A brief but complicated question [Archive] - Wizards Community

A brief but complicated question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Blairconz
03-12-05, 08:27 PM Here we go

Take a level 6 fighter with TWF and ITWF, four attacks per round? Basic.
Now let's give him EWP (Bastard sword) and EWP (Net) and a suit of spiked armour.
Now where it gets tricky.
Primary hand: Bastard sword
Off hand: Net
Can he; throw his Net at a -4 penalty then take a 5ft step, take a two handed grip with his bastard sword, make two bastard sword attacks at -4 each to attack, str*1.5 to damage, then an armour spikes attack -2 to attack and str*.5?

Have I got this completely wrong? Any help will be appreciated greatly
DM Zoc
03-12-05, 08:39 PM It looks mostly right, except that I was under the impression that your off-hand and on-hand attack take place simultaneously (you wouldn't get one of the sword attacks because you were out of range when you made the off-hand attack). If I'm wrong about that, then at the very least you can't apply two-handed strength to the first sword attack (because your other hand was occupied during the time when you were making your first set of attacks).

If I'm wrong, and the different hand attacks of the same iteration are allowed to be stagnated with free actions in between, then that would imply that you could make both on-hand and off-hand attacks with the same weapon (it being a free action to switch the hand your weapon is in).
Blairconz
03-12-05, 09:26 PM Thanks for the help! :) :)

It says in the PHB that you take your attacks in Bab order so by that logic you can use the net first then decide on the rest. But I'm not sure so don't quote me.

Anyway thanks again. :)
WunderGoat
03-12-05, 11:54 PM You get to decide what attack goes where and how in BAB order, but you need to decide on things like TWF, power attack, and expertise in the begining. You can't expertise on your last attack and not on the previous ones. In your example, you can throw the net and attack with the bastard sword twice, but only one handed, and then attack with the armor spikes. Once you use that net, you are considered to be using that hand for a weapon for the rest of the round (even though nothing is in it), and thus you cannot then switch the bastard sword to two-handed use until next turn.

I don't beleive you can take 5-ft steps during your attack, so the net and 5-ft is out, unless it changed in 3.5.

If you want to attack with a net and then nail your opponent with a two-handed weapon, I suggest looking at the hurling charge feat in the miniatures handbook. There are a lot of prereqs for it, but it lets you throw a weapon during the charge, draw a new weapon, and attack with that weapon. Thus, you could charge, throw the net, draw the BS, and attack with the BS.
PhaedrusXY
03-13-05, 02:35 AM I don't beleive you can take 5-ft steps during your attack, so the net and 5-ft is out, unless it changed in 3.5.I agree with most everything else you said, but the above is incorrect. From the Combat I section of the SRD: You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. I'm pretty sure it was like that for 3.0, also. You've always been able to make a 5 foot step in the middle of a full attack.

Edit: Yep, it was like this in 3.0, also. Page 124 3.0 PHB: You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.Also, I think it is clear that you can both attack with the bastard sword gripped two-handed and make off-hand attacks with Armor Spikes. It's debateable whether you'd also get your full 1.5X Str mod to the sword damage, but I'd say yes.

So I'd say you could: 1) Throw the net, take a 5 foot step, and attack with the bastard sword one-handed. You'd take a -4 penalty to all of those because the net is a medium weapon, and you threw it with your off-hand. If you had Improved TWF, you could also attack with the armor spikes, but this would be your second off-hand attack, so you'd use your Base Attack minus 5 (with a -4 from TWF penalties).

OR

2) Make a full attack with the bastard sword gripped two-handed, and all your off-hand attacks with the armor spikes. You'd take a -2 penalty to attacks, and it's debateable whether you'd get the full 1.5xStr mod to damage with the sword.

If you already made an attack with your actual off-hand, I don't think you can choose to then change to a two-handed grip on your sword, but I can't remember any actual rules evidence to back this up. So indeed, what you describe might be possible, but you'd take a -4 penalty to all your attacks, and any off-hand attacks would be done using Iterative base attack progression (assuming the appropriate two weapon fighting feats), even if they were not made with the same weapons.
Johannixx
03-13-05, 03:21 AM The old "two-handed sword + armor spikes TWF" question has been beaten to death. Personally, I consider it a loophole in the rules, sort of like the old 'bag of rats + whirlwind + great cleave' trick. It's legal per the letter of the rules, but not per the spirit.

Now, if you wanted to throw the net (-4 penalty for TWFing with a non-light offhand weapon), 5' step in, then start TWFing with the bastard sword and armor spikes at -2 penalties (the spikes are light weapons, so the penalties drop), that'd be fine. Trying to get x1.5 Str bonus by two-handing the sword just seems cheesy to me. If it were my campaign, I'd make you suit up and show me how it works IRL ;) If you could two-hand a sword and effectively hit me with pieces of your armor that would nominally be spiked, then I'd might let you pull it off in-game. But I doubt it, it's too munchkinny.
gbnogkfs
03-13-05, 11:52 AM As long as I can read the rules, you must choose whether you want to make twf or thf, and must abide to that for the round.

If you choose to use bs+net/spikes in the beginning, you cannot then choose to attack with the sword with both hands.

otherwise, if your BAB is +16 or more, you can make four attacks: one with the net, two with the BS with two hands, one with spikes (at whch point, you probably would use BS for the fourth attack as well).

or again, as you have two primary and two off-hand attacks, I'll concede to use a primary hand attack with a net at -4 (BS in the off-hand), an off-hand attack with the spikes at -2, and a two-handed attack with the BS at -0 (besides the normal -5 for being the "second attack").
bjorntfh
03-13-05, 12:19 PM Personally I'd say yes because you are allowed to use TWF and THF (as per the example of armor spikes and a THW.) Additionally there's no reason you can't use the sword two handed because switching the grip on a weapon is a free action that you can do during your round. So your round should look like this: Declare you are using TWF, you take a -4 to all attacks. Throw the net at -4 as an off hand attack. Switch your bastard sword to two handed use (a free action.) Five foot step (a free action.) Make your first primary hand attack with the bastard sword. Make your second off hand attack with armor spikes. Make your second primary hand attack with the bastard sword.

It's all legal and fair, although you are taking a whopping penalty to hit. Can I advise taking Oversized Two Weapon Fighting from CA? It lets you treat a 1 handed weapon as light for TWF penalties (thus reducing your penalties for that combo to -2.)
Thorak
03-13-05, 01:01 PM The old "two-handed sword + armor spikes TWF" question has been beaten to death. Personally, I consider it a loophole in the rules, sort of like the old 'bag of rats + whirlwind + great cleave' trick. It's legal per the letter of the rules, but not per the spirit.
Except that the FAQ explicitly says it's both legal, and per the spirit of the rules. You can disagree, but armor spikes and two-handed weapons are not only legal, but have been confirmed as official.
Johannixx
03-13-05, 01:16 PM Except that the FAQ explicitly says it's both legal, and per the spirit of the rules. You can disagree, but armor spikes and two-handed weapons are not only legal, but have been confirmed as official.

I file it under the "Spiked Chain" category: Official, yes, but still silly.
Thorak
03-13-05, 02:33 PM I file it under the "Spiked Chain" category: Official, yes, but still silly.
I dunno. The spiked chain, as presented in every picture except the PHB's, isn't too bad. And the greatsword and armor spikes is something I could easily see a conan-like warrior pulling off; big upward slash, followed by twisting with the torque of that blow and ramming your spiked pauldron (that's the big shoulder armor plate) into the opponent's chest.

Probably not all that practical for the real world, no, but certainly fits quite reasonably in a fantasy world. If a mage can create explosions with a tiny bit of bat guano and some weird words and gestures, why are these things hard to accept?
Johannixx
03-13-05, 02:42 PM I dunno. The spiked chain, as presented in every picture except the PHB's, isn't too bad. And the greatsword and armor spikes is something I could easily see a conan-like warrior pulling off; big upward slash, followed by twisting with the torque of that blow and ramming your spiked pauldron (that's the big shoulder armor plate) into the opponent's chest.

Probably not all that practical for the real world, no, but certainly fits quite reasonably in a fantasy world. If a mage can create explosions with a tiny bit of bat guano and some weird words and gestures, why are these things hard to accept?

Mages are expected to use magic. Warriors aren't.

Think of it this way: For a warrior with a two-handed sword and armor spikes to TWF with them in the same round, he'd have to cut with the sword, move in to what is essentially grappling distance to use the spikes, back off, use the sword again, close with his opponent again to use the spikes, back off, use the sword, ad nauseum. It's basically a failure of the D&D system to accomodate varying weapon reaches. Armor spikes require person-to-person contact, and at that kind of distance (or lack thereof), a two-handed sword is useless except for pommel strikes or as an aid to certain grappling moves like arm bars. If you're standing at sufficient distance to make effective use of the sword, you're way too far out to use your armor spikes. IMHO, armor spikes should only be useable in very close-quarters fighting, i.e. with fists/daggers or grappling, not with a 5-1/2' sword.
bjorntfh
03-13-05, 03:22 PM Or the guy could thrust past the opponent with the blade, trying to drag the edge along an unprotected area, slam with the spiked armor, kick the guy away with a spiked greave and then simultaneously draw the blade across the opponent as the kick pushes them away from each other.

It's possible, but it would be hard. I think that's pretty well shown by a 20% reduction in accuracy (-4 to all attacks.)
Johannixx
03-13-05, 05:02 PM Or the guy could thrust past the opponent with the blade, trying to drag the edge along an unprotected area, slam with the spiked armor, kick the guy away with a spiked greave and then simultaneously draw the blade across the opponent as the kick pushes them away from each other.

It's possible, but it would be hard. I think that's pretty well shown by a 20% reduction in accuracy (-4 to all attacks.)

Armor spikes are light weapons, so they only impose a -2 penalty. And do you really think a draw-cut with a blade is going to inflict the full 2d6 damage?
bjorntfh
03-13-05, 05:21 PM Yes. If he's using a bastard sword it does 1d10, not 2d6, and an example of a bastard sword (in DnD terms) is the katana. You use it mostly in draw cuts. Pushing three feet of sharpened steel across someone's flesh is going to damage them.

If you wanted you could snap the blade across the target after doing a thrust. Not as effective against armor, but sickeningly effecting against soft targets.
gbnogkfs
03-15-05, 03:54 PM Except that the FAQ explicitly says it's both legal, and per the spirit of the rules. You can disagree, but armor spikes and two-handed weapons are not only legal, but have been confirmed as official.

except the FAQ is inventing stuff here, as the rules speak about "primary hand" and "off-hand" when dealing about two-weapon fighting.

If I have TWF, ITWF, STWF, can I make 7 Greatsword attacks?
bjorntfh
03-16-05, 10:12 AM Of course. Just use Monkey Grip.
gbnogkfs
03-16-05, 10:20 AM Of course. Just use Monkey Grip.

not at all!
Blairconz
03-18-05, 02:38 AM What a great turnout, thanks everyone.

I just thought it might be e good way to get more out of a char. I'm currently DMing and I prefer to use my own variations on the core stuff because my party has access to the books. (For a long time we didn't.)

Anyway, appreciated greatly :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blairconz 03-12-05, 08:27 PM	Here we go Take a level 6 fighter with TWF and ITWF, four attacks per round? Basic. Now let's give him EWP (Bastard sword) and EWP (Net) and a suit of spiked armour. Now where it gets tricky. Primary hand: Bastard sword Off hand: Net Can he; throw his Net at a -4 penalty then take a 5ft step, take a two handed grip with his bastard sword, make two bastard sword attacks at -4 each to attack, str1.5 to damage, then an armour spikes attack -2 to attack and str.5? Have I got this completely wrong? Any help will be appreciated greatly
DM Zoc 03-12-05, 08:39 PM	It looks mostly right, except that I was under the impression that your off-hand and on-hand attack take place simultaneously (you wouldn't get one of the sword attacks because you were out of range when you made the off-hand attack). If I'm wrong about that, then at the very least you can't apply two-handed strength to the first sword attack (because your other hand was occupied during the time when you were making your first set of attacks). If I'm wrong, and the different hand attacks of the same iteration are allowed to be stagnated with free actions in between, then that would imply that you could make both on-hand and off-hand attacks with the same weapon (it being a free action to switch the hand your weapon is in).
Blairconz 03-12-05, 09:26 PM	Thanks for the help! :) :) It says in the PHB that you take your attacks in Bab order so by that logic you can use the net first then decide on the rest. But I'm not sure so don't quote me. Anyway thanks again. :)
WunderGoat 03-12-05, 11:54 PM	You get to decide what attack goes where and how in BAB order, but you need to decide on things like TWF, power attack, and expertise in the begining. You can't expertise on your last attack and not on the previous ones. In your example, you can throw the net and attack with the bastard sword twice, but only one handed, and then attack with the armor spikes. Once you use that net, you are considered to be using that hand for a weapon for the rest of the round (even though nothing is in it), and thus you cannot then switch the bastard sword to two-handed use until next turn. I don't beleive you can take 5-ft steps during your attack, so the net and 5-ft is out, unless it changed in 3.5. If you want to attack with a net and then nail your opponent with a two-handed weapon, I suggest looking at the hurling charge feat in the miniatures handbook. There are a lot of prereqs for it, but it lets you throw a weapon during the charge, draw a new weapon, and attack with that weapon. Thus, you could charge, throw the net, draw the BS, and attack with the BS.
PhaedrusXY 03-13-05, 02:35 AM	I don't beleive you can take 5-ft steps during your attack, so the net and 5-ft is out, unless it changed in 3.5.I agree with most everything else you said, but the above is incorrect. From the Combat I section of the SRD: You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. I'm pretty sure it was like that for 3.0, also. You've always been able to make a 5 foot step in the middle of a full attack. Edit: Yep, it was like this in 3.0, also. Page 124 3.0 PHB: You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.Also, I think it is clear that you can both attack with the bastard sword gripped two-handed and make off-hand attacks with Armor Spikes. It's debateable whether you'd also get your full 1.5X Str mod to the sword damage, but I'd say yes. So I'd say you could: 1) Throw the net, take a 5 foot step, and attack with the bastard sword one-handed. You'd take a -4 penalty to all of those because the net is a medium weapon, and you threw it with your off-hand. If you had Improved TWF, you could also attack with the armor spikes, but this would be your second off-hand attack, so you'd use your Base Attack minus 5 (with a -4 from TWF penalties). OR 2) Make a full attack with the bastard sword gripped two-handed, and all your off-hand attacks with the armor spikes. You'd take a -2 penalty to attacks, and it's debateable whether you'd get the full 1.5xStr mod to damage with the sword. If you already made an attack with your actual off-hand, I don't think you can choose to then change to a two-handed grip on your sword, but I can't remember any actual rules evidence to back this up. So indeed, what you describe might be possible, but you'd take a -4 penalty to all your attacks, and any off-hand attacks would be done using Iterative base attack progression (assuming the appropriate two weapon fighting feats), even if they were not made with the same weapons.
Johannixx 03-13-05, 03:21 AM	The old "two-handed sword + armor spikes TWF" question has been beaten to death. Personally, I consider it a loophole in the rules, sort of like the old 'bag of rats + whirlwind + great cleave' trick. It's legal per the letter of the rules, but not per the spirit. Now, if you wanted to throw the net (-4 penalty for TWFing with a non-light offhand weapon), 5' step in, then start TWFing with the bastard sword and armor spikes at -2 penalties (the spikes are light weapons, so the penalties drop), that'd be fine. Trying to get x1.5 Str bonus by two-handing the sword just seems cheesy to me. If it were my campaign, I'd make you suit up and show me how it works IRL ;) If you could two-hand a sword and effectively hit me with pieces of your armor that would nominally be spiked, then I'd might let you pull it off in-game. But I doubt it, it's too munchkinny.
gbnogkfs 03-13-05, 11:52 AM	As long as I can read the rules, you must choose whether you want to make twf or thf, and must abide to that for the round. If you choose to use bs+net/spikes in the beginning, you cannot then choose to attack with the sword with both hands. otherwise, if your BAB is +16 or more, you can make four attacks: one with the net, two with the BS with two hands, one with spikes (at whch point, you probably would use BS for the fourth attack as well). or again, as you have two primary and two off-hand attacks, I'll concede to use a primary hand attack with a net at -4 (BS in the off-hand), an off-hand attack with the spikes at -2, and a two-handed attack with the BS at -0 (besides the normal -5 for being the "second attack").
bjorntfh 03-13-05, 12:19 PM	Personally I'd say yes because you are allowed to use TWF and THF (as per the example of armor spikes and a THW.) Additionally there's no reason you can't use the sword two handed because switching the grip on a weapon is a free action that you can do during your round. So your round should look like this: Declare you are using TWF, you take a -4 to all attacks. Throw the net at -4 as an off hand attack. Switch your bastard sword to two handed use (a free action.) Five foot step (a free action.) Make your first primary hand attack with the bastard sword. Make your second off hand attack with armor spikes. Make your second primary hand attack with the bastard sword. It's all legal and fair, although you are taking a whopping penalty to hit. Can I advise taking Oversized Two Weapon Fighting from CA? It lets you treat a 1 handed weapon as light for TWF penalties (thus reducing your penalties for that combo to -2.)
Thorak 03-13-05, 01:01 PM	The old "two-handed sword + armor spikes TWF" question has been beaten to death. Personally, I consider it a loophole in the rules, sort of like the old 'bag of rats + whirlwind + great cleave' trick. It's legal per the letter of the rules, but not per the spirit. Except that the FAQ explicitly says it's both legal, and per the spirit of the rules. You can disagree, but armor spikes and two-handed weapons are not only legal, but have been confirmed as official.
Johannixx 03-13-05, 01:16 PM	Except that the FAQ explicitly says it's both legal, and per the spirit of the rules. You can disagree, but armor spikes and two-handed weapons are not only legal, but have been confirmed as official. I file it under the "Spiked Chain" category: Official, yes, but still silly.
Thorak 03-13-05, 02:33 PM	I file it under the "Spiked Chain" category: Official, yes, but still silly. I dunno. The spiked chain, as presented in every picture except the PHB's, isn't too bad. And the greatsword and armor spikes is something I could easily see a conan-like warrior pulling off; big upward slash, followed by twisting with the torque of that blow and ramming your spiked pauldron (that's the big shoulder armor plate) into the opponent's chest. Probably not all that practical for the real world, no, but certainly fits quite reasonably in a fantasy world. If a mage can create explosions with a tiny bit of bat guano and some weird words and gestures, why are these things hard to accept?
Johannixx 03-13-05, 02:42 PM	I dunno. The spiked chain, as presented in every picture except the PHB's, isn't too bad. And the greatsword and armor spikes is something I could easily see a conan-like warrior pulling off; big upward slash, followed by twisting with the torque of that blow and ramming your spiked pauldron (that's the big shoulder armor plate) into the opponent's chest. Probably not all that practical for the real world, no, but certainly fits quite reasonably in a fantasy world. If a mage can create explosions with a tiny bit of bat guano and some weird words and gestures, why are these things hard to accept? Mages are expected to use magic. Warriors aren't. Think of it this way: For a warrior with a two-handed sword and armor spikes to TWF with them in the same round, he'd have to cut with the sword, move in to what is essentially grappling distance to use the spikes, back off, use the sword again, close with his opponent again to use the spikes, back off, use the sword, ad nauseum. It's basically a failure of the D&D system to accomodate varying weapon reaches. Armor spikes require person-to-person contact, and at that kind of distance (or lack thereof), a two-handed sword is useless except for pommel strikes or as an aid to certain grappling moves like arm bars. If you're standing at sufficient distance to make effective use of the sword, you're way too far out to use your armor spikes. IMHO, armor spikes should only be useable in very close-quarters fighting, i.e. with fists/daggers or grappling, not with a 5-1/2' sword.
bjorntfh 03-13-05, 03:22 PM	Or the guy could thrust past the opponent with the blade, trying to drag the edge along an unprotected area, slam with the spiked armor, kick the guy away with a spiked greave and then simultaneously draw the blade across the opponent as the kick pushes them away from each other. It's possible, but it would be hard. I think that's pretty well shown by a 20% reduction in accuracy (-4 to all attacks.)
Johannixx 03-13-05, 05:02 PM	Or the guy could thrust past the opponent with the blade, trying to drag the edge along an unprotected area, slam with the spiked armor, kick the guy away with a spiked greave and then simultaneously draw the blade across the opponent as the kick pushes them away from each other. It's possible, but it would be hard. I think that's pretty well shown by a 20% reduction in accuracy (-4 to all attacks.) Armor spikes are light weapons, so they only impose a -2 penalty. And do you really think a draw-cut with a blade is going to inflict the full 2d6 damage?
bjorntfh 03-13-05, 05:21 PM	Yes. If he's using a bastard sword it does 1d10, not 2d6, and an example of a bastard sword (in DnD terms) is the katana. You use it mostly in draw cuts. Pushing three feet of sharpened steel across someone's flesh is going to damage them. If you wanted you could snap the blade across the target after doing a thrust. Not as effective against armor, but sickeningly effecting against soft targets.
gbnogkfs 03-15-05, 03:54 PM	Except that the FAQ explicitly says it's both legal, and per the spirit of the rules. You can disagree, but armor spikes and two-handed weapons are not only legal, but have been confirmed as official. except the FAQ is inventing stuff here, as the rules speak about "primary hand" and "off-hand" when dealing about two-weapon fighting. If I have TWF, ITWF, STWF, can I make 7 Greatsword attacks?
bjorntfh 03-16-05, 10:12 AM	Of course. Just use Monkey Grip.
gbnogkfs 03-16-05, 10:20 AM	Of course. Just use Monkey Grip. not at all!
Blairconz 03-18-05, 02:38 AM	What a great turnout, thanks everyone. I just thought it might be e good way to get more out of a char. I'm currently DMing and I prefer to use my own variations on the core stuff because my party has access to the books. (For a long time we didn't.) Anyway, appreciated greatly :)