A duel goes awry [Archive] - Wizards Community

A duel goes awry [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Astaldo
02-12-06, 04:52 AM Couldn't find where else to post these questions.

We have a duel: pc human warrior on horse vs npc drow warrior (some prestige) on sword spider or some spider like that.

Human warrior starts charging. Drow had higher initiative, and decided to choose "ready vs approach" and set a special ability that allowed his spider to jump, make a special attack with his legs, _do not get AoO from charging human warrior_, land behind him, let human rider pass a bit farther and than drow activate a Dancing sword on him, while human continued his charge and haven't made anything that round.

DM didn't choose to explain what was the name of that special ability. How it must work? Was it possible to attack human without getting charge or AoO in answer? Does that ability exists?

How it should have worked?
RavenDrake
02-12-06, 08:36 AM It sounds a bit off to me.

IF the creature he's riding is a Sword Spider(Monsters of Faerun Splatbook pg 80 in 3.0), then it does have a special Jump attack. The Jump attack would not provoke an AoO, however the ability in itself would not prevent an opponent's attack.

Additionally, assuming the Rider made his "Guide with the Knees" and "Fight with Warmount" ride checks, then he and the mount can both act in battle on the same turn. Since he was working with a readied action, he could make the spider perfrom it's jump attack(since the skill use for that is a free action), then activate the dancing weapon with his readied action... theoretically. Presuming he readied the action to activate the weapon when it was most beneficial...

In general, however, It sounds like the DM was playing it a bit loose... more like he delayed the characters turn till somewhere in the middle of yours, then took a full rounds worth of actions... which is not cool.

However, there may be some combination of Feats and/or class features that allowed this to occur(you didn't mention what PrC it was...) so I'd have to say talk to your DM and ask him to go back over this with you and explain why it happened like it did. Just to see.
Astaldo
02-12-06, 10:08 AM Yes, it was Sword Spider and "Impalement" , Extraordinary ability was used.

No additional feats or abilites was used. Paladin rider has 20+ Ride check and using his special mount. Of course he is guiding with knees, and has Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Ride-By attack feats beside others.

The problem is I asked DM to explain what's happening before did posted here.. He refused to do it, though we had the time to find out what's happening. Said he won't like to go into technical details. I'm trying to find out whether he is right or just disallowing my character to make his honest attempt to hit the enemy.

So is it possible to move like that Sword Spider and rider moved and receive no attacks whatsoever, though they was in clear view all the time? Spider's movement somehow ended behind paladin's.
White_Wizard
02-12-06, 10:28 AM Yes, but keep in mind that the human was already perfoming an action. When you want to interrupt an action while you are performing it, you must declare it. Otherwise the DM will assume that you continue with the action you are performing. So, if the human rider wanted to make an AoO should have declared it. And there is to take some kind of roll to see if you succesfully interrupt the current action to perform another one.
The drow, in this case, acted very wisely (very drow-ishly) and took advantage from superior mobility. When a player meets such odds, he should learn from it and invent some sort of countermove and/or learn to do something similar. ;)
Astaldo
02-12-06, 10:46 AM We are playing on forums and we do have a contact through instant messenger so yes there was AoO request.

Please, I'm asking for clear answer and description step-by-step, if it's possible, on how things should have worked. Who does what in which order?
tarkin
02-12-06, 11:33 AM As per official WoTC rules:
You can not stop a charge from attacking.
Charge counts as a single attack already set in motion. The same rules apply to it as for an arrow that has been shot.

Just as you are not allowed to say: "I ready an action to step to the left when an arrow shot at me gets within 1 ft"

You also can not prevent a charge from attempting to hit you.

Once someone declares that they are charing you, then ANYTIME you come within hitting distance of them for ANY REASON, they automatically get to attack you.

Nothing you can do can physically stop that attack unless the feat or ability expressely says "when moving in this way, people charging you do not get an attack".

Ruling otherwise is a House Rule, and a pretty Powerfull one that is easy to abuse.

Your feats stops the AoO, it does not stop the charge.

Also, the human can stop movement at any time, they are not required to continue in a straight line. Any but the strictest of DM's will allow them to convert their charge into a move and attack if they have not already exceeded their speed, or a Double move if possible

What most likely should have happened is this:

1) Drow readies.

2) Human charges.

3) Drow waits till human has moved at least 35 ft.

4) Drow lands behind human, but inside his reach.

5) Human takes his charge attack, getting full charge bonus. (No such thing as facing in d20). This attack applies instantly when the Drow is in range, so it happens before the drow attacks (unless the Drow move itself counts as a charge, then it is simultaneous)

6) Drow get's his attack.
Astaldo
02-12-06, 02:28 PM Thank you very much, Tarkin. DM has read this and will take his decision, how to handle best the situation, so I guess.
kraegor
02-12-06, 06:15 PM Hmm, but isnt there some rule stating that readied actions.. ahh yes.. from the SRD..

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

and that falls right in line so you can use the special ability of:

Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

I think that the only time you can inturrupt a charge is with a readied action. Because it counts as an "inturrupt". No sane character would charge you if you readied your spear BEFORE he charged, thats why its a ready action, so when he starts charging, you lower your spear, and he can't stop himself. If it worked the way you are saying it, everyone in D&D is stupid enough to impale themselves on spears cuz they see the person doing it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Astaldo 02-12-06, 04:52 AM	Couldn't find where else to post these questions. We have a duel: pc human warrior on horse vs npc drow warrior (some prestige) on sword spider or some spider like that. Human warrior starts charging. Drow had higher initiative, and decided to choose "ready vs approach" and set a special ability that allowed his spider to jump, make a special attack with his legs, _do not get AoO from charging human warrior_, land behind him, let human rider pass a bit farther and than drow activate a Dancing sword on him, while human continued his charge and haven't made anything that round. DM didn't choose to explain what was the name of that special ability. How it must work? Was it possible to attack human without getting charge or AoO in answer? Does that ability exists? How it should have worked?
RavenDrake 02-12-06, 08:36 AM	It sounds a bit off to me. IF the creature he's riding is a Sword Spider(Monsters of Faerun Splatbook pg 80 in 3.0), then it does have a special Jump attack. The Jump attack would not provoke an AoO, however the ability in itself would not prevent an opponent's attack. Additionally, assuming the Rider made his "Guide with the Knees" and "Fight with Warmount" ride checks, then he and the mount can both act in battle on the same turn. Since he was working with a readied action, he could make the spider perfrom it's jump attack(since the skill use for that is a free action), then activate the dancing weapon with his readied action... theoretically. Presuming he readied the action to activate the weapon when it was most beneficial... In general, however, It sounds like the DM was playing it a bit loose... more like he delayed the characters turn till somewhere in the middle of yours, then took a full rounds worth of actions... which is not cool. However, there may be some combination of Feats and/or class features that allowed this to occur(you didn't mention what PrC it was...) so I'd have to say talk to your DM and ask him to go back over this with you and explain why it happened like it did. Just to see.
Astaldo 02-12-06, 10:08 AM	Yes, it was Sword Spider and "Impalement" , Extraordinary ability was used. No additional feats or abilites was used. Paladin rider has 20+ Ride check and using his special mount. Of course he is guiding with knees, and has Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Ride-By attack feats beside others. The problem is I asked DM to explain what's happening before did posted here.. He refused to do it, though we had the time to find out what's happening. Said he won't like to go into technical details. I'm trying to find out whether he is right or just disallowing my character to make his honest attempt to hit the enemy. So is it possible to move like that Sword Spider and rider moved and receive no attacks whatsoever, though they was in clear view all the time? Spider's movement somehow ended behind paladin's.
White_Wizard 02-12-06, 10:28 AM	Yes, but keep in mind that the human was already perfoming an action. When you want to interrupt an action while you are performing it, you must declare it. Otherwise the DM will assume that you continue with the action you are performing. So, if the human rider wanted to make an AoO should have declared it. And there is to take some kind of roll to see if you succesfully interrupt the current action to perform another one. The drow, in this case, acted very wisely (very drow-ishly) and took advantage from superior mobility. When a player meets such odds, he should learn from it and invent some sort of countermove and/or learn to do something similar. ;)
Astaldo 02-12-06, 10:46 AM	We are playing on forums and we do have a contact through instant messenger so yes there was AoO request. Please, I'm asking for clear answer and description step-by-step, if it's possible, on how things should have worked. Who does what in which order?
tarkin 02-12-06, 11:33 AM	As per official WoTC rules: You can not stop a charge from attacking. Charge counts as a single attack already set in motion. The same rules apply to it as for an arrow that has been shot. Just as you are not allowed to say: "I ready an action to step to the left when an arrow shot at me gets within 1 ft" You also can not prevent a charge from attempting to hit you. Once someone declares that they are charing you, then ANYTIME you come within hitting distance of them for ANY REASON, they automatically get to attack you. Nothing you can do can physically stop that attack unless the feat or ability expressely says "when moving in this way, people charging you do not get an attack". Ruling otherwise is a House Rule, and a pretty Powerfull one that is easy to abuse. Your feats stops the AoO, it does not stop the charge. Also, the human can stop movement at any time, they are not required to continue in a straight line. Any but the strictest of DM's will allow them to convert their charge into a move and attack if they have not already exceeded their speed, or a Double move if possible What most likely should have happened is this: 1) Drow readies. 2) Human charges. 3) Drow waits till human has moved at least 35 ft. 4) Drow lands behind human, but inside his reach. 5) Human takes his charge attack, getting full charge bonus. (No such thing as facing in d20). This attack applies instantly when the Drow is in range, so it happens before the drow attacks (unless the Drow move itself counts as a charge, then it is simultaneous) 6) Drow get's his attack.
Astaldo 02-12-06, 02:28 PM	Thank you very much, Tarkin. DM has read this and will take his decision, how to handle best the situation, so I guess.
kraegor 02-12-06, 06:15 PM	Hmm, but isnt there some rule stating that readied actions.. ahh yes.. from the SRD.. Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action. and that falls right in line so you can use the special ability of: Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character. I think that the only time you can inturrupt a charge is with a readied action. Because it counts as an "inturrupt". No sane character would charge you if you readied your spear BEFORE he charged, thats why its a ready action, so when he starts charging, you lower your spear, and he can't stop himself. If it worked the way you are saying it, everyone in D&D is stupid enough to impale themselves on spears cuz they see the person doing it.