Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Goat Face 05-19-05, 09:47 AM	I just read through the rules of grapple, and the Improved Grapple feat, and noticed that the damage done by opting to "Damage Your Opponent" is always non-leathal (with the exception of the Monk class). This holds true even if you have the feat Improved Grapple. Is this correct? ...or am I missing somthing? I know with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you have the option of choosing Lethal, or Non-Lethal. :lightbulb Hmm... What if you had the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, could the damage you do, while opting to "Damage Your Opponent" in a grapple, be lethal?? Thanks in advance for any advice...
kjenks 05-19-05, 10:17 AM	That's correct. Grapple damage ("you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike") is always nonlethal, except for monks, unless the grappler takes a -4 on the grapple check. This includes monsters with natural weapons. They inflict unarmed strike damage depending on their size, 1d3+Str for medium, 1d4+Str for large, etc. (Skip Williams got this wrong in his Rules of the Game article about grappling.)
ShinQuickMan 05-19-05, 10:20 AM	Hm. That sure sucks. I really hope they change that, otherwise grappling constructs and undead just own any living creatures (of course, assuming that they are strong enough to mantain a grapple).
babysamurai 05-19-05, 10:55 AM	That's correct. Grapple damage ("you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike") is always nonlethal, except for monks, unless the grappler takes a -4 on the grapple check. This includes monsters with natural weapons. They inflict unarmed strike damage depending on their size, 1d3+Str for medium, 1d4+Str for large, etc. (Skip Williams got this wrong in his Rules of the Game article about grappling.) I thought that a creature deals damage equal to the natural attack that it used to start the grapple, or maybe thats just with Improved Grab. Does any one have the low down?
chocobochicken 05-19-05, 11:11 AM	I just read through the rules of grapple, and the Improved Grapple feat, and noticed that the damage done by opting to "Damage Your Opponent" is always non-leathal (with the exception of the Monk class). This holds true even if you have the feat Improved Grapple. Is this correct? ...or am I missing somthing? You are missing something. From the SRD: Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. Dealing lethal damage imposes a -4 penalty on your grapple check. Improved Grapple provides a +4 bonus on your grapple check. So you could say the Improved Grapple feat allows you to deal lethal damage at no penalty (but no bonus, either). A monk with the Improved Grapple feat still comes out on top with the +4 bonus. Improved Unarmed Strike has nothing to do with grapple checks, but you can use your unarmed strike as a light weapon with a -4 penalty on an attack roll to deal lethal damage.
Goat Face 05-19-05, 11:29 AM	Ahh-ha! Good point, chocobochicken. Thanks! :D Thanks to the rest of you, as well. All of your input is appreciated.