Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ace the Dead 11-06-05, 12:45 PM	Hi. In an upcoming urban campaign I will be running, the setting is the geographic equivilant of Miami, and I don't think a lot of people would be running around in heavy armor in that heat & humidity. In fact, people would probably want to wear as little clothing as they could while still being decently covered (the standard garment is the toga). I was looking over the books, and denying characters armor really seems to hurt a lot of classes quite a bit. I looked at the rules variant for no armor in Unearthed Arcana, and it immediately struck me as useless (there's no support for multi-classed characters, and I know there are going to be a lot of NPCs; addtionally the bonuses lead to rather absurdly high ACs for high-dex fighters and clerics), so I was wondering if anyone had seen/used/writen any system for an alternative to armor that they liked. Thanks in advance, Ace the Dead.
tiluvias99 11-06-05, 03:07 PM	By the RAW, no classes except the monk (and maybe a couple others in splatbooks) learn how to better defend themselves against other's attacks as they level up. For example, if a 1st level commoner shoots an arrow at a naked 20th level fighter, he pretty much needs the same thing to hit him as he would against a 1st level naked fighter. Actually, an equipped 1st level fighter probably in most cases have a higher AC than a naked 20th level fighter. There really isn't a good reason for this besides game balance, but it means in any low to no magic game the characters are screwed. Here are some reasonable houserules for a low-magic game: 1. everyone gains a bonus to their AC equal to their BAB or three-quarters/half of their BAB 2. same as #1, but bonus is added to dex bonus to AC instead of added to AC 3. same as #1, but ACP applies to AC bonus In a regular game/high magic game, this is another houserule I thought of. Whenever you take a new class, you can choose to lower their BAB to gain a bonus to AC equal to double the AC bonus lost. For example, a 20th level fighter could look like either of these: A: +20/+15/+10/+5 BAB, +0 AC. This fighter would follow the normal progression in the PHB. B: +15/+10/+5 BAB, +10 AC. This fighter would have medium BAB, but an AC bonus of 1/2 his level. C: +10/+5 BAB, +20 AC. This fighter would have low BAB, but an AC bonus equal to his level. D: +5 BAB, +30 AC. This fighter would have miserable BAB, but an AC bonus of 3/2 his level. E: +0 BAB, +40 AC, This fighter would have no BAB, but an AC bonus of double his level. This system would allow for far more flexibility among classes, and seems both balanced and significantly more realistic.
Waterhammer 11-06-05, 03:32 PM	Some of the classes in d20 modern(maybe all;I don't remember)gain AC bonus just from level increases.
Sluagh 11-06-05, 03:37 PM	There really isn't a good reason for this besides game balance, but it means in any low to no magic game the characters are screwed. So, kinda like reality :P I kind of like the idea of keeping things as they are. Without armour, if you don't want to get hit in combat, either have high dexterity (and other Ability mod, depending on class) or manage to avoid combat. With this in mind it would encourage some pretty strong roleplay to avoid the fights... kind of like people really do. Combat would become a last resort, rather than a first effort. Aside from that, if you wanted to, incorporate magic items that raise AC. There's also the idea of dropping the automatic 10 from AC and making it opposed d20 rolls; d20+AC mods vs d20+attack mods. I do believe that's included in Unearthed Arcana.
JadeSpider9643 11-06-05, 03:51 PM	what you need to solve your problem is some magic. If traditional armor is impratical, mabye Bracers of Armor have become popular. Mabye they are so popular that all the mages that make them sell them wholesale. Mabye there is also a popular fad of wearing magically enchanted togas that function like various levels of armor. Mabye the demand for relief while wearing armor has lead to the development of a new alchemical product that cools the body (say...costs 10gp, apply once per day[probably in the morning] to stay cool all day while wearing armor) The alchemical product would make for some interesting gameplay. Unless the players become obscenely rich they probably couldn't afford to just wear their armor all the time, they'd leave it off on a 3 day hike between towns, and put it on just before entering a dungeon or if they manage to foresee an encounter. Mabye the demand had lead to the research/development of a new magical armor property: Internal Cooling - keeps the temperature of the armor and the occupant below 60 degrees, unfortunately cold based attacks cause the cooling to spike, causeing 1d6 extra damage when hit by cold damage. Cost +1000
Rierevin 11-06-05, 04:24 PM	has anyone ever tried that 1/2 your BAB to your AC thing? im going to be running a no magic campain soon and i wondered if it would work out or not, i was just going ot make it so everyone fightes defensivly of combat expertises but even then at higher lvls everyone would hit with 2 or 3 attacks
Nom 11-06-05, 04:29 PM	Yep. The environment will favour high-dex characters wearing enchanted garments. Don't forget that a hot, humid environment won't prevent you wearing long flowing robes, that could be designed to provide the equivalent of padded armour.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-06-05, 04:50 PM	Endure Elements Abjuration Level: Clr 1, Drd 1, Pal 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Sun 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 24 hours Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) A creature protected by endure elements suffers no harm from being in a hot or cold environment. It can exist comfortably in conditions between –50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves). The creature’s equipment is likewise protected. Endure elements doesn’t provide any protection from fire or cold damage, nor does it protect against other environmental hazards such as smoke, lack of air, and so forth. This is D&D. We don't dress lightly. We turn on the AC.
Sluagh 11-06-05, 05:02 PM	This is D&D. We don't dress lightly. We turn on the AC. Booo! :)
Professor Gas 11-06-05, 05:08 PM	US military and football players are required to wear extememly hot gear and perform physically in very hot conditions. Having a campaign in extremely hot places doesn't mean they can't wear armor, it just means they can't wear it all the time, and when they do, they need to keep hydrated. A soldier or a guard on duty would probably be wearing armor. For characters, there are many ways to lower your AC. Twin Sword style, Dodge, Combat expertise and fighting defensively are all great ways to lower your AC. Using cover works very well for ranged attacks, too. I've found that many of the monsters with low-to mid- level challenge ratings have difficulty hitting AC's above 20 anyway. (Well, my dice suck, too.) As for NPC, if their stats are low to average, they won't have huge attack bonuses anyway. I'm doing a similar campaign right now, and most of the gangs they are encountering have very low AC's, sometimes even 10. The sheer number of them provides a challenge to the players. They don't mouth off to the watch (even though they are corrupt) since the watch is so well armed. Limiting weapons and armor can be a great way to challenge players to think more creatively. Sorry this post is so long.
FlameLover 11-06-05, 06:02 PM	The problem with any quick patch up like this is that D&D is "balanced" assuming the warrior types have heavy armour from level 2-3 and mages don't have any at all. Giving essentially "free" AC like this upstets that balance and makes mages harder to hit while making fighters easier until the high levels. If you're wanting to have a Base Defence Bonus from class you'll need to drop armour as AC and make magic items with AC boosting effects harder to attain. For D&D little to no other houserulex i'd go with the variant from Unearthed Arcana but if you like to houserule abit you could do what i'm doing for my CS/RPG and removing the reliance on magic items and equipment in general. By doing this I can give classes a BDB equal to BAB and it works out quite nicley.
ramhammer 11-06-05, 06:41 PM	If everyone doesn't wear armor its sound balanced to me. A toga and a sheild doesn't sound to hot. TWF, TWF defence. All good to me.
Ront Iron-Roar 11-06-05, 06:56 PM	Just skimming through this section, but, has anyone considered the defense bonus ability in the Unearthed Arcana? It's rather balanced and makes plenty of sense. Even at its highest it still can be outclassed by a pimped out piece of armor. I always got tired of the fact that a 20th level character could get hit most of the time by a 1st level goblin warrior when he was unarmored. Couldn't the guy have just used his weapon to knock away each blow? It makes it seem AC is always weather or not you have armor. As if your character stands there and just hopes his armor prevents him from getting hurt. Defense as well shows that someone shows some effort in evading touch attacks. Dexterity-Dodging and weaving. Dodge bonus- Dodging. Armor and natural armor- Part of the AC that counts when the enemy gets through your defense. Shield- Blocking with a shield. Defense Bonus- Parrying and blocks. Combat Expertise- Fancy parrying moves and blocks. In a system using defense bonus it shows someone focused more so in defending himself.
Zephyrus/Sonet 11-06-05, 07:17 PM	Yeah, I like the defense bonus from UA. Overpowered in the early levels, underpowered in later levels. Since I hardly ever get a campaign past 10th lvl I'm fine with it :)
Rierevin 11-06-05, 08:09 PM	i dont get the defense bonus... why doesnt it stack with armor? i mean just because u can knock attacks away doesnt mean your armor wont still be in effect.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-06-05, 09:09 PM	i dont get the defense bonus... why doesnt it stack with armor? Game balance. Same reason the defense bonus exists at all, oddly enough.
mikey_ak 11-06-05, 09:45 PM	I have to dispute your base concept (Florida being too hot for armor). Remember that the Spanish conquestidors fought their way through that area in armor. I couldn't say exactly what type, but artist conception illustrations (in history books, etc.) show them wearing at least a breastplate and helm. Usually paired with silk pantaloons, heh.
Waterhammer 11-06-05, 10:32 PM	I have to dispute your base concept (Florida being too hot for armor). Remember that the Spanish conquestidors fought their way through that area in armor. I couldn't say exactly what type, but artist conception illustrations (in history books, etc.) show them wearing at least a breastplate and helm. Usually paired with silk pantaloons, heh. The armor would be breastplate(actuallly a better term is cuirass)also leather armor in the same style was worn(probably leather for the common soldier,and steel for the uppity-ups) Do'nt be thinking those outfits were comfortable tho...
MistWolf 11-06-05, 10:37 PM	I'll have to look closer at Unearthed, but in d20 Modern, Defense Bonus does stack w/ other armor bonuses. Conquistadors ditched their armor as quickly as they could because of the heat and humidity along with ineffectiveness against the improving tech of weaponry. At the most, they wore a breastplate & helmet and not even those the majority of the time
Ront Iron-Roar 11-07-05, 02:59 AM	Defense bonus in UA is different from d20 moderns. The UA gives you a choice of using the defense bonus instead of armor bonus. You choose either you prefer. It's also different for each class depending on armor profieciencies and certain monsters can get it as well. Defense bonus in D20 Modern is smaller and thus makes it less overpowering. But, High AC is more legal in D20 Modern because of Damage Threshold and all the guns. Take a look in D20 Weapons Locker, nothing drops below a 2d6 in there that is a light weapon.
DigitalMage 11-07-05, 05:07 AM	If you wanted to play strictly by the book, then having no armour could be mitigated somewhat by using the Fight Defensively standard action a lot and gaining the Combat Expertise Feat. E.g. a Level 5 fighter with Combat Expertise could add up to +5 AC at the expense of a -5 to hit, which would cancel out his BAB, putting him on the same footing as a commoner to attack, but much harder to hit.
Ace the Dead 11-07-05, 10:29 AM	My problem with the UA AC bonus is that there is no support for mullti-classed characters. The bonus was some sort of 1/2 your level + constant for the progressions that matter the most. As DM I can say there is going to be a fair number of fighters with a cleric level or two, and roughly half of all NPCs encountered as threats will have at least 2 classes. I like multi-classing, I think its one of the best things in the game. I also considered a system wherein a character got a +1 [probably] dodge bouns to AC for having light armor prof., +2 for having medium or +4 for having heavy, and then tacking on some number derived from bab in some way, but I was looking at how that affected touch AC and flat-footed AC and said, "Well so much for touch spells, and uncanny dodge just got a lot better." These systems always irk my desire to have at least some realism in games b/c its hard to justify why wearing armor greatly hinders your ability to dodge form any point of view than a balance one. Side note: just allowing Endure Elements basicially turns a first level cleric spell into +8 or better armor bonus to AC, which has its own balnce issues. Thanks again, Ace the Dead
Max the Immortal 11-07-05, 02:13 PM	IIRC, a multi-classed character using the UA unarmored AC bonus simply uses his character level and the column for his best-armored class. A Fighter4/Cleric4, a Fighter4/Sorcerer4, and a Fighter1/Wizard7 would all have the AC bonus of an 8th-level Fighter. Silly, yes, but good if you want to play a warrior-mage type. As for the core rules, rich people (especially adventurers and their antagonists) can deal with the heat with low-level magic. There's Endure Elements mentioned above (great pun, btw), and there's mage armor (or bracers if you really want to splurge). This is D&D: The heroes aren't supposed to dress sensibly; they're supposed to look awesome.
Ront Iron-Roar 11-07-05, 03:46 PM	This is D&D: The heroes aren't supposed to dress sensibly; they're supposed to look awesome. You don't mind if I put this onto my signature do you?
LaoKhanWei 11-07-05, 04:43 PM	Look at some old middle eastern armors. You're probably not going to fight in an environment hotter than Arabia. And if you are, then as many have mentioned, there's always magic. I totally agree though, the #1 priority of any good hero is looking good!
Vahenir 11-07-05, 05:47 PM	You don't mind if I put this onto my signature do you? As if you needed an even longer signature? (mini-rant: What is it with people and gigantic sig lines? It's stupid. A few quotes and notations in small print is fine. Taking up more room with your signature than the actual post is ridiculous, unnecessary, and an eyesore. /mini-rant) I'll have to echo the sentiments of a few others and say that a hot environment does not preclude the existance of armour, as evidenced by China, Japan, and the Middle-East. The main problem with armour in such environments is that -extended- wear is exhausting and potentially deadly. The Crusaders, for example, more than once made the mistake of marching across the desert in full array and lost a noteworthy amount of soldiers to exhaustion and dehydration. But armour saves your life. You don't go into battle without it just because it's uncomfortable to wear. And it's certainly not going to kill you in the few hours it takes you to fight before you can have a break to take it off. If you really want to be tedious, simply implant rules for heat exhaustion, which you can hand out in 'grades' -- like minor, intermediate, major and serious. Most people will ever only suffer from minor exhaustion.. but the longer they wear their armour.. the worse it gets - up to and including death by heat exhaustion.
primemover003 11-07-05, 06:05 PM	I'll have to check the actual price or +'s but in Races of Faerun there is the Comfort Special Armor ability that can be added to make heavier armor more comfortable in the heat. I think Endure elements is the base spell to make it.
LaoKhanWei 11-07-05, 06:24 PM	This whole discussion kind of reminds me of Adrianople. The Roman army of around 15,000 had intercepted a Goth army of around 10,000 and took up position at some point around noon. To buy time for their civilians to escape the Goth's began negotiations while the Romans waited in formation ontop of their hill. During this time an impatient division of archers took it upon themselves to engage the Goth's without orders or support and were thus easily forced to retreat, stalling things even further. By the time the Romans began marching towards the Goth infantry line they were exhausted from hours of standing in the heat. In this situation the heavier metal armors would have made both the head and the exhaustion an even worse problem than it already was for the Romans. By the time they reached the Goth infantry the enemy cavalry had arrived from a few miles away and proceeded to rip the Romans appart. The Romans being exhausted and weighed down by heavy equipment were wholy unable to reorganize and mount any kind of effective retreat.
Ront Iron-Roar 11-07-05, 06:25 PM	[QUOTE=Vahenir]As if you needed an even longer signature? (mini-rant: What is it with people and gigantic sig lines? It's stupid. A few quotes and notations in small print is fine. Taking up more room with your signature than the actual post is ridiculous, unnecessary, and an eyesore. /mini-rant) [QUOTE] ~Shrugs~ Free country dude, some people could say their annoyed because they can't read your signature ,but, hey! I chose to do with it as I please. As you did yours. Plus, it dissapears after the first post usually.
Vahenir 11-07-05, 06:54 PM	Free country dude Which is not adequate reason to do stupid things, right? By the same token, I could run screaming through your neighborhood in the middle of the night, keeping everyone awake for hours. And then I could claim 'Free Country?' It's certainly not a free country when it pertains to interacting with other human beings. A little consideration goes a long way. Don't you think? some people could say their annoyed because they can't read your signature My sig line is very easy to read - if you're actually trying to read it. If you're not interested, it's very easy to skip over because it's short, and in small text. Your sig line is wholly intrusive and unnecessarily eye-grabbing, in my opinion. If I were to choose between the two, though, I'd rather have a sig that you need to be trying to read rather than one that's obnoxious. I chose to do with it as I please. As you did yours. Like I said.. it's a matter of consideration for your fellow posters. If you don't have it.. no one can force you to. I'll let the subject go so as not to drag the thread down though.
LaoKhanWei 11-07-05, 07:05 PM	Wouldn't you be arrested for running around in the middle of the night screaming?
Sluagh 11-07-05, 09:11 PM	These systems always irk my desire to have at least some realism in games b/c its hard to justify why wearing armor greatly hinders your ability to dodge form any point of view than a balance one. Armour hinders movement. If you don't get that idea, try just wearing a standard martial arts chest guard, it's tiny, provides almost no protection and even it will hinder your ability to move freely. For an easier to attain example of the concept, you're in New York (according to your user info), head out this winter wearing a snowsuit, try using your full range of motion and normal movement rate. Armour is worse.
Ace the Dead 11-07-05, 10:44 PM	For an easier to attain example of the concept, you're in New York (according to your user info), head out this winter wearing a snowsuit, try using your full range of motion and normal movement rate. Armour is worse. Hahaha, I no longer own a snowsuit for just that reason. I don't think all (read padded) armor is going to be neccissarily as bad as the old, ill-fitting thing I used to wear, but I'm going to have to agree with you. Thanks a lot for the perspective.
Dark Prince Illazar 11-07-05, 10:58 PM	I to have seen the unearthed arcana rules for no armor. I would suggest looking at the starwars RPG all its classes have a class AC bounse and are far more balanced that the unearthed arcana in my thoughts
MistWolf 11-07-05, 11:17 PM	D20 Modern has just a few basic classes: Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated & Charismatic, each with a Defense Bonus progression. Look them over & see if they'll adapt to your campaign. The Strong represents the Fighter; Fast, the Rogue; Smart the Wizard; Dedicated the Cleric; Charismatic, the Bard. Roughly. Look at the charts, you'll see. The biggest challenge is to come up with a simple mechanic that keeps the characters from wearing armor in the first place. Cut down the number of attacks they're allowed- say by 1. A character with 1 attack a round could only attack every other round. Character takes Subdual Damage each round of combat, or each hour of non-combat. Light, d4; medium, d6; heavy, d8 for example. Make it such the players will think seriously before wearing armor but not slow down play if the buck the trend
Waterhammer 11-07-05, 11:17 PM	Never mind.
High Octane 11-07-05, 11:17 PM	This is D&D. We don't dress lightly. We turn on the AC. *Slams Tyler over the head with the Dumb Pun hammer*
WhiteHarness 11-07-05, 11:47 PM	I want to chime in on the subject of wearing armour in hot weather as I feel that I possess special insight into the matter... http://josh.mediumaevum.com/July4parade%20004.jpg http://josh.mediumaevum.com/library%201%20088.jpg These photos were taken at a July 4th event in Kansas, in 100 degree-plus weather. It sucks, I have to drink lots of water, but I can wear my full plate and engage in bursts of fairly strenuous activity off and on for hours if I have to. The parade route we marched was almost two miles long. If you're in good shape, it's not too much trouble, but it is uncomfortable. Just the same, if I lived in a medieval society which required that I go to war in my armour during the hot months, I think I could do it...
Vahenir 11-08-05, 08:13 AM	For an easier to attain example of the concept, you're in New York (according to your user info), head out this winter wearing a snowsuit, try using your full range of motion and normal movement rate. I don't think that's really an accurate comparison. I regularly wear armour and I'd much rather wear my mail hauberk than a snow suit. Actually, I've found that even a plate harness is easier to move in than a snow suit. By way of an anecdote: I was in a small re-enactment group in MA. A guy there, Tommy, was pretty scary in his custom plate harness and gorgeous two-hand sword (this guy must have been rich as hell). He was one of the fastest and most accurate fighters I saw in my years. One winter a few of us decided to meet for some 'snow fights' - as we thought it would be cool to test the realities of fighting in those kinds of conditions. We all brought wasters and didn't change into our armour right away, deciding to go quarter-speed to get a feel for the snow so that we knew what to expect. Tommy was wearing super-thick pants (maybe in two layers), a t-shirt, a sweater, a fleece jacket, nylon gloves under thicker snow gloves, and a hat. He kept messing up and getting frustrated. Finally he blurted out "Damn it. I can't move in all this crap." So you see.. layered clothing, or even just thick clothing, is very different from even plate armour.
Sluagh 11-08-05, 10:00 AM	Yeah, I've never worn plate or anything quite like that, so I don't have first hand experience with it; but the idea was simply to state that adding protection tends to restrict mobility. Something to keep in mind too, especially with the D&D max dex bonus rates and such on armour, most of them allow dexterity ratings above what most people would possess, allowing full range of motion. If you think of stats as compared to what a normal person would possess, few would be restricted by D&D armours (especially since most wouldn't have a modifier rate anyway and the lowest I've seen armour have is 0). The only time there is a hindrance is when an individual is more dexterous than average and even then, only the heavier armours will bring them down to an average range. Yeah, I know D&D heroes aren't average :P
Vahenir 11-08-05, 10:27 AM	You actually hit my sentiments right on the head. That people tend to forget that 'realistically' speaking no one would have a Dex modifier of more than +1, so realistically speaking D&D armour really isn't as restrictive as it first appears (though I think all of the armours deserve to be bumped up in that regard by a point, at least). I would say that the kind of people who would most often be wearing plate armour would probably have the D&D equivalent of a +1 Dex, simply due to such people being prime specimens of human fitness.
Vrellum 11-08-05, 11:20 AM	I don't think the idea of a max dex bonus really makes any sense. A quick person is wearing armor is harder to hurt than an equally armored and skilled slow person. Wearing armor means you don't have to dodge every blow. You just move so the blow is deflected and its impact is insignificant.
Sluagh 11-08-05, 11:53 AM	Yes, hence the armour bonus to AC... a quick person may also move out of the way easier, sparing their armour a scratch, hence dex bonus. Believe it or not, impacts on armour can and do hurt. The ability of an armour to deflect a blow is represented by armour bonus to AC... You can still get hurt through armour though. To minimize the chances of getting hurt, minimize the potential for your opponent's weapon coming into contact with your armour/body; move out of the way... hence Dex bonus. You'd have to be a moron (no offense intended) if you didn't try to avoid the hit in the first place. Some armours restrict your ability to move more than others; either through poor articulation, sheer weight/bulk or a combination of the two. This generates a maximum dex bonus that the armour will allow. In most cases, the armour max dex ratings are higher than an average person could attain anyway, so it doens't come into play. It makes sense.
Vrellum 11-08-05, 02:02 PM	Ofcourse impacts to armor can hurt, but they don't necessarily hurt. When wearing armor you usually don't try to make all the attacks miss, you try to minimize their significance. The max armor bonus for heavy armors is very low (0 to +1), lots of people have better than a 13 dex, but that point is irrelevant because: A quick person in armor is still quicker than an slow person in the same type of armor. A dex cap doesn't reflect this fact.
Sluagh 11-08-05, 03:29 PM	A dex cap doesn't reflect this fact. It reflects the fact that a particularily quick character will be hindered in their movements depending on how much the armour restricts their ability to move. For slow to moderately dexterous characters, it's not going to have an affect, however for someone who is particularily nimble, they're going to lose some of that, reducing their effective dexterity. Think of it like, say a pressure regulator. A low pressure flow at a pressure below the regulator's rating will be unaffected by the regulator and will maintain it's pressure/flow rate. A higher pressure flow that is just below or meets the regulator's rating will likewise be unaffected. However, a particularily high pressure flow will have it's pressure and flow rate reduced by the pressure regulator, bringing it down to the regulator's rating. That's a lot like Max Dex bonus. Different armours are like different pressure regulator ratings... some work at 10psi, restricting the flow of most things below them, some work at 200psi restricting much higher pressures, but not affecting a much wider range of pressures than the 10psi regulator, but the 10psi regulator will protect a pipe from breakage much better (though may not be what you're looking for)... it's kinda like how say, Half-Plate will protect your body much better than padded armour, but it won't allow the same degree of flexibility.
Vrellum 11-08-05, 03:37 PM	My point is you don't need to be able to dodge a blow if you're in full plate. A glancing blow that would have taken you out of the fight or killed you if you were not armored results in a small bruise and you fight on. A high dex person in full plate is more capable of turning direct hits into glancing blows than a low dex person who is also in full plate.
Sluagh 11-08-05, 05:09 PM	Nevermind.
Vahenir 11-08-05, 05:15 PM	A high dex person in full plate is more capable of turning direct hits into glancing blows than a low dex person who is also in full plate. If you're referring to the fact that Dexterity isn't just a physical trait, but also a mental trait, then I agree with you. A highly coordinated person with good reflexes is going to be just as reflexive and coordinated no matter what clothing he's wearing. I think Sluagh's point is in Dexterity being a purely physical trait (insofar as it relates to D&D) and so a character with extremely high dexterity will be hindred by his armour. This hinderance is corrected by the fact that he's more protected, and so he is essentially only as good at avoiding injury as a lesser-Dexterity character in the same armour, because that 'super-dex' that he initially had has been denied to him. Does that sort it out?
Sluagh 11-08-05, 05:30 PM	Yeah, I'm primarily talking in terms of D&D use of the concept of Dexterity... though I would also argue that the mental aspect of dexterity is carried over in the ability score and modifier (ie the ref save). EDIT: And more to the point of the thread... I'm going to mention my preference for the idea of not altering AC for the lack of armour. Combat is deadly, low AC scores reflect that. You get into a fight, you're going to get seriously hurt; not an unreasonable expectation in a realm where people carry weapons all the time. However, I can also see the value of a moderately slow progressing AC bonus by class and level too, as that would make sense that as you get more experienced, you'll be able to avoid blows better, just as you get better to land them.
Vrellum 11-08-05, 10:59 PM	Ok, I should probably post something that is relevant to the original thread. I think DnD does try to mimic the fact that experienced fighters are harder to hit by giving them more hp. I think that mechanic works pretty good until things like touch attacks are brought to play because instead of doing damage they have an effect if they hit. So an alternative (one that I've never tried, but it might work ok) is to give an AC bonus to touch attacks based on max HP. There is a snag here because Con would have an overly important effect, an option might be to deduct Con bonus to HP, then calculate the bonus to the character's touch AC. Maybe make the bonus +1 per 10 hp or so. For example say a tenth level fighter has the following stats. Str 16 Con 16 Dex 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10 HP 94, HP before Con bonus 64 W/O his HP total would give him a + 6 bonus to his touch AC and only to his touch AC. I think the bonus should be a dodge bonus, so he would be easier to hit when he couldn't react to the attack. Unarmored his AC is 13, touch AC 19 and flatfooted AC is 10 I don't think this is too complicated (you just adjust your touch AC when you go up levels) It only affects touch AC because "normal" AC already has this built into the system by giving more HP to characters more skilled in combat I think it is consistent with the (or my) concept that skill in avoiding blows is reflected by a higher HP total. If you don't like the size of the bonus you could raise or lower the number of HP needed to give an AC bonus.
Max the Immortal 11-09-05, 04:37 AM	You don't mind if I put this onto my signature do you? Please do; just remember to give me credit :D .
nonsi 11-09-05, 05:04 AM	Some of the classes in d20 modern(maybe all;I don't remember)gain AC bonus just from level increases. no, but Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, 2-Weapon-Defense, Tumble and total defense give you some sort of protection. In my eye (not that I ever found supporters) every character should gain +1 AC bonus for every +3 attack bonuses, representing many years of defensive experience (stack with a monk's AC improvement).
Max the Immortal 11-09-05, 05:20 AM	Oh, and I've always thought that max dex caps are a good idea in principle, but seem a little silly when dealing with characters with very high ability scores. When a low level Fighter has a strength of 15 and a dexterity of 14, it makes sense for his his dex bonus to be reduced. When the same Fighter reaches level 20 and gets a bunch of Wishes and magical items, giving him a strength of 30 and a dexterity of 26, the same suit of armor should barely slow him down. I would like to see the armor sytem re-vamped. I'd like characters to gain AC bonuses as they gain levels. I would like a different armor encumberance system. Here's an idea: Increase a suit of armor's max dex bonus by the amount by which the wearer's strength bonus exceeds the armor check penalty (and perhaps reduce check penalty on skill rolls by the same number). So, the supernaturally strong and agile Fighter with Str 30 and Dex 26 would have a max dex bonus of +5 in steel full plate, and a max dex bonus of +10 in Mithral full plate (but only a +8 dex bonus). Maybe the check penalties for armor and/or the benefits of Mithral armor would have to be altered if this optional rule is used.
nonsi 11-09-05, 06:03 AM	Increase a suit of armor's max dex bonus by the amount by which the wearer's strength bonus exceeds the armor check penalty (and perhaps reduce check penalty on skill rolls by the same number) a fantastic idea, and very rational (careful with that word arround here ;-))
Vahenir 11-09-05, 08:05 AM	I'm working on my own system in which armour won't have a max dex or any other arbitrary thing like that. Rather, armour will have a value which will act as a penalty to weariness checks. For example, if you walk a mile in the desert.. that might normally be a DC 8 Con check to resist the first effects of weariness. With mail armour, the DC might rise to 15. Weariness will include everything from 'tired' to 'dying' -- with another failed check after that actually equally death. Further, I might try to work it so that an extreme failure moves you along twice, say from exhausted to dead without the 'dying' in between. Obviously not fully fleshed out yet.. but I thought that the concept was relevent.