A couple of Qs~ [Archive] - Wizards Community

A couple of Qs~ [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shr3dZ
03-24-06, 02:47 PM Hi all,

So every 6 months or so I stop by for a 2-week long reading frenzy. I bumped into those articles titled "Rules of the game: All about ______". Ive read almost all of them within reason, and the explainations on how to Trip/Disarm/Sunder/Bull Rush etc are so clear Id really like to give them a shot, since the time 3rd Ed. came out I dont think our whole party has used any of those more than a handful of times. A shame really.

A) So, they give good examples of why you would want to sunder (sunder a mages staff to make him much less powerful), but most of the time, if you break a guys sword or staff, that just means theres less to grab once hes been defeated. I think thats mostly why none of our group uses sunder - what are your experiences with it? Also, if a guy is using a spear against you (reach 10'), instead of moving through his threatening zone, can you just sunder his weapon from 10' instead?

B) It didnt specifically say, or maybe it did, but can you Disarm or Sunder with a ranged weapon? Shooting a bow to knock a sword from someones hand seems unlikely but doable, is it possible with the RAW? And how about sundering with ranged? What if someone is trying to drink a potion, can you sunder the flask?

C) Being flat-footed in the first round of combat before your initiative comes up? We've never ever used that rule, is it new or did we just forget about it? and whats the point, so a rogue can walk up and sneak-attack someone in the first round as long as they get the higher init? Seems wierd, and playing without the rule hasnt really affected the way we play or anything... im confused.

D) just for the record, for all time - moving yer 5' step through someones threatening zone, does it provoke an AOO? This is more to settle an arguement more than anything else.

TIA!
rironin
03-24-06, 03:11 PM A) So, they give good examples of why you would want to sunder (sunder a mages staff to make him much less powerful), but most of the time, if you break a guys sword or staff, that just means theres less to grab once hes been defeated. I think thats mostly why none of our group uses sunder - what are your experiences with it? Also, if a guy is using a spear against you (reach 10'), instead of moving through his threatening zone, can you just sunder his weapon from 10' instead?It's true that in many ways sundering does reduce the amount of loot you get at the end - just one of the unfortunate consequences. I'm not sure if you could sunder the spear from 10 feet away or not. I would say no - there is no telling precisely where the spear is at any given moment during your turn. A character could be holding is spear pointed straight up at his side, and you wouldn't be able to sunder it from 10 feet away in that case. I'd say that you have to threaten the creature's square to assure that you can hack away at the weapon it's holding. Thus, you'd have to move through the threatened area to get to it. The upside of this is that when you incur the attack of opportunity for making the sunder attempt, your opponent won't be able to make it with the spear since you're only 5 feet away and he's holding a reach weapon. So it sort of cancels itself out.B) It didnt specifically say, or maybe it did, but can you Disarm or Sunder with a ranged weapon? Shooting a bow to knock a sword from someones hand seems unlikely but doable, is it possible with the RAW? And how about sundering with ranged? What if someone is trying to drink a potion, can you sunder the flask?The SRD does specifically say that Sunder and Disarm attempts are made as melee attacks. However, I've seen references to feats that allow you to perform these actions as ranged attacks. Can't remember what book they come from. Anyone?C) Being flat-footed in the first round of combat before your initiative comes up? We've never ever used that rule, is it new or did we just forget about it? and whats the point, so a rogue can walk up and sneak-attack someone in the first round as long as they get the higher init? Seems wierd, and playing without the rule hasnt really affected the way we play or anything... im confused.I believe this rule has been on the books since 3.0. You may be just fine playing without it, but I personally like it. It gives rogues a chance to exploit their quickness and possibly sneak attack even out in the open. Flat-footed creatures also can't make attacks of opportunity, so characters with higher initiative can run past them during that first round if need be without worrying about reprisals. I think this rule gives characters a reason to be concerned about initiative, and maybe even take Improved Initiative as a feat.D) just for the record, for all time - moving yer 5' step through someones threatening zone, does it provoke an AOO? This is more to settle an arguement more than anything else.From the SRD: "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." No, it doesn't provoke an AOO if that's the only movement you make that round. Otherwise, it might or it might not provoke an AOO.
tarkin
03-24-06, 03:24 PM rironin gave you good answers.

I would add:

1) Some Loose DM's let you sunder a weapon held by someone you can't hit but that can hit you only by readying an action to do it when they attack you.

2) In a loose Game, I would require the feats to do ranged sunder and ranged disarms

3) Not being flatfooted in the first round is a huge penalty against rogues. If you don't play with a rogue, it will hurt him tremodously.

Note, the Rogue should also have taken Improved Initiative. With that feat, and using the standard rules, he should get at least one more sneak attack most fights.
Nephlite
03-24-06, 03:31 PM Hi all,
A) So, they give good examples of why you would want to sunder (sunder a mages staff to make him much less powerful), but most of the time, if you break a guys sword or staff, that just means theres less to grab once hes been defeated. I think thats mostly why none of our group uses sunder - what are your experiences with it? Also, if a guy is using a spear against you (reach 10'), instead of moving through his threatening zone, can you just sunder his weapon from 10' instead?

What if it is am unholyweapon. Are you willing to sell that so the next evil dude can buy it? Arming the enemy isn't smart.
But it can be good in certain moments. The Lich has a Pyrlantry that revives him: sunder it! If you don't he comes back after he dies.

B) It didnt specifically say, or maybe it did, but can you Disarm or Sunder with a ranged weapon? Shooting a bow to knock a sword from someones hand seems unlikely but doable, is it possible with the RAW? And how about sundering with ranged? What if someone is trying to drink a potion, can you sunder the flask?

Nope, bows can't do that without a feat/class feature. The reason is bows can't make attacks of opportunity.

C) Being flat-footed in the first round of combat before your initiative comes up? We've never ever used that rule, is it new or did we just forget about it? and whats the point, so a rogue can walk up and sneak-attack someone in the first round as long as they get the higher init? Seems wierd, and playing without the rule hasnt really affected the way we play or anything... im confused.

Check out the feats: Blindfight (keep dex when flatfoot from melee attacks) or Combat reflexes (take attacks of opportunity while flatfoot), Class features: Uncanny dodge (keep dex to AC when flatfoot), Balance skill (without 5 ranks you are flatfoot), etc.
This has been establish since 3.0.

You guys have been house ruling since you don't follow that rule. I'd say based on whether you have rogues in yourgame it has affected your play. You deny rogues opportunies.

D) just for the record, for all time - moving yer 5' step through someones threatening zone, does it provoke an AOO? This is more to settle an arguement more than anything else.

Never, unless you are crawling (exception to never).
rironin
03-24-06, 03:46 PM Nope, bows can't do that without a feat/class feature. The reason is bows can't make attacks of opportunity.Huh? The fact that you can't make an attack of opportunity with a bow isn't what prevents you from disarming or sundering with it. Disarming and sundering can be made anytime you could make a normal attack, including but not limited to attacks of opportunity. The reason you can't disarm or sunder with a ranged attack is because the SRD specifically says disarm and sunder attempts are made as melee attacks. I assume that rule exists because it would be wildly overpowered if characters could make disarm and sunder attempts without suffering attacks of opportunity or even approaching the enemy, at least without investing in feats and powers that specifically enable them to do so.
OravennasBrother
03-24-06, 04:18 PM I've seen past discussions where someone claimed Sundering was SO bad an idea that hey would prefer to have their characeter killed to the replacement character would be properly equipped for their level, than lose the wealth which sundering an enemy weapon would cost them. I'm not sure about you, but if I, personally, were given the choice between destroying an item I could conceivably sell, or dying, I know what MY choice would be.
Shr3dZ
03-24-06, 04:57 PM Wow, thx for all the quick answers, all I had to do was go out for lunch, come back, hit refresh and bam, answers galore!

A) An unholy weapon is a good example on when to sunder a weapon.

B) So I cant shoot an arrow at a potion someones about to drink? Strange.

C) Wierd that we've never played with first round flatfootedness, this should stir things up a bit. I doubt, even IF a rogue could go up and shank a guy for massive dmg in the first round, that he would anyways, who knows how many attacks hes gonna take during the round... I suppose you would only do it when a good opportunity presents itself. Interesting that a fighter could run straight thru the croud without provoking AOOs to get to the weaker characters ie. mages etc. Also, it makes init even more important (my char has improved init), if I roll well in the first round Ill be able to shoot guys without their dex to help them - we play with the rule that you roll init once for the entire combat, would you say it would be any better to roll each round?
edit* is it fair to say that in the opening round you could walk up to a guy and trip him with provoking AOOs?

D) 5' step (by itself) never allows AOO, good.
Shr3dZ
03-24-06, 08:10 PM nvm

p.120 - flatfooted
gorfnad the shiznit
03-25-06, 05:48 AM B: Complete Warrior has the following feats in it: Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, and Ranged Sunder

C: Being flat-footed the first round of combat can be hazzardous to one's health. This is one reason high dex oriented dagger throwing rogue/master thrower characters are often extremely deadly.
RaspK FOG
03-25-06, 12:57 PM I really don't have the patience to check it out, but sundering an evil, truly evil weapon seems only natural for a paladin or whatever exalted character...
Shr3dZ
03-25-06, 01:47 PM [QUOTE=gorfnad the shiznit]B: Complete Warrior has the following feats in it: Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, and Ranged SunderQUOTE]

Does that mean youre not even allowed to attempt it without the feat? maybe at a minus or something...
Xaxor
03-25-06, 01:59 PM Well, you can only Sunder with a Slashing or Bludgeoning weapon to begin with...
Shr3dZ
04-05-06, 12:36 PM Howdy

Got a new question, thought Id use my old thread. It comes back to this 5' step not creating a AOO:

If you take a 5' step through a threatened square so that you can attack someone else, does it provoke AOO. Ill try to make a grafic:

Ok this is terrible but-

T is just a medium creature w/5' reach ('t' threatened)
R is a troll w/10' reach ('r' threatened)
M is the PC in question

----------
ttt-------
tTtrrrr---
ttrrrrr---
--CrRrr---
--rrrrr---
--rrrrr---
----------

If C moves '8' on the keypad 5 feet, then attacks T, is there a AOO?

From what Ive learned here, 5'step doesnt provoke AOO .... most times. Since the PC is making a melee full attack, that shouldnt provoke one either right?
Nom
04-05-06, 07:50 PM Core rules, the 5 ft. step never provokes an AoO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shr3dZ 03-24-06, 02:47 PM	Hi all, So every 6 months or so I stop by for a 2-week long reading frenzy. I bumped into those articles titled "Rules of the game: All about ______". Ive read almost all of them within reason, and the explainations on how to Trip/Disarm/Sunder/Bull Rush etc are so clear Id really like to give them a shot, since the time 3rd Ed. came out I dont think our whole party has used any of those more than a handful of times. A shame really. A) So, they give good examples of why you would want to sunder (sunder a mages staff to make him much less powerful), but most of the time, if you break a guys sword or staff, that just means theres less to grab once hes been defeated. I think thats mostly why none of our group uses sunder - what are your experiences with it? Also, if a guy is using a spear against you (reach 10'), instead of moving through his threatening zone, can you just sunder his weapon from 10' instead? B) It didnt specifically say, or maybe it did, but can you Disarm or Sunder with a ranged weapon? Shooting a bow to knock a sword from someones hand seems unlikely but doable, is it possible with the RAW? And how about sundering with ranged? What if someone is trying to drink a potion, can you sunder the flask? C) Being flat-footed in the first round of combat before your initiative comes up? We've never ever used that rule, is it new or did we just forget about it? and whats the point, so a rogue can walk up and sneak-attack someone in the first round as long as they get the higher init? Seems wierd, and playing without the rule hasnt really affected the way we play or anything... im confused. D) just for the record, for all time - moving yer 5' step through someones threatening zone, does it provoke an AOO? This is more to settle an arguement more than anything else. TIA!
rironin 03-24-06, 03:11 PM	A) So, they give good examples of why you would want to sunder (sunder a mages staff to make him much less powerful), but most of the time, if you break a guys sword or staff, that just means theres less to grab once hes been defeated. I think thats mostly why none of our group uses sunder - what are your experiences with it? Also, if a guy is using a spear against you (reach 10'), instead of moving through his threatening zone, can you just sunder his weapon from 10' instead?It's true that in many ways sundering does reduce the amount of loot you get at the end - just one of the unfortunate consequences. I'm not sure if you could sunder the spear from 10 feet away or not. I would say no - there is no telling precisely where the spear is at any given moment during your turn. A character could be holding is spear pointed straight up at his side, and you wouldn't be able to sunder it from 10 feet away in that case. I'd say that you have to threaten the creature's square to assure that you can hack away at the weapon it's holding. Thus, you'd have to move through the threatened area to get to it. The upside of this is that when you incur the attack of opportunity for making the sunder attempt, your opponent won't be able to make it with the spear since you're only 5 feet away and he's holding a reach weapon. So it sort of cancels itself out.B) It didnt specifically say, or maybe it did, but can you Disarm or Sunder with a ranged weapon? Shooting a bow to knock a sword from someones hand seems unlikely but doable, is it possible with the RAW? And how about sundering with ranged? What if someone is trying to drink a potion, can you sunder the flask?The SRD does specifically say that Sunder and Disarm attempts are made as melee attacks. However, I've seen references to feats that allow you to perform these actions as ranged attacks. Can't remember what book they come from. Anyone?C) Being flat-footed in the first round of combat before your initiative comes up? We've never ever used that rule, is it new or did we just forget about it? and whats the point, so a rogue can walk up and sneak-attack someone in the first round as long as they get the higher init? Seems wierd, and playing without the rule hasnt really affected the way we play or anything... im confused.I believe this rule has been on the books since 3.0. You may be just fine playing without it, but I personally like it. It gives rogues a chance to exploit their quickness and possibly sneak attack even out in the open. Flat-footed creatures also can't make attacks of opportunity, so characters with higher initiative can run past them during that first round if need be without worrying about reprisals. I think this rule gives characters a reason to be concerned about initiative, and maybe even take Improved Initiative as a feat.D) just for the record, for all time - moving yer 5' step through someones threatening zone, does it provoke an AOO? This is more to settle an arguement more than anything else.From the SRD: "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." No, it doesn't provoke an AOO if that's the only movement you make that round. Otherwise, it might or it might not provoke an AOO.
tarkin 03-24-06, 03:24 PM	rironin gave you good answers. I would add: 1) Some Loose DM's let you sunder a weapon held by someone you can't hit but that can hit you only by readying an action to do it when they attack you. 2) In a loose Game, I would require the feats to do ranged sunder and ranged disarms 3) Not being flatfooted in the first round is a huge penalty against rogues. If you don't play with a rogue, it will hurt him tremodously. Note, the Rogue should also have taken Improved Initiative. With that feat, and using the standard rules, he should get at least one more sneak attack most fights.
Nephlite 03-24-06, 03:31 PM	Hi all, A) So, they give good examples of why you would want to sunder (sunder a mages staff to make him much less powerful), but most of the time, if you break a guys sword or staff, that just means theres less to grab once hes been defeated. I think thats mostly why none of our group uses sunder - what are your experiences with it? Also, if a guy is using a spear against you (reach 10'), instead of moving through his threatening zone, can you just sunder his weapon from 10' instead? What if it is am unholyweapon. Are you willing to sell that so the next evil dude can buy it? Arming the enemy isn't smart. But it can be good in certain moments. The Lich has a Pyrlantry that revives him: sunder it! If you don't he comes back after he dies. B) It didnt specifically say, or maybe it did, but can you Disarm or Sunder with a ranged weapon? Shooting a bow to knock a sword from someones hand seems unlikely but doable, is it possible with the RAW? And how about sundering with ranged? What if someone is trying to drink a potion, can you sunder the flask? Nope, bows can't do that without a feat/class feature. The reason is bows can't make attacks of opportunity. C) Being flat-footed in the first round of combat before your initiative comes up? We've never ever used that rule, is it new or did we just forget about it? and whats the point, so a rogue can walk up and sneak-attack someone in the first round as long as they get the higher init? Seems wierd, and playing without the rule hasnt really affected the way we play or anything... im confused. Check out the feats: Blindfight (keep dex when flatfoot from melee attacks) or Combat reflexes (take attacks of opportunity while flatfoot), Class features: Uncanny dodge (keep dex to AC when flatfoot), Balance skill (without 5 ranks you are flatfoot), etc. This has been establish since 3.0. You guys have been house ruling since you don't follow that rule. I'd say based on whether you have rogues in yourgame it has affected your play. You deny rogues opportunies. D) just for the record, for all time - moving yer 5' step through someones threatening zone, does it provoke an AOO? This is more to settle an arguement more than anything else. Never, unless you are crawling (exception to never).
rironin 03-24-06, 03:46 PM	Nope, bows can't do that without a feat/class feature. The reason is bows can't make attacks of opportunity.Huh? The fact that you can't make an attack of opportunity with a bow isn't what prevents you from disarming or sundering with it. Disarming and sundering can be made anytime you could make a normal attack, including but not limited to attacks of opportunity. The reason you can't disarm or sunder with a ranged attack is because the SRD specifically says disarm and sunder attempts are made as melee attacks. I assume that rule exists because it would be wildly overpowered if characters could make disarm and sunder attempts without suffering attacks of opportunity or even approaching the enemy, at least without investing in feats and powers that specifically enable them to do so.
OravennasBrother 03-24-06, 04:18 PM	I've seen past discussions where someone claimed Sundering was SO bad an idea that hey would prefer to have their characeter killed to the replacement character would be properly equipped for their level, than lose the wealth which sundering an enemy weapon would cost them. I'm not sure about you, but if I, personally, were given the choice between destroying an item I could conceivably sell, or dying, I know what MY choice would be.
Shr3dZ 03-24-06, 04:57 PM	Wow, thx for all the quick answers, all I had to do was go out for lunch, come back, hit refresh and bam, answers galore! A) An unholy weapon is a good example on when to sunder a weapon. B) So I cant shoot an arrow at a potion someones about to drink? Strange. C) Wierd that we've never played with first round flatfootedness, this should stir things up a bit. I doubt, even IF a rogue could go up and shank a guy for massive dmg in the first round, that he would anyways, who knows how many attacks hes gonna take during the round... I suppose you would only do it when a good opportunity presents itself. Interesting that a fighter could run straight thru the croud without provoking AOOs to get to the weaker characters ie. mages etc. Also, it makes init even more important (my char has improved init), if I roll well in the first round Ill be able to shoot guys without their dex to help them - we play with the rule that you roll init once for the entire combat, would you say it would be any better to roll each round? edit* is it fair to say that in the opening round you could walk up to a guy and trip him with provoking AOOs? D) 5' step (by itself) never allows AOO, good.
Shr3dZ 03-24-06, 08:10 PM	nvm p.120 - flatfooted
gorfnad the shiznit 03-25-06, 05:48 AM	B: Complete Warrior has the following feats in it: Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, and Ranged Sunder C: Being flat-footed the first round of combat can be hazzardous to one's health. This is one reason high dex oriented dagger throwing rogue/master thrower characters are often extremely deadly.
RaspK FOG 03-25-06, 12:57 PM	I really don't have the patience to check it out, but sundering an evil, truly evil weapon seems only natural for a paladin or whatever exalted character...
Shr3dZ 03-25-06, 01:47 PM	[QUOTE=gorfnad the shiznit]B: Complete Warrior has the following feats in it: Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, and Ranged SunderQUOTE] Does that mean youre not even allowed to attempt it without the feat? maybe at a minus or something...
Xaxor 03-25-06, 01:59 PM	Well, you can only Sunder with a Slashing or Bludgeoning weapon to begin with...
Shr3dZ 04-05-06, 12:36 PM	Howdy Got a new question, thought Id use my old thread. It comes back to this 5' step not creating a AOO: If you take a 5' step through a threatened square so that you can attack someone else, does it provoke AOO. Ill try to make a grafic: Ok this is terrible but- T is just a medium creature w/5' reach ('t' threatened) R is a troll w/10' reach ('r' threatened) M is the PC in question ---------- ttt------- tTtrrrr--- ttrrrrr--- --CrRrr--- --rrrrr--- --rrrrr--- ---------- If C moves '8' on the keypad 5 feet, then attacks T, is there a AOO? From what Ive learned here, 5'step doesnt provoke AOO .... most times. Since the PC is making a melee full attack, that shouldnt provoke one either right?
Nom 04-05-06, 07:50 PM	Core rules, the 5 ft. step never provokes an AoO.