A Cryptex... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Cryptex... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Berwick
06-08-06, 04:41 PM Hmm, please check out the following, and let me know if:

1) I did my math right...

2) This isn't fundamentally broken...

The Cryptex

On a formed pillow of carmine silk, lies a cylindrical device made of burnished copper and what looks to be cherry wood. The craftsmanship is exquisite. There seems to be five copper disks containing glyphs of some sort, with cherry wood spacers, capped on either end with tooled copper end caps. The whole device is perhaps 7.5” inches long, with a diameter of approximately 3.5”, and seems to weigh close to two pounds. There are markers on one face of the end caps that seem to indicate a line where glyphs from the five different wheels seem to line up. The wheels rotate independently, and they can be aligned with the markers in some sort of combination.

The Cryptex is a mobile vault, small enough to keep in a satchel or saddlebags. They are most often used to send secure messages, often having the correct sequence sent separately in encrypted form, often as a riddle.

The device has no opening, and because of the end caps, the interior is not only hidden from the viewer’s eye, but inaccessible with tools. There are minute cracks, but only large enough for liquid to pass through.

A very astute individual (read epic level rogue) may notice that in spinning the copper disks, there seems to be 5 different places where they catch slightly. This reduces the number of possible combinations from 7,893,600 to 120.

The individual only gets one attempt to open the cryptex. Messages are normally stored inside the cryptex, on papyrus, wrapped around a vial of specially prepared acid. The acid will eat the papyrus, but will not affect the materials of the cryptex, which are also treated with a special sealant that protects it. If the wrong combination is entered, and the cryptex is pulled apart, a mechanism on the inside will break the vial, and destroy the message. Even if the cryptex is nested, they are constructed in such a way as to break the vial if the outer cryptex is not opened properly.

Obviously, the Cryptex is designed to be opened easily by someone who knows the appropriate combination, but neigh impossible for someone who is attempting to bypass the cryptex.

Cost: 50450; CR: 3

CR Modifiers:
Base 0
Search DC (45) +2
Can not fail a search check +1
Total +3

Cost Modifiers:
Base 1000
Trigger, Touch (attached) -100
Search DC (45) +15000
Total 15900

Extra Costs:
Never Miss@ +1000
Complex Search Check* +1250
One Failure = Very bad* +1500

@= ad hoc added to explain lack of ability to disable device
* = Taken from the SRD link below, referance the section on disable device checks. (ad hoc)

Total Cost for trap:
(Modified Cost x CR) x Extra Costs = Total Cost of Trap
(15900 * 3)+2750= 50450

Search DC:
The individual must succeed at a complex search skill check. They must succeed five times to get the correct sequence, and there are false answers built into the cryptex.

DC 20 (false) +200(0) = 0
DC 25 (false) +200(5) = 1000
DC 30 (false) +200(10) = 2000
DC 35 (false) +200(15) = 3000
DC 40 (false) +200(20) = 4000
DC 45 (True) +200(25) = 5000
Total Cost = 15000

Complex Skill Checks can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm)

EDIT: Fixed some clerical errors
Thorak
06-08-06, 05:41 PM I cast "Knock", and laugh at whoever spent 50,000 gold on something defeatable by a common second level spell.

Not to mention, the cryptex is just one of many things that really bugged me about The DaVinci Code. The risk is the liquid, right? Liquids freeze. They just needed to stick that thing in a freezer overnight, and crack it in the morning, no code required. Maybe they would have needed a special freezer, depending on the freezing point of the vinegar/acid, but that's hardly a big deal.

That so many supposedly intelligent characters, as well as none of the caretakers at any point since we developed means to freeze things, realized how easy it would be to bypass this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous. Though that's hardly the only thing in that book that's poorly concieved.
Alcalientre
06-08-06, 05:57 PM my guess is that as the liquid froze it would ex... wait does only water do this?? ...pand, and break the thing, and the remaining liquid would destroy the paper.

Still, about knock... yeah.
Chaotica Maxima
06-08-06, 07:13 PM Yes, only water expands when frozen, its unique that way. Other liquids become smaller when frozen, so just take out yon ancient archeolical tool and break the thing, and yay, its been opened.

And yes, Knock, the evil 2nd level spell to bypass all locks :P (I'd suggest making the cryptex immune to magical attempt to open it to prevent that. Otherwise yeah, its a complete and utter waste of money to get one.)
Xavon_Wrentaile
06-08-06, 08:02 PM Except that all water based liquids (including vinegar and most low grade acids) will also expand.

Alcalientre is right; freezing the cryptex would make the glass crack, and the still unfrozen part of the liquid (since it doesn't freeze uniformly) would destroy the parchment.
shift244
06-08-06, 09:37 PM Sorry OP. :P

What if you alter the timing of the freeze? Quickening the process or slowing it down? I think the former; if you can create a "shell" with the liquid itself, the solid would serve as another container within the glass? :confused: Or hydrogen freezing?
Esponer
06-08-06, 09:53 PM Yes, only water expands when frozen, its unique that way. Other liquids become smaller when frozen, so just take out yon ancient archeolical tool and break the thing, and yay, its been opened.

Yes, water is unique in that way: along with acetic acid (vinegar), bismuth, silicon, gallium, antimony, and possibility some others I don't know about. :)

I'm not cryptex savvy (is anyone, really?), but it does sound like attempting to freeze it should expand the vineger and break the glass. This would rely on the glass being extremely fragile, and the paper would also need to be specially made so that it would dissolve so quickly. Oddly, Wikipedia says that freezing the cryptex would work, but we should also bear in mind that's an article probably quite likely to be written by interested/intelligent laypeople who may have missed a thing or two.

But just use ultrasound. Far as I know, that should ruin the whole idea in short order.
Thorak
06-08-06, 10:28 PM Sorry OP. :P

What if you alter the timing of the freeze? Quickening the process or slowing it down? I think the former; if you can create a "shell" with the liquid itself, the solid would serve as another container within the glass? :confused: Or hydrogen freezing?
Things freeze from the outside in, when in an enclosed container. Go stick a tray of ice cubes in the freezer and check on them every few minutes; the middle's the bit that freezes last. By the time it cracks the glass, the outside edge is already frozen solid.
Whisper_Swiftblade
06-08-06, 10:38 PM Things freeze from the outside in, when in an enclosed container. Go stick a tray of ice cubes in the freezer and check on them every few minutes; the middle's the bit that freezes last. By the time it cracks the glass, the outside edge is already frozen solid.

indeed, also liquid nitrogen will freeze it in seconds (or less), which hopefuly would not also destroy the stuff inside

also from devinchi code everything, that was once alive or part of something alive brakes down over time, this certanly includes paper, so what kind of condition would the thing be in after that long
Esponer
06-08-06, 10:51 PM Things freeze from the outside in, when in an enclosed container. Go stick a tray of ice cubes in the freezer and check on them every few minutes; the middle's the bit that freezes last. By the time it cracks the glass, the outside edge is already frozen solid.
I'd really like to actually test this out. However, assuming that the outer container of the cryptex was pretty solid, the outside solidifying vinegar would push up against it and be pushed back, which would provide a pressure against the inner glass, surely? I'm not sure if I've quite got the image in my head right, but I can't see how increasing the volume of any part of the vinegar would fail to create a pressure against the inner glass.
Xavon_Wrentaile
06-08-06, 11:02 PM Be that as it may, anyone who has ever had a can of pop 'explode' in a just too cold fridge can testified that water based liquids freezing in tight containers will rupture the container and at least partially leak.
Thorak
06-08-06, 11:59 PM also from devinchi code everything, that was once alive or part of something alive brakes down over time, this certanly includes paper, so what kind of condition would the thing be in after that long
They actually explain this in the book, but not the movie; the grandmaster knew the key to the cryptex, and every few grandmasters they would replace the paper, or change it if they had moved the Magdalene.

Doesn't stop it from being a generally poor book, though.
For instance, the Priory has supposedly existed for centuries by being willing to kill to keep the secret of the Grail family hidden. And the let Langdon, a high-profile lecturer in a related field, just walk away with a promise? I don't think so. They'd either have killed him, or at least kept him around until they decided they could trust him.

And the malarkey about how the Grand Master and his 3 seneschals were the only ones who knew how to figure it out? Guess not. Considering Sophie's whole bloody family also knows, and there's quite a few of them.

Aaargh. Okay, I'm done. I own a copy of the book, but I bought it because I'm actually interested in this stuff; I also have Holy Blood, Holy Grail and several other books on the subject of the Magdalene. But I hate the hype that Brown's gotten; it wasn't that good a book, and that's why it didn't make that good a movie. And I'm surprised there's any controversy at all, since Brown didn't claim anything that Baigent and Leigh didn't claim back in 1982.
Whisper_Swiftblade
06-09-06, 01:49 AM They actually explain this in the book, but not the movie; the grandmaster knew the key to the cryptex, and every few grandmasters they would replace the paper, or change it if they had moved the Magdalene.

Doesn't stop it from being a generally poor book, though.
For instance, the Priory has supposedly existed for centuries by being willing to kill to keep the secret of the Grail family hidden. And the let Langdon, a high-profile lecturer in a related field, just walk away with a promise? I don't think so. They'd either have killed him, or at least kept him around until they decided they could trust him.

And the malarkey about how the Grand Master and his 3 seneschals were the only ones who knew how to figure it out? Guess not. Considering Sophie's whole bloody family also knows, and there's quite a few of them.

Aaargh. Okay, I'm done. I own a copy of the book, but I bought it because I'm actually interested in this stuff; I also have Holy Blood, Holy Grail and several other books on the subject of the Magdalene. But I hate the hype that Brown's gotten; it wasn't that good a book, and that's why it didn't make that good a movie. And I'm surprised there's any controversy at all, since Brown didn't claim anything that Baigent and Leigh didn't claim back in 1982.

I agree compleatly.
Berwick
06-09-06, 02:14 AM It only took 7 hours for the post to be completely hijacked!

Awesome! :w00t:

I cast "Knock", and laugh at whoever spent 50,000 gold on something defeatable by a common second level spell.

Please note the following:

Please note, the following quote is from the PHB, which is licensed, and owned by WOTC, and I am not attempting in any way shape of form to damage their business. "...opens stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors...secret doors,...locked or trick-opening boxes or chests..."

Now, I would say that this little device is definately a "trick-opening box" for comparison purposes. However, upon a carefull and strick reading of the text, there is no mention of this spell allowing the bypassing of traps. The purpose of this device is not a fancy lock, but a trapped mobile container. If, however, it is found that Knock does disable traps...my group will never need another rogue past level 3! :dancin:

As far as the liquid freezy thing goes, I do have to agree with you all. Vinegar does freeze, apparently at 28 degrees F (found here (http://www.apple-cider-vinegar-benefits.com/properties-of-vinegar.html#fpv)), or -2 degrees C for our metric using friends.

According to Frostburn, that is in the Cold category, which equates to 1d6 non-lethal damage/hour with failed Fort save. Which also happens to be the minimum damage for a cone of cold spell (instantaneous though) would do at 9th level (which is the minimum level that Wizards get it).

This is the point where my stubborn nature would continue and argue about the differances between an instantaneous magical effect, and wether or not it would actually cool the vinegar to actually freeze it; however, it seems more simple to say, you are right, and we will just switch it out for alchemist's fire...of which I know of no known real world equivalent to base a possible freezing point off of, though I am hoping it is low enough that the glass would shatter first. At which point, things would heat up real fast.

Also, I would very much appreciate if we could curtail the discussion on the failures or virtues of the novel writtin, from which this idea came. Frankly, I do not care to discuss it, as I would rather get your opinion on something that I am trying to enhance my home game with.

I am asking for your help on smoothing out the mechanics and fluff of an item...nothing more, nothing less. Also, it would be awesome if we could avoid the thread being locked due to novel discussions, which actually is against the CoC (http://boards1.wizards.com/community_coc.php) (also pointed out here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=124488)).

Also, please keep in mind that I run a Faerun game, so things like liquid nitrogen and ultrasounds are generally not available. I don't even know of a single creature that gets full on ultrasound as an ability (though if you do, please let me know).

I am really happy though that so much info was provided about the vinegar thing. You guys are awesome!

Berwick

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Berwick 06-08-06, 04:41 PM	Hmm, please check out the following, and let me know if: 1) I did my math right... 2) This isn't fundamentally broken... The Cryptex On a formed pillow of carmine silk, lies a cylindrical device made of burnished copper and what looks to be cherry wood. The craftsmanship is exquisite. There seems to be five copper disks containing glyphs of some sort, with cherry wood spacers, capped on either end with tooled copper end caps. The whole device is perhaps 7.5” inches long, with a diameter of approximately 3.5”, and seems to weigh close to two pounds. There are markers on one face of the end caps that seem to indicate a line where glyphs from the five different wheels seem to line up. The wheels rotate independently, and they can be aligned with the markers in some sort of combination. The Cryptex is a mobile vault, small enough to keep in a satchel or saddlebags. They are most often used to send secure messages, often having the correct sequence sent separately in encrypted form, often as a riddle. The device has no opening, and because of the end caps, the interior is not only hidden from the viewer’s eye, but inaccessible with tools. There are minute cracks, but only large enough for liquid to pass through. A very astute individual (read epic level rogue) may notice that in spinning the copper disks, there seems to be 5 different places where they catch slightly. This reduces the number of possible combinations from 7,893,600 to 120. The individual only gets one attempt to open the cryptex. Messages are normally stored inside the cryptex, on papyrus, wrapped around a vial of specially prepared acid. The acid will eat the papyrus, but will not affect the materials of the cryptex, which are also treated with a special sealant that protects it. If the wrong combination is entered, and the cryptex is pulled apart, a mechanism on the inside will break the vial, and destroy the message. Even if the cryptex is nested, they are constructed in such a way as to break the vial if the outer cryptex is not opened properly. Obviously, the Cryptex is designed to be opened easily by someone who knows the appropriate combination, but neigh impossible for someone who is attempting to bypass the cryptex. Cost: 50450; CR: 3 CR Modifiers: Base 0 Search DC (45) +2 Can not fail a search check +1 Total +3 Cost Modifiers: Base 1000 Trigger, Touch (attached) -100 Search DC (45) +15000 Total 15900 Extra Costs: Never Miss@ +1000 Complex Search Check* +1250 One Failure = Very bad* +1500 @= ad hoc added to explain lack of ability to disable device * = Taken from the SRD link below, referance the section on disable device checks. (ad hoc) Total Cost for trap: (Modified Cost x CR) x Extra Costs = Total Cost of Trap (15900 * 3)+2750= 50450 Search DC: The individual must succeed at a complex search skill check. They must succeed five times to get the correct sequence, and there are false answers built into the cryptex. DC 20 (false) +200(0) = 0 DC 25 (false) +200(5) = 1000 DC 30 (false) +200(10) = 2000 DC 35 (false) +200(15) = 3000 DC 40 (false) +200(20) = 4000 DC 45 (True) +200(25) = 5000 Total Cost = 15000 Complex Skill Checks can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/complexSkillChecks.htm) EDIT: Fixed some clerical errors
Thorak 06-08-06, 05:41 PM	I cast "Knock", and laugh at whoever spent 50,000 gold on something defeatable by a common second level spell. Not to mention, the cryptex is just one of many things that really bugged me about The DaVinci Code. The risk is the liquid, right? Liquids freeze. They just needed to stick that thing in a freezer overnight, and crack it in the morning, no code required. Maybe they would have needed a special freezer, depending on the freezing point of the vinegar/acid, but that's hardly a big deal. That so many supposedly intelligent characters, as well as none of the caretakers at any point since we developed means to freeze things, realized how easy it would be to bypass this is mind-bogglingly ridiculous. Though that's hardly the only thing in that book that's poorly concieved.
Alcalientre 06-08-06, 05:57 PM	my guess is that as the liquid froze it would ex... wait does only water do this?? ...pand, and break the thing, and the remaining liquid would destroy the paper. Still, about knock... yeah.
Chaotica Maxima 06-08-06, 07:13 PM	Yes, only water expands when frozen, its unique that way. Other liquids become smaller when frozen, so just take out yon ancient archeolical tool and break the thing, and yay, its been opened. And yes, Knock, the evil 2nd level spell to bypass all locks :P (I'd suggest making the cryptex immune to magical attempt to open it to prevent that. Otherwise yeah, its a complete and utter waste of money to get one.)
Xavon_Wrentaile 06-08-06, 08:02 PM	Except that all water based liquids (including vinegar and most low grade acids) will also expand. Alcalientre is right; freezing the cryptex would make the glass crack, and the still unfrozen part of the liquid (since it doesn't freeze uniformly) would destroy the parchment.
shift244 06-08-06, 09:37 PM	Sorry OP. :P What if you alter the timing of the freeze? Quickening the process or slowing it down? I think the former; if you can create a "shell" with the liquid itself, the solid would serve as another container within the glass? :confused: Or hydrogen freezing?
Esponer 06-08-06, 09:53 PM	Yes, only water expands when frozen, its unique that way. Other liquids become smaller when frozen, so just take out yon ancient archeolical tool and break the thing, and yay, its been opened. Yes, water is unique in that way: along with acetic acid (vinegar), bismuth, silicon, gallium, antimony, and possibility some others I don't know about. :) I'm not cryptex savvy (is anyone, really?), but it does sound like attempting to freeze it should expand the vineger and break the glass. This would rely on the glass being extremely fragile, and the paper would also need to be specially made so that it would dissolve so quickly. Oddly, Wikipedia says that freezing the cryptex would work, but we should also bear in mind that's an article probably quite likely to be written by interested/intelligent laypeople who may have missed a thing or two. But just use ultrasound. Far as I know, that should ruin the whole idea in short order.
Thorak 06-08-06, 10:28 PM	Sorry OP. :P What if you alter the timing of the freeze? Quickening the process or slowing it down? I think the former; if you can create a "shell" with the liquid itself, the solid would serve as another container within the glass? :confused: Or hydrogen freezing? Things freeze from the outside in, when in an enclosed container. Go stick a tray of ice cubes in the freezer and check on them every few minutes; the middle's the bit that freezes last. By the time it cracks the glass, the outside edge is already frozen solid.
Whisper_Swiftblade 06-08-06, 10:38 PM	Things freeze from the outside in, when in an enclosed container. Go stick a tray of ice cubes in the freezer and check on them every few minutes; the middle's the bit that freezes last. By the time it cracks the glass, the outside edge is already frozen solid. indeed, also liquid nitrogen will freeze it in seconds (or less), which hopefuly would not also destroy the stuff inside also from devinchi code everything, that was once alive or part of something alive brakes down over time, this certanly includes paper, so what kind of condition would the thing be in after that long
Esponer 06-08-06, 10:51 PM	Things freeze from the outside in, when in an enclosed container. Go stick a tray of ice cubes in the freezer and check on them every few minutes; the middle's the bit that freezes last. By the time it cracks the glass, the outside edge is already frozen solid. I'd really like to actually test this out. However, assuming that the outer container of the cryptex was pretty solid, the outside solidifying vinegar would push up against it and be pushed back, which would provide a pressure against the inner glass, surely? I'm not sure if I've quite got the image in my head right, but I can't see how increasing the volume of any part of the vinegar would fail to create a pressure against the inner glass.
Xavon_Wrentaile 06-08-06, 11:02 PM	Be that as it may, anyone who has ever had a can of pop 'explode' in a just too cold fridge can testified that water based liquids freezing in tight containers will rupture the container and at least partially leak.
Thorak 06-08-06, 11:59 PM	also from devinchi code everything, that was once alive or part of something alive brakes down over time, this certanly includes paper, so what kind of condition would the thing be in after that long They actually explain this in the book, but not the movie; the grandmaster knew the key to the cryptex, and every few grandmasters they would replace the paper, or change it if they had moved the Magdalene. Doesn't stop it from being a generally poor book, though. For instance, the Priory has supposedly existed for centuries by being willing to kill to keep the secret of the Grail family hidden. And the let Langdon, a high-profile lecturer in a related field, just walk away with a promise? I don't think so. They'd either have killed him, or at least kept him around until they decided they could trust him. And the malarkey about how the Grand Master and his 3 seneschals were the only ones who knew how to figure it out? Guess not. Considering Sophie's whole bloody family also knows, and there's quite a few of them. Aaargh. Okay, I'm done. I own a copy of the book, but I bought it because I'm actually interested in this stuff; I also have Holy Blood, Holy Grail and several other books on the subject of the Magdalene. But I hate the hype that Brown's gotten; it wasn't that good a book, and that's why it didn't make that good a movie. And I'm surprised there's any controversy at all, since Brown didn't claim anything that Baigent and Leigh didn't claim back in 1982.
Whisper_Swiftblade 06-09-06, 01:49 AM	They actually explain this in the book, but not the movie; the grandmaster knew the key to the cryptex, and every few grandmasters they would replace the paper, or change it if they had moved the Magdalene. Doesn't stop it from being a generally poor book, though. For instance, the Priory has supposedly existed for centuries by being willing to kill to keep the secret of the Grail family hidden. And the let Langdon, a high-profile lecturer in a related field, just walk away with a promise? I don't think so. They'd either have killed him, or at least kept him around until they decided they could trust him. And the malarkey about how the Grand Master and his 3 seneschals were the only ones who knew how to figure it out? Guess not. Considering Sophie's whole bloody family also knows, and there's quite a few of them. Aaargh. Okay, I'm done. I own a copy of the book, but I bought it because I'm actually interested in this stuff; I also have Holy Blood, Holy Grail and several other books on the subject of the Magdalene. But I hate the hype that Brown's gotten; it wasn't that good a book, and that's why it didn't make that good a movie. And I'm surprised there's any controversy at all, since Brown didn't claim anything that Baigent and Leigh didn't claim back in 1982. I agree compleatly.
Berwick 06-09-06, 02:14 AM	It only took 7 hours for the post to be completely hijacked! Awesome! :w00t: I cast "Knock", and laugh at whoever spent 50,000 gold on something defeatable by a common second level spell. Please note the following: Please note, the following quote is from the PHB, which is licensed, and owned by WOTC, and I am not attempting in any way shape of form to damage their business. "...opens stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors...secret doors,...locked or trick-opening boxes or chests..." Now, I would say that this little device is definately a "trick-opening box" for comparison purposes. However, upon a carefull and strick reading of the text, there is no mention of this spell allowing the bypassing of traps. The purpose of this device is not a fancy lock, but a trapped mobile container. If, however, it is found that Knock does disable traps...my group will never need another rogue past level 3! :dancin: As far as the liquid freezy thing goes, I do have to agree with you all. Vinegar does freeze, apparently at 28 degrees F (found here (http://www.apple-cider-vinegar-benefits.com/properties-of-vinegar.html#fpv)), or -2 degrees C for our metric using friends. According to Frostburn, that is in the Cold category, which equates to 1d6 non-lethal damage/hour with failed Fort save. Which also happens to be the minimum damage for a cone of cold spell (instantaneous though) would do at 9th level (which is the minimum level that Wizards get it). This is the point where my stubborn nature would continue and argue about the differances between an instantaneous magical effect, and wether or not it would actually cool the vinegar to actually freeze it; however, it seems more simple to say, you are right, and we will just switch it out for alchemist's fire...of which I know of no known real world equivalent to base a possible freezing point off of, though I am hoping it is low enough that the glass would shatter first. At which point, things would heat up real fast. Also, I would very much appreciate if we could curtail the discussion on the failures or virtues of the novel writtin, from which this idea came. Frankly, I do not care to discuss it, as I would rather get your opinion on something that I am trying to enhance my home game with. I am asking for your help on smoothing out the mechanics and fluff of an item...nothing more, nothing less. Also, it would be awesome if we could avoid the thread being locked due to novel discussions, which actually is against the CoC (http://boards1.wizards.com/community_coc.php) (also pointed out here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=124488)). Also, please keep in mind that I run a Faerun game, so things like liquid nitrogen and ultrasounds are generally not available. I don't even know of a single creature that gets full on ultrasound as an ability (though if you do, please let me know). I am really happy though that so much info was provided about the vinegar thing. You guys are awesome! Berwick