A differant way of Skyship propulsion [Archive] - Wizards Community

A differant way of Skyship propulsion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Iver Gearsham
07-16-05, 05:56 AM I was thinking on how to get an airship moving going through ideas like propellers, Big scoop like oars that fold down on the forward stroke and expand on the back stroke, Boiling water from a Decanter of Endless water for a steam engine or jet propulsion.

Then it hit me as I was reading the main spell required to make a Halruaan skyship Suspension! 4th lvl spell It lasts days per level lets you lift 1,000 lbs. per level and best of all you can make the object rise or fall as a move action 45 ft.! So if you can use both standard and move actions in the round you can ascend or descend 90 ft. in one round.

Here is the freaky part: If you had wings on the ship that allow you too change the angle of attack as you rise or fall you can push the ship forward due to air pressure generated by the motion of the ship rising or falling under or on top of the wing if angled correctly.

If Moving up or down 90 ft. generated 1 forward foot of movement for every 3 feet risen or fallen your traveling at 30 ft. a round! I think those numbers are worst case maybe one of you out there has a better idea of the correct ratio?

Too turn you dip one wing and raise the other wing in sink with the tail rudder.

I see the whole ship looking quite bird like in the necessary layout of control surfaces.
With that in mind making the ship look like a fantastic one say a Phoenix or hawk, Bird of Paradise or a Moon Moth any Butterflies would be cool don’t you think?
tarkin
07-16-05, 11:25 AM Angle of Attack creates a VERY slow lateral accelaration. We are talking about less then 1/4 effiencientcy.

90ft per round up/down should translate into about a 20ft, or a speed of about 10.

Not woth it in my opinion.
Jaid
07-16-05, 11:37 AM have you considered using an eversmoking bottle instead of a decanter of endless water for a power source? after all, turning the water into steam will require heat, which requires either fuel or a magical heat source (even more money and weight), takes time, and you have to store the water while it is being heated (adds weight).

on the other hand, the eversmoking bottle just produces smoke. you could very easily connect it to a steam-engine type device and power it.

not sure just how much the bottle would be able to do, but it should be decent at least.
Vanigo
07-16-05, 04:29 PM I don't think the eversmoking bottle produces much pressure. I mean, it has to produce some or the smoke wouldn't spread out so quickly, but I doubt it's much more than you get from a garden hose.
Radijs
07-16-05, 06:03 PM Enslaved air elementals anyone?
Airsucker
07-16-05, 08:55 PM Just a strange idea, what if young dragons hired out to pull ships to start their hoards?
mrurbanitesmiley
07-16-05, 09:06 PM You don't need to boil the water from the Decanter of Endless water. Just turn it onto Geyser, make it face backwards, make 10 copies, and shazam, you're going blazing fast. I don't know the exact physics, but it's what, several hundred gallons of water jetting backwards? I think it would produce significant forward momentum. It might drench anything below it, but does that really matter? Just fly it over the desert. Everyone will love you.
Iver Gearsham
07-17-05, 05:41 AM From TarkinAngle of Attack creates a VERY slow lateral accelaration. We are talking about less then 1/4 effiencientcy.

90ft per round up/down should translate into about a 20ft, or a speed of about 10.

Not woth it in my opinion.

What do you base your numbers on? real world aircraft? A formula for deteriming such things? An informed opinion?
I would realy like to know the source of them.
And if it accounts for wing surface area.

Any way you could use the Wings as sails by turning them vertical for winds behind the airship tilt them up or down to catch side winds.
If there were no wind the UpsenDownsen Engine may be slow but at least I don't have to row. :P
The whole point was to make a viable airship without permanent Enchantments for every aspect of it.
An airship that can be made without the backing of a nation or any other Finger in my pie organizations would be nice for a change. ;)

[/QUOTE]Enslaved air elementals anyone?
I am not into slavery but it is a classic none the less.

You don't need to boil the water from the Decanter of Endless water. Just turn it onto Geyser, make it face backwards, make 10 copies, and shazam, you're going blazing fast. I don't know the exact physics, but it's what, several hundred gallons of water jetting backwards? I think it would produce significant forward momentum. It might drench anything below it, but does that really matter? Just fly it over the desert. Everyone will love you. [QUOTE]
Ten Decanters of Endless Water is 90,000 gp! Absoloutly name the Ship the SwampRat! ;)

I am not sure the Ever Smoking Bottle would work but you certainly would leave a huge trail. sky writing anyone?
Ace the Dead
07-17-05, 11:50 AM Why not just put sails on the ship? It won't be as windy over some parts of the land, but gust of wind is what level (if you need a quick boost)?

I'd rather row then ride in the Upsendowsen engine because I get seasick on actual boats, let alone ones that are bouncing up and down on 90 foot swells ever 12 seconds.

Is Fly a third level spell? Why not make a fifth level spell that drastically increases the wieght limit of fly and requires a ship (of X size) as the focus? You could call it Iver's Airship Flight or something like that. Or if you prefer, make the focus a giant bird-shaped ship and call it Iver's Giant Bird.

_______

I'm sorry, but Ivor was the name of my int 6 orc fighter/barbarian that rolled a natural one on a fortitude save to avoid becoming a were-rat that ended up TPKing everyone. And the thought of spells named after him just crackes me up, even if there not really. :)
Jaid
07-17-05, 10:43 PM if you don't allow the gas from an eversmoking bottle to fill it's maximum area, then it will have plenty of power behind it.

consider:

Eversmoking Bottle: This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.
The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.
Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, pyrotechnics; Price 5,400 gp;Weight 1 lb.

ok then, so that's a 100' radius. it doesn't say how high the cloud is, so i'll calculate twice... once assuming a 10' high cloud, the other assuming half a 100' radius sphere sliced in half (which i consider unlikely, but whatever).

so then:

10' high

V = pi * radius^2 * height = pi * 100^2 * 10 = 314,160 cu ft (approximately).

100' radius half sphere

V = 4/3 * pi * radius^3 = 4/3 * pi * 100^3 = 4,188,790 cu ft (approximately)

so then, consider if you had that kind of volume in an area of, say, 10 cu ft (the volume of your "steam engine).

that's a lot of pressure.

of course, that all assumes i have done my calculations correctly... which i have this horrible tendency to not do =P
Vanigo
07-17-05, 10:47 PM Sure, if smoke was a completely different gas than air, but it's not. The eversmoking bottle probably spits out very thick smoke, which thins as it spreads.
Iver Gearsham
07-18-05, 12:48 AM I'd rather row then ride in the Upsendowsen engine because I get seasick on actual boats, let alone ones that are bouncing up and down on 90 foot swells every 12 seconds.

You don't have to go up 90 ft. then down 90 ft. you go up for a mile or two then decend for a mile or two. in long momentum building sweeps.

Is Fly a third level spell? Why not make a fifth level spell that drastically increases the wieght limit of fly and requires a ship (of X size) as the focus? You could call it Iver's Airship Flight or something like that. Or if you prefer, make the focus a giant bird-shaped ship and call it Iver's Giant Bird.
Sounds good but I don't think my Char's name is going to transfer too any other game :weep: :D it would be neat though ;)

I'm sorry, but Ivor was the name of my int 6 orc fighter/barbarian that rolled a natural one on a fortitude save to avoid becoming a were-rat that ended up TPKing everyone. And the thought of spells named after him just crackes me up, even if there not really.
Today 02:41 AM

:cool: :D
GhostStepper
07-26-05, 05:22 PM put some fire elemental pheromones on a water elemental...introduce the fire elemental...viola, steamed elemental. dont forget to the heal them. Positive energy powered elemental steam.LOL
mvincent
07-26-05, 06:08 PM Another method might be to turn your ship into a construct (using permanent animate object), and then outfit it with Wings of Flying.
Teslonomikon
07-26-05, 06:11 PM Could use iron steam-powered turbines, they've been in the real world for over a hundred years.

Also known as the Tesla Disc Turbine, "Tesla placed a stack of 9-inch (23 cm) plane metal disks side by side with a space of about a sixteenth of an inch (1.5 mm) between them. By directing high speed fluid between the disks, and out through holes in their center, the moving fluid would adhere to the disks just enough to cause them to spin. Simple, effective and efficient. What's more, if you powered the disks in the opposite direction and put in fluid the other way, it made a great pump."

I am working on a Tesla-turbine powered locomotive and air ship for my campaign.

Tesla Turbine Diagram (http://my.execpc.com/~teba/images/tesla2.gif)!
pres_man
07-26-05, 06:49 PM Ever-smoking bottles and hot air ballons?
Nerdloremaster
07-26-05, 07:04 PM Or you could use the A&Eg (yeah, its 3.0, but there's nothing better yet) Lightning Turbine. Get a mage with a wand of lightning bolt, or a cloudgathering orb, (SBG) and you have a permanent forward speed of 90.

You could also use shocker lizards in cages for the turbine's power. Or build a bronze serpent thing (with the electric bite) with it's mouth bound to the turbine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iver Gearsham 07-16-05, 05:56 AM	I was thinking on how to get an airship moving going through ideas like propellers, Big scoop like oars that fold down on the forward stroke and expand on the back stroke, Boiling water from a Decanter of Endless water for a steam engine or jet propulsion. Then it hit me as I was reading the main spell required to make a Halruaan skyship Suspension! 4th lvl spell It lasts days per level lets you lift 1,000 lbs. per level and best of all you can make the object rise or fall as a move action 45 ft.! So if you can use both standard and move actions in the round you can ascend or descend 90 ft. in one round. Here is the freaky part: If you had wings on the ship that allow you too change the angle of attack as you rise or fall you can push the ship forward due to air pressure generated by the motion of the ship rising or falling under or on top of the wing if angled correctly. If Moving up or down 90 ft. generated 1 forward foot of movement for every 3 feet risen or fallen your traveling at 30 ft. a round! I think those numbers are worst case maybe one of you out there has a better idea of the correct ratio? Too turn you dip one wing and raise the other wing in sink with the tail rudder. I see the whole ship looking quite bird like in the necessary layout of control surfaces. With that in mind making the ship look like a fantastic one say a Phoenix or hawk, Bird of Paradise or a Moon Moth any Butterflies would be cool don’t you think?
tarkin 07-16-05, 11:25 AM	Angle of Attack creates a VERY slow lateral accelaration. We are talking about less then 1/4 effiencientcy. 90ft per round up/down should translate into about a 20ft, or a speed of about 10. Not woth it in my opinion.
Jaid 07-16-05, 11:37 AM	have you considered using an eversmoking bottle instead of a decanter of endless water for a power source? after all, turning the water into steam will require heat, which requires either fuel or a magical heat source (even more money and weight), takes time, and you have to store the water while it is being heated (adds weight). on the other hand, the eversmoking bottle just produces smoke. you could very easily connect it to a steam-engine type device and power it. not sure just how much the bottle would be able to do, but it should be decent at least.
Vanigo 07-16-05, 04:29 PM	I don't think the eversmoking bottle produces much pressure. I mean, it has to produce some or the smoke wouldn't spread out so quickly, but I doubt it's much more than you get from a garden hose.
Radijs 07-16-05, 06:03 PM	Enslaved air elementals anyone?
Airsucker 07-16-05, 08:55 PM	Just a strange idea, what if young dragons hired out to pull ships to start their hoards?
mrurbanitesmiley 07-16-05, 09:06 PM	You don't need to boil the water from the Decanter of Endless water. Just turn it onto Geyser, make it face backwards, make 10 copies, and shazam, you're going blazing fast. I don't know the exact physics, but it's what, several hundred gallons of water jetting backwards? I think it would produce significant forward momentum. It might drench anything below it, but does that really matter? Just fly it over the desert. Everyone will love you.
Iver Gearsham 07-17-05, 05:41 AM	From TarkinAngle of Attack creates a VERY slow lateral accelaration. We are talking about less then 1/4 effiencientcy. 90ft per round up/down should translate into about a 20ft, or a speed of about 10. Not woth it in my opinion. What do you base your numbers on? real world aircraft? A formula for deteriming such things? An informed opinion? I would realy like to know the source of them. And if it accounts for wing surface area. Any way you could use the Wings as sails by turning them vertical for winds behind the airship tilt them up or down to catch side winds. If there were no wind the UpsenDownsen Engine may be slow but at least I don't have to row. :P The whole point was to make a viable airship without permanent Enchantments for every aspect of it. An airship that can be made without the backing of a nation or any other Finger in my pie organizations would be nice for a change. ;) [/QUOTE]Enslaved air elementals anyone? I am not into slavery but it is a classic none the less. You don't need to boil the water from the Decanter of Endless water. Just turn it onto Geyser, make it face backwards, make 10 copies, and shazam, you're going blazing fast. I don't know the exact physics, but it's what, several hundred gallons of water jetting backwards? I think it would produce significant forward momentum. It might drench anything below it, but does that really matter? Just fly it over the desert. Everyone will love you. [QUOTE] Ten Decanters of Endless Water is 90,000 gp! Absoloutly name the Ship the SwampRat! ;) I am not sure the Ever Smoking Bottle would work but you certainly would leave a huge trail. sky writing anyone?
Ace the Dead 07-17-05, 11:50 AM	Why not just put sails on the ship? It won't be as windy over some parts of the land, but gust of wind is what level (if you need a quick boost)? I'd rather row then ride in the Upsendowsen engine because I get seasick on actual boats, let alone ones that are bouncing up and down on 90 foot swells ever 12 seconds. Is Fly a third level spell? Why not make a fifth level spell that drastically increases the wieght limit of fly and requires a ship (of X size) as the focus? You could call it Iver's Airship Flight or something like that. Or if you prefer, make the focus a giant bird-shaped ship and call it Iver's Giant Bird. _______ I'm sorry, but Ivor was the name of my int 6 orc fighter/barbarian that rolled a natural one on a fortitude save to avoid becoming a were-rat that ended up TPKing everyone. And the thought of spells named after him just crackes me up, even if there not really. :)
Jaid 07-17-05, 10:43 PM	if you don't allow the gas from an eversmoking bottle to fill it's maximum area, then it will have plenty of power behind it. consider: Eversmoking Bottle: This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered. The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round. Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, pyrotechnics; Price 5,400 gp;Weight 1 lb. ok then, so that's a 100' radius. it doesn't say how high the cloud is, so i'll calculate twice... once assuming a 10' high cloud, the other assuming half a 100' radius sphere sliced in half (which i consider unlikely, but whatever). so then: 10' high V = pi * radius^2 * height = pi * 100^2 * 10 = 314,160 cu ft (approximately). 100' radius half sphere V = 4/3 * pi * radius^3 = 4/3 * pi * 100^3 = 4,188,790 cu ft (approximately) so then, consider if you had that kind of volume in an area of, say, 10 cu ft (the volume of your "steam engine). that's a lot of pressure. of course, that all assumes i have done my calculations correctly... which i have this horrible tendency to not do =P
Vanigo 07-17-05, 10:47 PM	Sure, if smoke was a completely different gas than air, but it's not. The eversmoking bottle probably spits out very thick smoke, which thins as it spreads.
Iver Gearsham 07-18-05, 12:48 AM	I'd rather row then ride in the Upsendowsen engine because I get seasick on actual boats, let alone ones that are bouncing up and down on 90 foot swells every 12 seconds. You don't have to go up 90 ft. then down 90 ft. you go up for a mile or two then decend for a mile or two. in long momentum building sweeps. Is Fly a third level spell? Why not make a fifth level spell that drastically increases the wieght limit of fly and requires a ship (of X size) as the focus? You could call it Iver's Airship Flight or something like that. Or if you prefer, make the focus a giant bird-shaped ship and call it Iver's Giant Bird. Sounds good but I don't think my Char's name is going to transfer too any other game :weep: :D it would be neat though ;) I'm sorry, but Ivor was the name of my int 6 orc fighter/barbarian that rolled a natural one on a fortitude save to avoid becoming a were-rat that ended up TPKing everyone. And the thought of spells named after him just crackes me up, even if there not really. Today 02:41 AM :cool: :D
GhostStepper 07-26-05, 05:22 PM	put some fire elemental pheromones on a water elemental...introduce the fire elemental...viola, steamed elemental. dont forget to the heal them. Positive energy powered elemental steam.LOL
mvincent 07-26-05, 06:08 PM	Another method might be to turn your ship into a construct (using permanent animate object), and then outfit it with Wings of Flying.
Teslonomikon 07-26-05, 06:11 PM	Could use iron steam-powered turbines, they've been in the real world for over a hundred years. Also known as the Tesla Disc Turbine, "Tesla placed a stack of 9-inch (23 cm) plane metal disks side by side with a space of about a sixteenth of an inch (1.5 mm) between them. By directing high speed fluid between the disks, and out through holes in their center, the moving fluid would adhere to the disks just enough to cause them to spin. Simple, effective and efficient. What's more, if you powered the disks in the opposite direction and put in fluid the other way, it made a great pump." I am working on a Tesla-turbine powered locomotive and air ship for my campaign. Tesla Turbine Diagram (http://my.execpc.com/~teba/images/tesla2.gif)!
pres_man 07-26-05, 06:49 PM	Ever-smoking bottles and hot air ballons?
Nerdloremaster 07-26-05, 07:04 PM	Or you could use the A&Eg (yeah, its 3.0, but there's nothing better yet) Lightning Turbine. Get a mage with a wand of lightning bolt, or a cloudgathering orb, (SBG) and you have a permanent forward speed of 90. You could also use shocker lizards in cages for the turbine's power. Or build a bronze serpent thing (with the electric bite) with it's mouth bound to the turbine.