A CRUSHING victory? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A CRUSHING victory? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RAGIR
07-25-06, 11:29 AM Our party is currently in the midst of an epic battle and the odds are most definitely against us. Thus, in the spirit of radical thinking, I believe I've come up with a solution that I'm hoping you could all weigh in on. My plan is to literally crush my enemies (five powerful generals to be specific).

To do this, I'm going to buff five 20th-level sorcerers with the usual enhancements (ie. STR, DEX, AC, etc) plus the "Fly" and "Greater Invisibility" spells. Then five additional sorcerers (who can fly as well) will teleport each of the buffed sorcerers to a position 25' off the ground and centered over the heads of each of the five evil generals (keep in mind all the sorcerers are invisible). Next, the buffed sorcerers will polymorph themselves into colossal Gelatinous Cubes and subsequently fall onto the generals. I would have liked to use Shapechange but it wasn't available to me.

Now here's where I need your help. A gelatinous cube is huge and weighs 50,000 lbs. Thus, a colossal cube would be two size increments larger. My understanding is that weight increases by a factor of "8" for every size increase. Thus it's weight increases to 400,000 lbs as gargantuan (50000x8) then up to 3,200,000 lbs as colossal (400000x8). Based on the falling damage tables in the DMG, every 200 lbs does 1d6 damage for every 10' it falls. Thus my crushing damage will be 16000d6. Hopefully that's enough to hurt them, haha. Next would be the size. A huge gelatinous cube has a space/reach of 15'/10'. Once it becomes colossal would it now be 30'/20'? This is also why I choose a starting position of 25' because that should put a 30' creature 10' off the ground. The damage to my sorcerers would therefore be nothing since falling the first 10' is always free. Have I done this correctly so far?

Lastly, what's your thoughts on the actual "attack" process. I have two thoughts. The first would be to simply drop. I don't know if that requires an attack roll or just a reflex check by the general. Since gelatinous cubes are transparent and I'm already invisible I don't know if they would even get a reflex check or at what penalty. My second option would be to "charge" and slam. This, of course would require an attack roll. I can't quite figure out how the DM will rule on the success of my actions so I'm trying to think of multiple ways to achieve it.

BTW, I'm using gelatinous cubes instead of something else like a colossal earth elemental because of the 30'x30' footprint plus the engulf and constricting abilities it has since some of the generals have spell casting capabilities.... that's only if they somehow survive of course!! I also realize this ooze only has an INT of 1 but I'm hoping the secondary sorcerers will be able to dispel the polymorph on the next round to get them back into the battle.

I'd really appreciate your thoughts on my plan and of course to let me know if you've noticed any I've overlooked or could improve on.

Thanks!
tarkin
07-25-06, 12:12 PM First, I suspect you are not going to like my answer.

1) Polymorphing does not let you pick variations - you have to be the normal, unimproved variety listed in the Monster Manual. So no, you can't choose to become a Collossal Gelatinous cube. You have to be LARGE, you can't even be Huge, because the Huge version is 'advanced'.

2) An attack is something you aim. It would be rolled by the person releasing the missile, and they must be proficient and capable of lifting the missile (or they could not aim it). As they are falling to the ground, it is not aimed. If they were flying to the ground, they could aim themselves, but damage would be limited as they were flying, not falling. So unless you got someone or thing capable of throwing the living missile, it should be a reflex save.

3) The reflex save is in fact easy. They are transparent, NOT invisbile, Teleporation is NOT quite, and you got people carrying them appearing. No way will they not be noticed. Appearing 25 feet up gives them about 1 second to move, MORE then enough time to move your full move and get out of the way. To make it a hard Reflex save, you need some kind of invisibility and some kind of silence effect.

4) Falling damage is clearly capped for height, and can be interpreted as capped for weight as well. Certianly it SHOULD be capped for size. I.E. If a giant cube falls towards you, then chances are it will NOT first hit your head, particularly if you are ducking. Instead the first contact will be an edge/corner with the ground or tree, or rock, which will absorb MOST of the damage, leaving you to take a minor fraction of it. A Large falling Gelationus cube falling 25 it an open field, would do no more than 10d6 of falling damage, Reflex save of 20 to negate entirely.

5) While the victim of the fall should take less damage (as the cube could hit corner right next to them first), the cube tiself should take full damage, maxed out at 20d6.

6) If you are willing to forget about falling damage, you could have them appear right above them. This becomes a much harder save, with no falling damage, but you have a good shot of hitting and doing the engulf.

--------------
Note, YES, it is possible to implement ridiculously high damage rules for what you want. It becomes an instant kill effect, which means the enemey should also be planing on doing it to them LONG before they ever thought of doing it to the enemey.

In a Strict or Loose Game I forsee your plan being incredibally foolish - doing more damage to you than to the enemey. In a Power Game, the DM might let it happen, then have all the bad guys start using it on the players.
RAGIR
07-25-06, 12:44 PM Thanks Tarkin. I do like your answers since that's just the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I knew falling damage was capped at 20d6 but I thought crushing damage would be different.

Oh well, back to the drawing board. :weep:
shruggar
07-25-06, 12:55 PM 1) is true, but in order to maintain the conversation, you could just PAO into a collossal brick.
2) "You couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with that thing!" but could you hit that thing with the broad side of a barn? I'd say yes. There is no concievable way that you can fail to hit something 6x the size of something(immobile) else. You would need to roll to see if you /miss/ if you were actively trying to. I'd say roll 1d20 to see if you somehow fail miserably. If you do, a +10 to +20 to their reflex save
3) he cast greater invisibility. Still, it's gotta have some other forboding non-visual effect, so a reflex save would be allowed. Quite a difficult one, needing to move 15' in any direction to avoid the hit.
4) if the whole of the object struck all at once, maybe. What you have is the damage which will be done to the ground(which has quite a few hit points) and to the cube. If you were to stick with the GC, also note that such is not an entirely rigid surface. While it can still do damage, it could be limited. At that much weight, with that much force, least-resistence applies and you could just wind up stabbing generals into the cube.
5) applies, though with so many epic casters around why you dont just PAO a stone into a small mountain(very small) and drop /that/ is beyond me (unless a sensible DM has toned down PAO)
6) Relying on sheer weight to crush them would work. Falling damage is stupid to bother with when you're that size.
fatal error
07-25-06, 01:59 PM Neat idea, although I'd think the cubes would probably just end up doing minor damage to the generals and end up having them automatically engulfed.

Which brings up another thought, if you polymorphed into an ooze next to someone, could you automatically engulf them as you expand? I'd guess not, along the same lines as not being able to use enlarge person to kill someone, however, it would be neat.
RAGIR
07-25-06, 01:59 PM Thanks Shruggar. PAO on a rock (or something) was my second choice but since damage is capped at 20d6 then it's still no good. That's just not enough damage for these boys! :(
shruggar
07-25-06, 02:15 PM well technically the cap is 20d6 per 10' increment. That's damage from "falling", crushing damage is a seperate calculation (which I can't find) and happens once per round when a large weight is on top of you. Least resistence applies, so after a couple rounds anyone still within is no longer taking crushing damage and is at that point burried.. unless you Mud To Rock the ground first ;)

Automatic engulf is disallowed for several reasons, but Enlarge Person's description is not one of them :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RAGIR 07-25-06, 11:29 AM	Our party is currently in the midst of an epic battle and the odds are most definitely against us. Thus, in the spirit of radical thinking, I believe I've come up with a solution that I'm hoping you could all weigh in on. My plan is to literally crush my enemies (five powerful generals to be specific). To do this, I'm going to buff five 20th-level sorcerers with the usual enhancements (ie. STR, DEX, AC, etc) plus the "Fly" and "Greater Invisibility" spells. Then five additional sorcerers (who can fly as well) will teleport each of the buffed sorcerers to a position 25' off the ground and centered over the heads of each of the five evil generals (keep in mind all the sorcerers are invisible). Next, the buffed sorcerers will polymorph themselves into colossal Gelatinous Cubes and subsequently fall onto the generals. I would have liked to use Shapechange but it wasn't available to me. Now here's where I need your help. A gelatinous cube is huge and weighs 50,000 lbs. Thus, a colossal cube would be two size increments larger. My understanding is that weight increases by a factor of "8" for every size increase. Thus it's weight increases to 400,000 lbs as gargantuan (50000x8) then up to 3,200,000 lbs as colossal (400000x8). Based on the falling damage tables in the DMG, every 200 lbs does 1d6 damage for every 10' it falls. Thus my crushing damage will be 16000d6. Hopefully that's enough to hurt them, haha. Next would be the size. A huge gelatinous cube has a space/reach of 15'/10'. Once it becomes colossal would it now be 30'/20'? This is also why I choose a starting position of 25' because that should put a 30' creature 10' off the ground. The damage to my sorcerers would therefore be nothing since falling the first 10' is always free. Have I done this correctly so far? Lastly, what's your thoughts on the actual "attack" process. I have two thoughts. The first would be to simply drop. I don't know if that requires an attack roll or just a reflex check by the general. Since gelatinous cubes are transparent and I'm already invisible I don't know if they would even get a reflex check or at what penalty. My second option would be to "charge" and slam. This, of course would require an attack roll. I can't quite figure out how the DM will rule on the success of my actions so I'm trying to think of multiple ways to achieve it. BTW, I'm using gelatinous cubes instead of something else like a colossal earth elemental because of the 30'x30' footprint plus the engulf and constricting abilities it has since some of the generals have spell casting capabilities.... that's only if they somehow survive of course!! I also realize this ooze only has an INT of 1 but I'm hoping the secondary sorcerers will be able to dispel the polymorph on the next round to get them back into the battle. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on my plan and of course to let me know if you've noticed any I've overlooked or could improve on. Thanks!
tarkin 07-25-06, 12:12 PM	First, I suspect you are not going to like my answer. 1) Polymorphing does not let you pick variations - you have to be the normal, unimproved variety listed in the Monster Manual. So no, you can't choose to become a Collossal Gelatinous cube. You have to be LARGE, you can't even be Huge, because the Huge version is 'advanced'. 2) An attack is something you aim. It would be rolled by the person releasing the missile, and they must be proficient and capable of lifting the missile (or they could not aim it). As they are falling to the ground, it is not aimed. If they were flying to the ground, they could aim themselves, but damage would be limited as they were flying, not falling. So unless you got someone or thing capable of throwing the living missile, it should be a reflex save. 3) The reflex save is in fact easy. They are transparent, NOT invisbile, Teleporation is NOT quite, and you got people carrying them appearing. No way will they not be noticed. Appearing 25 feet up gives them about 1 second to move, MORE then enough time to move your full move and get out of the way. To make it a hard Reflex save, you need some kind of invisibility and some kind of silence effect. 4) Falling damage is clearly capped for height, and can be interpreted as capped for weight as well. Certianly it SHOULD be capped for size. I.E. If a giant cube falls towards you, then chances are it will NOT first hit your head, particularly if you are ducking. Instead the first contact will be an edge/corner with the ground or tree, or rock, which will absorb MOST of the damage, leaving you to take a minor fraction of it. A Large falling Gelationus cube falling 25 it an open field, would do no more than 10d6 of falling damage, Reflex save of 20 to negate entirely. 5) While the victim of the fall should take less damage (as the cube could hit corner right next to them first), the cube tiself should take full damage, maxed out at 20d6. 6) If you are willing to forget about falling damage, you could have them appear right above them. This becomes a much harder save, with no falling damage, but you have a good shot of hitting and doing the engulf. -------------- Note, YES, it is possible to implement ridiculously high damage rules for what you want. It becomes an instant kill effect, which means the enemey should also be planing on doing it to them LONG before they ever thought of doing it to the enemey. In a Strict or Loose Game I forsee your plan being incredibally foolish - doing more damage to you than to the enemey. In a Power Game, the DM might let it happen, then have all the bad guys start using it on the players.
RAGIR 07-25-06, 12:44 PM	Thanks Tarkin. I do like your answers since that's just the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I knew falling damage was capped at 20d6 but I thought crushing damage would be different. Oh well, back to the drawing board. :weep:
shruggar 07-25-06, 12:55 PM	1) is true, but in order to maintain the conversation, you could just PAO into a collossal brick. 2) "You couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with that thing!" but could you hit that thing with the broad side of a barn? I'd say yes. There is no concievable way that you can fail to hit something 6x the size of something(immobile) else. You would need to roll to see if you /miss/ if you were actively trying to. I'd say roll 1d20 to see if you somehow fail miserably. If you do, a +10 to +20 to their reflex save 3) he cast greater invisibility. Still, it's gotta have some other forboding non-visual effect, so a reflex save would be allowed. Quite a difficult one, needing to move 15' in any direction to avoid the hit. 4) if the whole of the object struck all at once, maybe. What you have is the damage which will be done to the ground(which has quite a few hit points) and to the cube. If you were to stick with the GC, also note that such is not an entirely rigid surface. While it can still do damage, it could be limited. At that much weight, with that much force, least-resistence applies and you could just wind up stabbing generals into the cube. 5) applies, though with so many epic casters around why you dont just PAO a stone into a small mountain(very small) and drop /that/ is beyond me (unless a sensible DM has toned down PAO) 6) Relying on sheer weight to crush them would work. Falling damage is stupid to bother with when you're that size.
fatal error 07-25-06, 01:59 PM	Neat idea, although I'd think the cubes would probably just end up doing minor damage to the generals and end up having them automatically engulfed. Which brings up another thought, if you polymorphed into an ooze next to someone, could you automatically engulf them as you expand? I'd guess not, along the same lines as not being able to use enlarge person to kill someone, however, it would be neat.
RAGIR 07-25-06, 01:59 PM	Thanks Shruggar. PAO on a rock (or something) was my second choice but since damage is capped at 20d6 then it's still no good. That's just not enough damage for these boys! :(
shruggar 07-25-06, 02:15 PM	well technically the cap is 20d6 per 10' increment. That's damage from "falling", crushing damage is a seperate calculation (which I can't find) and happens once per round when a large weight is on top of you. Least resistence applies, so after a couple rounds anyone still within is no longer taking crushing damage and is at that point burried.. unless you Mud To Rock the ground first ;) Automatic engulf is disallowed for several reasons, but Enlarge Person's description is not one of them :)