A couple questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

A couple questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bpatel02
08-08-07, 10:15 PM Hi

Had a couple combat question involving attacks of opportunity and Sunder/Disarm. First of all, on page 141 of PHB under note 7 it says you can make a disarm, trip, or grapple attemt for your attack of opportunity. I couldn't find this statement mentioned anywhere else; my question is there a reason Sunder is not on this list? Can I sunder as an attack of opportunity?

Also, I am using a glaive and I have acted (i.e. not flat footed). A guy charges me with a longsword. He provokes as he leaves the square 10 ft away from me. I disarm (or perhaps sunder if you can do this as part of an Attack of opportunity) and remove his weapon. He now is unarmed, before he gets to me to attack. How does the charge attack get resolved? Does he move to within 5 ft and try to attack me with an unarmed strike? Is the charge action cancelled as soon as the sword is disarmed, and he lose his action and stop 10ft or 5ft from me?

Thank you in advance for the help. Sorry if I missed the answers to the questions in the book.
1 ton ghost
08-08-07, 10:44 PM here it goes for what it's worth:

i thought (think) any attack action is pretty much valid for AoO's, and if they're not, they should be. the extra element is nice rather just, "i hit, i miss" kinda' plain vanilla combat. sunder should be on it. i'd allow it unless it was a bizarre situation.

your hypothetical: gotta' have 10ft+ to charge so i'm assuming he's workin' up on you beyond 10ft, hits the 10ft threat and still moving, you get the AoO (he gets -2AC=charge) and sunder or disarm, assuming it works out (you kick ass, right? heh...), i'd give him the option of an unarmed attack (which normally would draw another attack for stepping into your square [he's not armed anymore]) or allow him to draw another weapon as part of his move action (charging up on you, though many say it is strictly a Full Rnd. Action, not a move, though you are physically moving...alot) and carry out his charge attack normally.

he shouldn't be further penalized for losing his weapon. he should be able to carry on. strictly, only real option is to grapple/unarmed strike post charge.
JadeSpider9643
08-09-07, 12:29 AM Disarm, sunder (and btw also Grapple & Trip) can be used in place of any melee attack. since you don't need to activate a Standard or Move action to perform them, you can use them on an AoO.
Nom
08-09-07, 01:47 AM First of all, on page 141 of PHB under note 7 it says you can make a disarm, trip, or grapple attemt for your attack of opportunity. I couldn't find this statement mentioned anywhere else;It's implicit in the descriptions: they specify "as a melee attack" or similar. Which means they are legal whenever you make a melee attack, which is not exactly the same thing as the "attack" standard action.
my question is there a reason Sunder is not on this list? Can I sunder as an attack of opportunity?Debate rages as to whether listing Sunder as a standard action was deliberate or a mistake. The actual text of Sunder does not explicitly require it to be a standard action.
Also, I am using a glaive and I have acted (i.e. not flat footed). A guy charges me with a longsword. He provokes as he leaves the square 10 ft away from me. I disarm (or perhaps sunder if you can do this as part of an Attack of opportunity) and remove his weapon. He now is unarmed, before he gets to me to attack. How does the charge attack get resolved? Does he move to within 5 ft and try to attack me with an unarmed strike? Is the charge action cancelled as soon as the sword is disarmed, and he lose his action and stop 10ft or 5ft from me?His charge action is not cancelled (unless he wants it to be), but he is now unarmed. He can proceed to 5 ft. range and attack you with an unarmed strike or special attack, or Quick Draw a weapon and finish the charge as normal.

If he has not moved more than a single move action's distance, many DMs will allow him to abort the rest of the charge and regain a move (or even standard) action. In this case, he loses the +2 attack bonus but retains the charge penalty. Note that this is DM fiat, not RAW - RAW doesn't actually cover what happens if you fail to complete a charge.
bpatel02
08-09-07, 01:57 AM As I expected for Sunder. I am really having a hard time accepting that the opponet is able to react fast enough to draw a new weapon and attack (unless he has quick draw). What stops someone from declaring a charge while not have a weapon out and drawing the weapon as he charges? This would actually make sense, you have plenty of time to draw, but is not supported by rules. I just don't see how drawing a new weapon makes sense rules or reality wise. I am really interested in hearing other people's responses to this question, so I can see what the majority of people think this situation should be handled.

I don't know why this is not covered in the FAQ or book. Seems like a situation that could pop up a lot with a reach weapon and Improved Disarm/Sunder.
terrashand
08-09-07, 02:02 AM Use the glaive and play with knockdown if your DM will still let you use it. It is a feat in the old Sword and Fist (not sure if it is in 3.5). Take your AOO attack and deal 10 or more and then trip him as a free action.

You hit him so hard he falls down...take a second and imagine that in your head. Someone running full speed at you getting hit by a glaive and flying forward to land at your feet (momentum...) ouch!
Nom
08-09-07, 06:32 AM As I expected for Sunder. I am really having a hard time accepting that the opponet is able to react fast enough to draw a new weapon and attack (unless he has quick draw).Agreed. He can't. He could still attack unarmed, if he wished.
What stops someone from declaring a charge while not have a weapon out and drawing the weapon as he charges?You can only draw a weapon as part of a "regular move", which charge is not. If you're still drawing the weapon, you are merely hustling, not yet charging.

Of course, Quick Draw changes all this, but it is a feat.
Kouk
08-09-07, 08:50 AM I allow drawing as part of a Charge, but that's me.

Anyway, assuming you successfully Disarm the attacker, I would think there would be no problem with him continuing onwards and using his unarmed strike (taking the gamble that you only have a single AoO per round) to hit you or to Grapple.

But really, everyone should have at least a Spiked Gauntlet or Spiked Armor, just in case these sorts of things come up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bpatel02 08-08-07, 10:15 PM	Hi Had a couple combat question involving attacks of opportunity and Sunder/Disarm. First of all, on page 141 of PHB under note 7 it says you can make a disarm, trip, or grapple attemt for your attack of opportunity. I couldn't find this statement mentioned anywhere else; my question is there a reason Sunder is not on this list? Can I sunder as an attack of opportunity? Also, I am using a glaive and I have acted (i.e. not flat footed). A guy charges me with a longsword. He provokes as he leaves the square 10 ft away from me. I disarm (or perhaps sunder if you can do this as part of an Attack of opportunity) and remove his weapon. He now is unarmed, before he gets to me to attack. How does the charge attack get resolved? Does he move to within 5 ft and try to attack me with an unarmed strike? Is the charge action cancelled as soon as the sword is disarmed, and he lose his action and stop 10ft or 5ft from me? Thank you in advance for the help. Sorry if I missed the answers to the questions in the book.
1 ton ghost 08-08-07, 10:44 PM	here it goes for what it's worth: i thought (think) any attack action is pretty much valid for AoO's, and if they're not, they should be. the extra element is nice rather just, "i hit, i miss" kinda' plain vanilla combat. sunder should be on it. i'd allow it unless it was a bizarre situation. your hypothetical: gotta' have 10ft+ to charge so i'm assuming he's workin' up on you beyond 10ft, hits the 10ft threat and still moving, you get the AoO (he gets -2AC=charge) and sunder or disarm, assuming it works out (you kick ass, right? heh...), i'd give him the option of an unarmed attack (which normally would draw another attack for stepping into your square [he's not armed anymore]) or allow him to draw another weapon as part of his move action (charging up on you, though many say it is strictly a Full Rnd. Action, not a move, though you are physically moving...alot) and carry out his charge attack normally. he shouldn't be further penalized for losing his weapon. he should be able to carry on. strictly, only real option is to grapple/unarmed strike post charge.
JadeSpider9643 08-09-07, 12:29 AM	Disarm, sunder (and btw also Grapple & Trip) can be used in place of any melee attack. since you don't need to activate a Standard or Move action to perform them, you can use them on an AoO.
Nom 08-09-07, 01:47 AM	First of all, on page 141 of PHB under note 7 it says you can make a disarm, trip, or grapple attemt for your attack of opportunity. I couldn't find this statement mentioned anywhere else;It's implicit in the descriptions: they specify "as a melee attack" or similar. Which means they are legal whenever you make a melee attack, which is not exactly the same thing as the "attack" standard action. my question is there a reason Sunder is not on this list? Can I sunder as an attack of opportunity?Debate rages as to whether listing Sunder as a standard action was deliberate or a mistake. The actual text of Sunder does not explicitly require it to be a standard action. Also, I am using a glaive and I have acted (i.e. not flat footed). A guy charges me with a longsword. He provokes as he leaves the square 10 ft away from me. I disarm (or perhaps sunder if you can do this as part of an Attack of opportunity) and remove his weapon. He now is unarmed, before he gets to me to attack. How does the charge attack get resolved? Does he move to within 5 ft and try to attack me with an unarmed strike? Is the charge action cancelled as soon as the sword is disarmed, and he lose his action and stop 10ft or 5ft from me?His charge action is not cancelled (unless he wants it to be), but he is now unarmed. He can proceed to 5 ft. range and attack you with an unarmed strike or special attack, or Quick Draw a weapon and finish the charge as normal. If he has not moved more than a single move action's distance, many DMs will allow him to abort the rest of the charge and regain a move (or even standard) action. In this case, he loses the +2 attack bonus but retains the charge penalty. Note that this is DM fiat, not RAW - RAW doesn't actually cover what happens if you fail to complete a charge.
bpatel02 08-09-07, 01:57 AM	As I expected for Sunder. I am really having a hard time accepting that the opponet is able to react fast enough to draw a new weapon and attack (unless he has quick draw). What stops someone from declaring a charge while not have a weapon out and drawing the weapon as he charges? This would actually make sense, you have plenty of time to draw, but is not supported by rules. I just don't see how drawing a new weapon makes sense rules or reality wise. I am really interested in hearing other people's responses to this question, so I can see what the majority of people think this situation should be handled. I don't know why this is not covered in the FAQ or book. Seems like a situation that could pop up a lot with a reach weapon and Improved Disarm/Sunder.
terrashand 08-09-07, 02:02 AM	Use the glaive and play with knockdown if your DM will still let you use it. It is a feat in the old Sword and Fist (not sure if it is in 3.5). Take your AOO attack and deal 10 or more and then trip him as a free action. You hit him so hard he falls down...take a second and imagine that in your head. Someone running full speed at you getting hit by a glaive and flying forward to land at your feet (momentum...) ouch!
Nom 08-09-07, 06:32 AM	As I expected for Sunder. I am really having a hard time accepting that the opponet is able to react fast enough to draw a new weapon and attack (unless he has quick draw).Agreed. He can't. He could still attack unarmed, if he wished. What stops someone from declaring a charge while not have a weapon out and drawing the weapon as he charges?You can only draw a weapon as part of a "regular move", which charge is not. If you're still drawing the weapon, you are merely hustling, not yet charging. Of course, Quick Draw changes all this, but it is a feat.
Kouk 08-09-07, 08:50 AM	I allow drawing as part of a Charge, but that's me. Anyway, assuming you successfully Disarm the attacker, I would think there would be no problem with him continuing onwards and using his unarmed strike (taking the gamble that you only have a single AoO per round) to hit you or to Grapple. But really, everyone should have at least a Spiked Gauntlet or Spiked Armor, just in case these sorts of things come up.