A fool and his limb… [Archive] - Wizards Community

A fool and his limb… [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SilvercatMoonpaw
03-08-06, 02:16 PM Where are the rules for severing limbs? I know some creatures such as the hydra and the kracken have entries on how to sever something, but with spells that reference the regrowing of limbs, I keep thinking there is a part of the rules somewhere that I overlooked.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-08-06, 02:55 PM Sundering limbs requires an attack roll at the target's full AC that does not provoke an AoO. The HP of the limb is that of the creature+10.

In case you all weren't paying attention, that means you kill the creature first, then can do whatever you want to its corpse, including hacking off limbs. Another (less sarcastic) house rule would be to allow chopping off limbs instead of instant death from Coup de Grace.
BladeMage_1
03-08-06, 04:59 PM Sundering limbs requires an attack roll at the target's full AC that does not provoke an AoO. The HP of the limb is that of the creature+10.

In case you all weren't paying attention, that means you kill the creature first, then can do whatever you want to its corpse, including hacking off limbs. Another (less sarcastic) house rule would be to allow chopping off limbs instead of instant death from Coup de Grace.

Where did you find this?
ClementWillowbreaker
03-08-06, 05:03 PM The first is a joke. The description is mechanically identical to fighting a creature normally, because that is essentially what trying to kill something is- hack it to bits. Having to explain it kinda ruins the humor. The second is a popular house rule, and more balanced response when someone asks, "what is the penalty for a called shot to the eye?". Both come up on these boards fairly often, or at least they were 6 months ago when I was last active.
draconic_swine
03-08-06, 09:50 PM That pretty much sums up most limb severing threads. Either A) it isn't possible, or B) the hitpoints for a limb is equal to the total hitpoints of the creature. There's a pretty sound reasoning rules-wise behind this, but I can't think of it right now.
Draegun Fury
03-09-06, 01:15 PM I don't like those houserules (the joke aside) at all.

Why can a first level commoner with a vorpal sword sever a head with a critical hit, but a 20th level fighter first has to tie the commoner up or knock him out in order to sever a finger?

If we think about this logicaly PC's should receive their first +6 sword (or in other words, a Vorpal Sword) at around level 12 (+1/2 levels for a grand total of +10 at 20th, you can scale faster or slower, I prefer much slower but anyways...), now this says to me that a level 12 character should be able to aquire a feat at arround 12th level(perhaps BAB 9 averages to 12th level) that allows them to sever various limbs.

Now, the rules also give us a method of killing things outright, (Death from massive damage),

Massive Damage
If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.

So to say that anyone part of a character's body possesses FULL Hit Points seems a bit odd.

Now if we were talking about a rule to sever heads, I would make a feat:

Vorpal Strike
Prerep: BAB +9
Benefit: Whenever the character scores a critical hit
and deal fifty points or more damage to their target,
the target must succeed at a Fort Save DC 15 or be
beheaded.

However if you want to just cut off arms and legs, then it becomes trickier, I would suggest perhaps the following.

Brutal Strike
(Is this already the name of a feat? I can't remember.)
Prereq: BAB +9
Benefit: Whenever the character scores a critical hit
he can designate a particular limb (other than the
head), if he deals more than 25 points of damage,
the target must succeed at a Fort Save DC 15 or
lose the limb.

If you use Brutal Strike then Vorpal Strike would become:

Vorpal Strike
Prerep: BAB +12, Brutal Strike.
Benefit: Whenever the character scores a critical hit
and deal fifty points or more damage to their target,
the target must succeed at a Fort Save DC 15 or be
beheaded.

Just a suggestion I don't think is overly-powered, however it may need a bit of tweaking.

Cheers.
SilvercatMoonpaw
03-09-06, 01:33 PM A feat. That would retain the current rules, but allow a few individuals to have the skill to cut off limbs. I don't think we need a "Vorpal Strike" feat. In addition, the Brutal Strike feat should have some more limitations. It should have a percentile role, or you'd need to target a limb specifically. I say this because not all strikes, even ones that do 25+ damage, are going to be near limbs, and more likely arms than legs. Furthermore, there should be a restriction to what limbs you cut off so that a 9th level fighter can't just cut a leg off every one of his enemies, thus redering them almost helpless.

Let's try this:
Brutal Strike
If you wish to sever a leg, you must role percentile dice. A 75 or above is a success.
supernerd8916
03-09-06, 01:39 PM Why can a first level commoner with a vorpal sword sever a head with a critical hit, but a 20th level fighter first has to tie the commoner up or knock him out in order to sever a finger?

Wow. you got some rich commoners in you campain. And further, there is normally a 1 in 20 chance of a crit, so between the two i think the fighter is gonna deal enough subdual to knock the commoner out before the commoner can even swing. Hell, lets say he deals REAl damage.

and why whould you have to get a feat to sever a limb? If i pick up a sword and swung at your leg, more likely than not your new name is Stumpy. I would suggest this:

Total HP divided by total number of limbs (including head/s) multiplied by a size modifier:
Fine: x1/16, Diminutive: x1/8, Tiny: x1/4, Small: x1/2, Medium: x1, Large: x2, Huge: x4, Gigantic: x8, Colossal: x16. If he weighs less or more than a normal creature of his type, weight determines size modifiers.

you are reading this right, someone with multiple limbs has weaker limbs.

modifiers: -4 to atacker
Keenath
03-09-06, 02:03 PM I've considered this question myself, primarily because I was running a Star Wars game, and lightsabers have a habit of dropping limbs.

What I came up with is, I think, worth sharing.

The first issue is that losing a limb is a horrible wound, and not one anyone can survive for long. In the days before modern anesthesia, even the controlled removal of a limb by a surgeon was only a fifty-fifty chance of survival.

The second issue is that it's a terrible thing to take a PC's limb; until he has access to high level spells like Regenerate, losing a limb is equivalent to character death -- it means losing any ability to adventure effectively.

So, taking those into account, my rules for limb severing: Don't.

Or, more verbosely: Losing a PC limb is a story event, which happens only with player permission, probably with the intent of replacing the lost limb through grafting or some similar process.

Loss of an NPC's limb is also a story event, either as flavor text when a target is dropped to negative HP (thus the loss of the limb caused unconsciousness and bleeding out), or because you want the NPC to be unable to adventure, and perhaps to show up, maimed, later.

In any case, don't leave it up to random die rolls (unless it's just random selection of how the target was injured when dropped). In 2nd edition there was the Sword of Sharpness, which was like a vorpal sword that severs arms and legs, but I just wouldn't go there. Leave it in the realm of the non-rules story event.
mvincent
03-09-06, 03:03 PM Why can a first level commoner with a vorpal sword sever a headBecause he has access to powerful Snicker-Snackery.
ShinAkuma2
03-09-06, 10:36 PM The second issue is that it's a terrible thing to take a PC's limb; until he has access to high level spells like Regenerate, losing a limb is equivalent to character death -- it means losing any ability to adventure effectively.

Actually, the DMG has varient rules for lost/injured limbs, and they aren't that bad.
Feor
03-10-06, 08:42 AM I'd probably just let them make a sunder attempt against the limb. Regular Creature's AC, all regular sunder rules (AoOs, retributive sunder attempts, etc) And if they hit, they do enough to render the arm useless, a crit (or just natural 20) severs it outright. If they only rendered it useless, a susequent successful attempt, regardless of crits, would sever the limb outright. I'd also probably make any character with a +1 or greater armor bonus (but not natural armor) immune to the effects.
Keenath
03-10-06, 09:38 AM Actually, the DMG has varient rules for lost/injured limbs, and they aren't that bad.
Are you talking about the sidebar on page 27 that discusses taking a -2 on any d20 roll that involves the injured limb? Because if you are, that isn't really about lost limbs, and would be extremely forgiving and unrealistic for that purpose. That sidebar is talking about non-life-threatening injuries, like Inigo Montoya getting stabbed in the shoulder.

If there's a different area you're talking about, please provide a page reference.
OravennasBrother
03-10-06, 04:11 PM Where are the rules for severing limbs?
That would be 2nd edition book "Combat and Tactics" pages 101 to 115
SilvercatMoonpaw
03-10-06, 05:14 PM I've considered this question myself, primarily because I was running a Star Wars game, and lightsabers have a habit of dropping limbs.

What I came up with is, I think, worth sharing.

The first issue is that losing a limb is a horrible wound, and not one anyone can survive for long. In the days before modern anesthesia, even the controlled removal of a limb by a surgeon was only a fifty-fifty chance of survival.

The second issue is that it's a terrible thing to take a PC's limb; until he has access to high level spells like Regenerate, losing a limb is equivalent to character death -- it means losing any ability to adventure effectively.

So, taking those into account, my rules for limb severing: Don't.

Or, more verbosely: Losing a PC limb is a story event, which happens only with player permission, probably with the intent of replacing the lost limb through grafting or some similar process.

Loss of an NPC's limb is also a story event, either as flavor text when a target is dropped to negative HP (thus the loss of the limb caused unconsciousness and bleeding out), or because you want the NPC to be unable to adventure, and perhaps to show up, maimed, later.

In any case, don't leave it up to random die rolls (unless it's just random selection of how the target was injured when dropped). In 2nd edition there was the Sword of Sharpness, which was like a vorpal sword that severs arms and legs, but I just wouldn't go there. Leave it in the realm of the non-rules story event.
I agree. I originally asked the question because there are spells and whatnot that mention it, NOT because I thought it needed to be in there. If we really think about it, most of the wounds characters receive should be worse than they are because there would be bleeding and infection. If you cut your way out of a stomach that doesn't kill the creature outright. I guess the game is a bit more fun if you don't have to worry about limbs falling off. Of course, you could go the Black Night route ("It's no more than a flesh wound.") :D
supernerd8916
03-11-06, 11:01 AM well, your rules are better than mine, so i must concede on this matter (you have not heard the last of me yet, do gooder! i shall return!) im gonna give my next commoner a vorpal sword, cause because apparently there are vorpal swords laying all over the place (which wouldnt surprise me, actually, considering they are completely useless)
Nerdloremaster
03-11-06, 11:47 AM The only place I know has it is the "Hero's Guide" from the Star Wars RPG. I'd just change the "wound damage" part to "critical hit."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SilvercatMoonpaw 03-08-06, 02:16 PM	Where are the rules for severing limbs? I know some creatures such as the hydra and the kracken have entries on how to sever something, but with spells that reference the regrowing of limbs, I keep thinking there is a part of the rules somewhere that I overlooked.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-08-06, 02:55 PM	Sundering limbs requires an attack roll at the target's full AC that does not provoke an AoO. The HP of the limb is that of the creature+10. In case you all weren't paying attention, that means you kill the creature first, then can do whatever you want to its corpse, including hacking off limbs. Another (less sarcastic) house rule would be to allow chopping off limbs instead of instant death from Coup de Grace.
BladeMage_1 03-08-06, 04:59 PM	Sundering limbs requires an attack roll at the target's full AC that does not provoke an AoO. The HP of the limb is that of the creature+10. In case you all weren't paying attention, that means you kill the creature first, then can do whatever you want to its corpse, including hacking off limbs. Another (less sarcastic) house rule would be to allow chopping off limbs instead of instant death from Coup de Grace. Where did you find this?
ClementWillowbreaker 03-08-06, 05:03 PM	The first is a joke. The description is mechanically identical to fighting a creature normally, because that is essentially what trying to kill something is- hack it to bits. Having to explain it kinda ruins the humor. The second is a popular house rule, and more balanced response when someone asks, "what is the penalty for a called shot to the eye?". Both come up on these boards fairly often, or at least they were 6 months ago when I was last active.
draconic_swine 03-08-06, 09:50 PM	That pretty much sums up most limb severing threads. Either A) it isn't possible, or B) the hitpoints for a limb is equal to the total hitpoints of the creature. There's a pretty sound reasoning rules-wise behind this, but I can't think of it right now.
Draegun Fury 03-09-06, 01:15 PM	I don't like those houserules (the joke aside) at all. Why can a first level commoner with a vorpal sword sever a head with a critical hit, but a 20th level fighter first has to tie the commoner up or knock him out in order to sever a finger? If we think about this logicaly PC's should receive their first +6 sword (or in other words, a Vorpal Sword) at around level 12 (+1/2 levels for a grand total of +10 at 20th, you can scale faster or slower, I prefer much slower but anyways...), now this says to me that a level 12 character should be able to aquire a feat at arround 12th level(perhaps BAB 9 averages to 12th level) that allows them to sever various limbs. Now, the rules also give us a method of killing things outright, (Death from massive damage), Massive Damage If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply. So to say that anyone part of a character's body possesses FULL Hit Points seems a bit odd. Now if we were talking about a rule to sever heads, I would make a feat: Vorpal Strike Prerep: BAB +9 Benefit: Whenever the character scores a critical hit and deal fifty points or more damage to their target, the target must succeed at a Fort Save DC 15 or be beheaded. However if you want to just cut off arms and legs, then it becomes trickier, I would suggest perhaps the following. Brutal Strike (Is this already the name of a feat? I can't remember.) Prereq: BAB +9 Benefit: Whenever the character scores a critical hit he can designate a particular limb (other than the head), if he deals more than 25 points of damage, the target must succeed at a Fort Save DC 15 or lose the limb. If you use Brutal Strike then Vorpal Strike would become: Vorpal Strike Prerep: BAB +12, Brutal Strike. Benefit: Whenever the character scores a critical hit and deal fifty points or more damage to their target, the target must succeed at a Fort Save DC 15 or be beheaded. Just a suggestion I don't think is overly-powered, however it may need a bit of tweaking. Cheers.
SilvercatMoonpaw 03-09-06, 01:33 PM	A feat. That would retain the current rules, but allow a few individuals to have the skill to cut off limbs. I don't think we need a "Vorpal Strike" feat. In addition, the Brutal Strike feat should have some more limitations. It should have a percentile role, or you'd need to target a limb specifically. I say this because not all strikes, even ones that do 25+ damage, are going to be near limbs, and more likely arms than legs. Furthermore, there should be a restriction to what limbs you cut off so that a 9th level fighter can't just cut a leg off every one of his enemies, thus redering them almost helpless. Let's try this: Brutal Strike If you wish to sever a leg, you must role percentile dice. A 75 or above is a success.
supernerd8916 03-09-06, 01:39 PM	Why can a first level commoner with a vorpal sword sever a head with a critical hit, but a 20th level fighter first has to tie the commoner up or knock him out in order to sever a finger? Wow. you got some rich commoners in you campain. And further, there is normally a 1 in 20 chance of a crit, so between the two i think the fighter is gonna deal enough subdual to knock the commoner out before the commoner can even swing. Hell, lets say he deals REAl damage. and why whould you have to get a feat to sever a limb? If i pick up a sword and swung at your leg, more likely than not your new name is Stumpy. I would suggest this: Total HP divided by total number of limbs (including head/s) multiplied by a size modifier: Fine: x1/16, Diminutive: x1/8, Tiny: x1/4, Small: x1/2, Medium: x1, Large: x2, Huge: x4, Gigantic: x8, Colossal: x16. If he weighs less or more than a normal creature of his type, weight determines size modifiers. you are reading this right, someone with multiple limbs has weaker limbs. modifiers: -4 to atacker
Keenath 03-09-06, 02:03 PM	I've considered this question myself, primarily because I was running a Star Wars game, and lightsabers have a habit of dropping limbs. What I came up with is, I think, worth sharing. The first issue is that losing a limb is a horrible wound, and not one anyone can survive for long. In the days before modern anesthesia, even the controlled removal of a limb by a surgeon was only a fifty-fifty chance of survival. The second issue is that it's a terrible thing to take a PC's limb; until he has access to high level spells like Regenerate, losing a limb is equivalent to character death -- it means losing any ability to adventure effectively. So, taking those into account, my rules for limb severing: Don't. Or, more verbosely: Losing a PC limb is a story event, which happens only with player permission, probably with the intent of replacing the lost limb through grafting or some similar process. Loss of an NPC's limb is also a story event, either as flavor text when a target is dropped to negative HP (thus the loss of the limb caused unconsciousness and bleeding out), or because you want the NPC to be unable to adventure, and perhaps to show up, maimed, later. In any case, don't leave it up to random die rolls (unless it's just random selection of how the target was injured when dropped). In 2nd edition there was the Sword of Sharpness, which was like a vorpal sword that severs arms and legs, but I just wouldn't go there. Leave it in the realm of the non-rules story event.
mvincent 03-09-06, 03:03 PM	Why can a first level commoner with a vorpal sword sever a headBecause he has access to powerful Snicker-Snackery.
ShinAkuma2 03-09-06, 10:36 PM	The second issue is that it's a terrible thing to take a PC's limb; until he has access to high level spells like Regenerate, losing a limb is equivalent to character death -- it means losing any ability to adventure effectively. Actually, the DMG has varient rules for lost/injured limbs, and they aren't that bad.
Feor 03-10-06, 08:42 AM	I'd probably just let them make a sunder attempt against the limb. Regular Creature's AC, all regular sunder rules (AoOs, retributive sunder attempts, etc) And if they hit, they do enough to render the arm useless, a crit (or just natural 20) severs it outright. If they only rendered it useless, a susequent successful attempt, regardless of crits, would sever the limb outright. I'd also probably make any character with a +1 or greater armor bonus (but not natural armor) immune to the effects.
Keenath 03-10-06, 09:38 AM	Actually, the DMG has varient rules for lost/injured limbs, and they aren't that bad. Are you talking about the sidebar on page 27 that discusses taking a -2 on any d20 roll that involves the injured limb? Because if you are, that isn't really about lost limbs, and would be extremely forgiving and unrealistic for that purpose. That sidebar is talking about non-life-threatening injuries, like Inigo Montoya getting stabbed in the shoulder. If there's a different area you're talking about, please provide a page reference.
OravennasBrother 03-10-06, 04:11 PM	Where are the rules for severing limbs? That would be 2nd edition book "Combat and Tactics" pages 101 to 115
SilvercatMoonpaw 03-10-06, 05:14 PM	I've considered this question myself, primarily because I was running a Star Wars game, and lightsabers have a habit of dropping limbs. What I came up with is, I think, worth sharing. The first issue is that losing a limb is a horrible wound, and not one anyone can survive for long. In the days before modern anesthesia, even the controlled removal of a limb by a surgeon was only a fifty-fifty chance of survival. The second issue is that it's a terrible thing to take a PC's limb; until he has access to high level spells like Regenerate, losing a limb is equivalent to character death -- it means losing any ability to adventure effectively. So, taking those into account, my rules for limb severing: Don't. Or, more verbosely: Losing a PC limb is a story event, which happens only with player permission, probably with the intent of replacing the lost limb through grafting or some similar process. Loss of an NPC's limb is also a story event, either as flavor text when a target is dropped to negative HP (thus the loss of the limb caused unconsciousness and bleeding out), or because you want the NPC to be unable to adventure, and perhaps to show up, maimed, later. In any case, don't leave it up to random die rolls (unless it's just random selection of how the target was injured when dropped). In 2nd edition there was the Sword of Sharpness, which was like a vorpal sword that severs arms and legs, but I just wouldn't go there. Leave it in the realm of the non-rules story event. I agree. I originally asked the question because there are spells and whatnot that mention it, NOT because I thought it needed to be in there. If we really think about it, most of the wounds characters receive should be worse than they are because there would be bleeding and infection. If you cut your way out of a stomach that doesn't kill the creature outright. I guess the game is a bit more fun if you don't have to worry about limbs falling off. Of course, you could go the Black Night route ("It's no more than a flesh wound.") :D
supernerd8916 03-11-06, 11:01 AM	well, your rules are better than mine, so i must concede on this matter (you have not heard the last of me yet, do gooder! i shall return!) im gonna give my next commoner a vorpal sword, cause because apparently there are vorpal swords laying all over the place (which wouldnt surprise me, actually, considering they are completely useless)
Nerdloremaster 03-11-06, 11:47 AM	The only place I know has it is the "Hero's Guide" from the Star Wars RPG. I'd just change the "wound damage" part to "critical hit."