember it... centaurs have no natural reach. so double thier natural reach is a normal reach weapon. you attack creatures to the front of you by starting your attack in the back square (basically striking over your shoulder if you want to be a really horrible pain about the visuals... but theres no rules for it anyway, so it works)
mvincent 06-22-07, 03:41 PM	Are you kidding me? Lance not a great weapon? :eek: It has reach and you can use it one handed.Note: A centaur wouldn't be able to use it one handed.
RobbyPants 06-22-07, 04:12 PM	Note: A centaur wouldn't be able to use it one handed. That's actually a good thing. Adding half-again an already big Str modifier is nice. Adding tripple that from Spirited Charge is made of win!
NeueRegel 06-23-07, 12:35 AM	So many numbers, so little time... Base damage is nothing. Literally nothing. You could charge with a lance and do 95 points of damage, or you could charge with a swiss army knife and do 90. Get it?
Rulebook 06-23-07, 07:31 AM	well, charging with a lance is a bit different from the swiss army knife (if only from the special rules of using a lance while charging)
Spellfire_junkie 06-23-07, 07:32 AM	This may sound stupid to some, but to me, the centaur is both the charging horse and the warrior on the beast's back. I allow the more advantageous result of the two for the centaur, becuse I am under the assumption that if it is a balance issue that only allows the humanoid to wield the lance one-handed while mounted, then perhaps the centaur having four legs negates the issues that the "normal races" seem to struggle with. I say, let the centaur utilize the lance one-handed.
Dnarris 06-23-07, 10:57 AM	I agree with Spellfire. A Centaur can use a lance one-handed as a Centaur is not missing anything that a mounted warrior would have. There's no reasonable argument as to why a Centaur wouldn't be able to wield a lance the same as a normal mounted warrior.
kjenks 06-23-07, 11:24 AM	Is there a better weapon out there that provides double damage on a charge that has a better base damage and/or perhaps a better critical range than just 20? Find yourself a friendly druid. He can cast the Wood Shape spell to make you a wooden lance. Then as combat begins, he can cast Spikes on the lance. You now have a lance with a 19-20/x3 crit range, +2 on attack rolls and +1/caster level (max +10) on damage rolls.
mvincent 06-23-07, 11:43 AM	I say, let the centaur utilize the lance one-handed.I was kinda surprised that the writer's didn't use wording that allowed it.
NeueRegel 06-23-07, 12:14 PM	The one and only thing that has to be considered in this scenario, is that what makes a lance usable "one handed", that being the developement of the invention of "couching" said lance. This is the practice of having a "holster" type attachment to the saddle, to bear the brunt of the shock of impact on a horse of size and weight, not a little human that would otherwise get immediately stopped in midair as the horse continued forward. It's simple laws of physics, momentum, and force met with equal force. So, if our centaur wants to use a lance in "the knightly fashion", it's a simple matter of saying that said centaur is wearing a "saddle-like" device on which to couch the back side of the lance. Not even a true saddle, so to speak, but a strapped on sort of contraption that serves the function to set the lance with; Sort of comparable to setting a longspear to receive a charge, but the opposite, using the centaur's own large-sized body mass as a rider and horse in tandem would. Neue.
Dnarris 06-23-07, 12:52 PM	The one and only thing that has to be considered in this scenario, is that what makes a lance usable "one handed", that being the developement of the invention of "couching" said lance. This is the practice of having a "holster" type attachment to the saddle, to bear the brunt of the shock of impact on a horse of size and weight, not a little human that would otherwise get immediately stopped in midair as the horse continued forward. It's simple laws of physics, momentum, and force met with equal force. So, if our centaur wants to use a lance in "the knightly fashion", it's a simple matter of saying that said centaur is wearing a "saddle-like" device on which to couch the back side of the lance. Not even a true saddle, so to speak, but a strapped on sort of contraption that serves the function to set the lance with; Sort of comparable to setting a longspear to receive a charge, but the opposite, using the centaur's own large-sized body mass as a rider and horse in tandem would. Neue. Of course that's a little too technical for a game, I think. It's easier to operate under the assumption that you are going to keep things as simple as possible when it come to things like this. If it's reasonable to assume that a centaur can use a lance as a mounted rider....than it can. Easy enough. I think most people are capable of discerning the difference between a reasonable and unreasonable assumption.
mvincent 06-23-07, 01:03 PM	If it's reasonable to assume that a centaur can use a lance as a mounted rider....than it can. Easy enough.Sure, that seems entirely reasonable if using a medium sized lance, however centaurs can wield large lances. I don't think it would still make sense with such weapons.
Grave_Accomplice 06-23-07, 01:15 PM	Last I heard, you don't get the 2 hnd bonuses for using a lance during a charge, as you're using it one handed. Has this changed in errata somewhere?
Dnarris 06-23-07, 01:54 PM	Sure, that seems entirely reasonable if using a medium sized lance, however centaurs can wield large lances. I don't think it would still make sense with such weapons. Well, my Centaur's starting strength was 26 and right now it's 30 and soon I'm going to get my hands on a +5 tome. I think a Centaur with a strength that high can easily wield a large lance one handed. The rest of the size increases come at no penalty. As for lances getting the benefits of strength added even wielded one-handed....I can't recall what book I read it in. It'd take time to find it again.
mvincent 06-23-07, 02:36 PM	Last I heard, you don't get the 2 hnd bonuses for using a lance during a charge, as you're using it one handed.You have the option to use a lance one handed on a charge. If you do, you do not get the 2-handed bonuses. However, you can always use a lance two-handed on a charge if desired.
mvincent 06-23-07, 02:40 PM	Well, my Centaur's starting strength was 26 and right now it's 30 and soon I'm going to get my hands on a +5 tome. I think a Centaur with a strength that high can easily wield a large lance one handed.Strength is unrelated to handiness in D&D. As for lances getting the benefits of strength added even wielded one-handed....I can't recall what book I read it in.No book says that a lance gets two-handed bonuses if wielded one-handed, and the 3.5 FAQ stipulates that it does not.
Dnarris 06-23-07, 04:34 PM	Strength is unrelated to handiness in D&D. No book says that a lance gets two-handed bonuses if wielded one-handed, and the 3.5 FAQ stipulates that it does not. I'm glad you're not my DM. The point of the matter is as long as you can legally wield the weapon and a lance says you can wield it one handed when mounted you can wield it one handed. And yes, I concede the point you won't receive 1.5 strength. It seems the FAQ is very current and it states that you don't get the extra strength bonus. If there were an ability or feat that allowed this I imagine the FAQ would mention it.
AAB 06-23-07, 05:08 PM	I'm glad you're not my DM. The point of the matter is as long as you can legally wield the weapon and a lance says you can wield it one handed when mounted you can wield it one handed. And I'm sure I've read it somewhere that you still get the bonuses and I'll find it again for my DM for my game. As I more than 100% positive you have not scoured your books to make sure that there was no text explaining that just for the purposes of this thread. you don't get 2-handed strength bonus when using it one-handed. that's just painfully obvious.
Dnarris 06-23-07, 07:19 PM	you don't get 2-handed strength bonus when using it one-handed. that's just painfully obvious. Yeah....painfully obvious...much like your poor tact.
AAB 06-23-07, 07:33 PM	One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls. Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands. from these entries any reasonable person would be able to infer that it is not the relative size of the weapon that gives the strength bonus, it is the manner in which it is wielded. larger weapons already have a bonus to damage in the form of higher damage dice; implying that using a lance one-handed while riding is not just incorrect, in my eyes, it is a flagrant attempt at bending the rules to give your character an unfair edge in combat. you have been overly rude to both mvincent and myself, and editing your post that i quoted implies that you are indeed trying to make me look like the bad guy in this situation. multiple people have tried to help you: some have offered suggestions, some have given more rules-related contributions. you post in the manner of an angry child who is not getting his way and is thus lashing out. please stop.
Dnarris 06-23-07, 08:32 PM	from these entries any reasonable person would be able to infer that it is not the relative size of the weapon that gives the strength bonus, it is the manner in which it is wielded. larger weapons already have a bonus to damage in the form of higher damage dice; implying that using a lance one-handed while riding is not just incorrect, in my eyes, it is a flagrant attempt at bending the rules to give your character an unfair edge in combat. you have been overly rude to both mvincent and myself, and editing your post that i quoted implies that you are indeed trying to make me look like the bad guy in this situation. multiple people have tried to help you: some have offered suggestions, some have given more rules-related contributions. you post in the manner of an angry child who is not getting his way and is thus lashing out. please stop. I'm afraid that your ego has been hurt or something to that effect. As you see the only edit to my previous post was to concede and admit I was wrong about the strength bonus. However, my short response was definitely a response to you and your rude response to how I couldn't get something "painfully obvious". And you have offered no suggestion other than a rude rebuke. And I find the irony of your post very funny.
mvincent 06-23-07, 10:23 PM	I'm glad you're not my DM.Why?
Dnarris 06-23-07, 10:42 PM	Why? Because it appears to me my Centaur charger build wouldn't work in your game. That's all. :)