A Flat-footed Boxer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Flat-footed Boxer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bewildered DM
03-03-05, 06:57 PM I'm having a hard time grasping my meager intellect around the pre-1st round of combat. Specifically, why would a combatant be Flat-Footed at the start of a "normal" round of combat and lose his DEX bonus to AC. I can understand surprise and all, but what about these examples:

Two characters are forced to fight in a ring. The bell rings and the fight begins. According to the text in PHB, the boxer who wins initiative can take a standard action, followed by a standard action for the boxer who lost initiative. Since the boxers start on opposite sides of the ring and a move action is not an option, no attack can be made, and the first true round of combat then begins (move and attack). Is this a correct example?

Two characters are forced to fight in a ring. The bell rings and the fight begins. The boxer with a loaded crossbow wins initiative and gets his standard action. He fires at the unarmed boxer. The boxer doesn't get to try and dodge (ie use his DEX bonus to AC)? He clearly sees what is about to happen- and of course he knows he is about to fight a boxer with a loaded crossbow.

Enlighten me.
Inigo Carmine
03-03-05, 07:15 PM In the case of 2 boxers in the ring, there is no suprise round. Both combatants are aware of eachother. A suprise round occurs in situations like the following:

Boxer A is alone in the boxing ring, practicing some rapid punches, jabs, etc, or whatever boxers do. As far as he knows, he's alone in this place. Boxer B, unknown to Boxer A, sneaks into the ring behind Boxer A's back. Boxer B, while Boxer A still doesn't know he's there, throws a Haymaker punch at Boxer A's kidneys (this is a suprise round). Boxer A never saw the punch coming (and lacks uncanny dodge), therefore is flat footed against this attack.

After this, initiative is rolled. If Boxer B wins, he continues to pummel Boxer A for a bit more before he can react; he gains another full round of actions before A gets to go. If Boxer A wins, he reacts almost immediately to Boxer B's display of unsportsman-like behavior, and takes his first full round of actions before Boxer B gets to.
strenoth
03-03-05, 07:21 PM think of it more like this...

PRe-bell: Round 1 starts, both roll iniative.. both use Full Defense until the bell rings. :)

'normal' combat: To hostile warriors are eyeing each other, but swords are still sheathed. One of them makes a move for his sword: Roll initative! winner get's his sword drawn as part of a charge before the other does.
d_nychus
03-03-05, 07:29 PM I'm having a hard time grasping my meager intellect around the pre-1st round of combat. Specifically, why would a combatant be Flat-Footed at the start of a "normal" round of combat and lose his DEX bonus to AC. I can understand surprise and all, but what about these examples:

Two characters are forced to fight in a ring. The bell rings and the fight begins. According to the text in PHB, the boxer who wins initiative can take a standard action, followed by a standard action for the boxer who lost initiative. Since the boxers start on opposite sides of the ring and a move action is not an option, no attack can be made, and the first true round of combat then begins (move and attack). Is this a correct example?

Nope. The 'standard action only' bit is a part of the surprise round if one side is not aware of the other when combat occurs. As both opponents are clearly aware of the other, there is no surprise round. The one who wins initative gets a standard and move action, as normal.

Two characters are forced to fight in a ring. The bell rings and the fight begins. The boxer with a loaded crossbow wins initiative and gets his standard action. He fires at the unarmed boxer. The boxer doesn't get to try and dodge (ie use his DEX bonus to AC)? He clearly sees what is about to happen- and of course he knows he is about to fight a boxer with a loaded crossbow.

That's right, save the crossbow man also gets a move action as well.

Enlighten me.

Haven't you ever seen a suckerpunch at the start of a boxing match?
Bewildered DM
03-03-05, 08:27 PM What does Skip Williams mean by this in his article "All About Sneak Attacks" from ths site:

"Anyone who is surprised is flat-footed during the ensuing surprise round. Surprised or not, anyone also is flat-footed during the first round of any combat from the time the combat begins until the creature takes its first turn in the initiative cycle."

PHB pg. 133:

"1. Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he is no longer flat-footed." (takes its first turn in the initiative cycle)

And the paragraphs under Initiative, pgs. 136-137 discuss this "phenomenon" before the section on Surprise.

These two ideas (everyone Flat-footed and Surprise) appear to be two separate things.
Salla
03-03-05, 10:10 PM That's correct; in this instance, there is no surprise round. However, both boxers are flat-footed until their initiative numbers come up.

As far as rationalizing this, think of it this way. You can only be so quick; and one boxer winds up being just a bit 'quicker' than the other. For examples:
19 vs 17: "Man, I thought I was fast, but this guy's insane! I've gotta watch it."
19 vs 4: "Cripes ... focus, man, focus, pay attention!"

(In a true gentlemen's duel, I'd guess that it would be considered 'gentlemanly' for both contestants to spend the first round in Full Defense, so neither is flat-footed once the punches actually start.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bewildered DM 03-03-05, 06:57 PM	I'm having a hard time grasping my meager intellect around the pre-1st round of combat. Specifically, why would a combatant be Flat-Footed at the start of a "normal" round of combat and lose his DEX bonus to AC. I can understand surprise and all, but what about these examples: Two characters are forced to fight in a ring. The bell rings and the fight begins. According to the text in PHB, the boxer who wins initiative can take a standard action, followed by a standard action for the boxer who lost initiative. Since the boxers start on opposite sides of the ring and a move action is not an option, no attack can be made, and the first true round of combat then begins (move and attack). Is this a correct example? Two characters are forced to fight in a ring. The bell rings and the fight begins. The boxer with a loaded crossbow wins initiative and gets his standard action. He fires at the unarmed boxer. The boxer doesn't get to try and dodge (ie use his DEX bonus to AC)? He clearly sees what is about to happen- and of course he knows he is about to fight a boxer with a loaded crossbow. Enlighten me.
Inigo Carmine 03-03-05, 07:15 PM	In the case of 2 boxers in the ring, there is no suprise round. Both combatants are aware of eachother. A suprise round occurs in situations like the following: Boxer A is alone in the boxing ring, practicing some rapid punches, jabs, etc, or whatever boxers do. As far as he knows, he's alone in this place. Boxer B, unknown to Boxer A, sneaks into the ring behind Boxer A's back. Boxer B, while Boxer A still doesn't know he's there, throws a Haymaker punch at Boxer A's kidneys (this is a suprise round). Boxer A never saw the punch coming (and lacks uncanny dodge), therefore is flat footed against this attack. After this, initiative is rolled. If Boxer B wins, he continues to pummel Boxer A for a bit more before he can react; he gains another full round of actions before A gets to go. If Boxer A wins, he reacts almost immediately to Boxer B's display of unsportsman-like behavior, and takes his first full round of actions before Boxer B gets to.
strenoth 03-03-05, 07:21 PM	think of it more like this... PRe-bell: Round 1 starts, both roll iniative.. both use Full Defense until the bell rings. :) 'normal' combat: To hostile warriors are eyeing each other, but swords are still sheathed. One of them makes a move for his sword: Roll initative! winner get's his sword drawn as part of a charge before the other does.
d_nychus 03-03-05, 07:29 PM	I'm having a hard time grasping my meager intellect around the pre-1st round of combat. Specifically, why would a combatant be Flat-Footed at the start of a "normal" round of combat and lose his DEX bonus to AC. I can understand surprise and all, but what about these examples: Two characters are forced to fight in a ring. The bell rings and the fight begins. According to the text in PHB, the boxer who wins initiative can take a standard action, followed by a standard action for the boxer who lost initiative. Since the boxers start on opposite sides of the ring and a move action is not an option, no attack can be made, and the first true round of combat then begins (move and attack). Is this a correct example? Nope. The 'standard action only' bit is a part of the surprise round if one side is not aware of the other when combat occurs. As both opponents are clearly aware of the other, there is no surprise round. The one who wins initative gets a standard and move action, as normal. Two characters are forced to fight in a ring. The bell rings and the fight begins. The boxer with a loaded crossbow wins initiative and gets his standard action. He fires at the unarmed boxer. The boxer doesn't get to try and dodge (ie use his DEX bonus to AC)? He clearly sees what is about to happen- and of course he knows he is about to fight a boxer with a loaded crossbow. That's right, save the crossbow man also gets a move action as well. Enlighten me. Haven't you ever seen a suckerpunch at the start of a boxing match?
Bewildered DM 03-03-05, 08:27 PM	What does Skip Williams mean by this in his article "All About Sneak Attacks" from ths site: "Anyone who is surprised is flat-footed during the ensuing surprise round. Surprised or not, anyone also is flat-footed during the first round of any combat from the time the combat begins until the creature takes its first turn in the initiative cycle." PHB pg. 133: "1. Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he is no longer flat-footed." (takes its first turn in the initiative cycle) And the paragraphs under Initiative, pgs. 136-137 discuss this "phenomenon" before the section on Surprise. These two ideas (everyone Flat-footed and Surprise) appear to be two separate things.
Salla 03-03-05, 10:10 PM	That's correct; in this instance, there is no surprise round. However, both boxers are flat-footed until their initiative numbers come up. As far as rationalizing this, think of it this way. You can only be so quick; and one boxer winds up being just a bit 'quicker' than the other. For examples: 19 vs 17: "Man, I thought I was fast, but this guy's insane! I've gotta watch it." 19 vs 4: "Cripes ... focus, man, focus, pay attention!" (In a true gentlemen's duel, I'd guess that it would be considered 'gentlemanly' for both contestants to spend the first round in Full Defense, so neither is flat-footed once the punches actually start.)