a most basic question i cant believe i dont know the answer to [Archive] - Wizards Community

a most basic question i cant believe i dont know the answer to [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Golden Zealot
12-18-05, 05:05 PM if a normal melee attack roll is 1d20 + Str mod + size mod + Bab, is a touch attack any different?
and also, is a ranged touch attack any different from a normal ranged attack roll?
and also also, is your Str mod added to the attack roll or the damage roll for a thrown weapon?

and also also, is it true that if you are sitting, kneeling, or lying prone, you still get your full Dex mod to AC?
Sluagh
12-18-05, 05:49 PM Touch attacks are made as normal attacks... just the DC is different (Touch AC rather than normal AC)

Strength is used for both attack and damage of thrown weapons, unless otherwise stated.

All those situation describe being Flat-Footed; your Dex bonus is denied.
jaelis
12-18-05, 05:55 PM Dexterity is used on your attack roll with thrown weapons.
Zathyr
12-18-05, 06:02 PM Strength is used for both attack and damage of thrown weapons, unless otherwise stated.

correction: dex is used for attack with all ranged weapons, including thrown weapons, unless otherwise stated. There is a feat, Brutal Throw (in Complete Adevnturer), that allows you to use Str for attack with thrown weapons instead of dex.

Strength normally adds to damage with thrown weapons.

All those situation describe being Flat-Footed; your Dex bonus is denied.

Care to back that up with anything? Because as far as I can tell the rules do not support that claim.
Sluagh
12-18-05, 06:07 PM Right, I must have been thinking of a specific thrown weapon that uses Strength to attack. Or I could be on drugs... I dunno.
ShinAkuma2
12-18-05, 06:10 PM No no, those situations describe being PRONE.

The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Nothing suggests that you lose dex to AC, or are flat-footed.
Sluagh
12-18-05, 06:15 PM Sorry, yeah, I misinterpretted it; it's simply a -4 to AC (in melee); no loss of dexterity.
Zathyr
12-18-05, 06:27 PM Of course, it's possible to be flat-footed and prone.
Sluagh
12-18-05, 06:48 PM 'Tis... but it would seem unusual circumstances that would lead to it.
catzo
12-18-05, 08:48 PM if a normal melee attack roll is 1d20 + Str mod + size mod + Bab, is a touch attack any different?
Just remember that with Natural attacks, such as touch attacks, you can use Weapon finesse ;)
'Tis... but it would seem unusual circumstances that would lead to it.
If your a sleeping and gets attacked, you are both proned and flatfooded until you get a chance to react. Thats a quite normal circumstances for adventures I would think ;)
JadeSpider9643
12-18-05, 09:31 PM If your a sleeping and gets attacked, you are both proned and flatfooded until you get a chance to react. Thats a quite normal circumstances for adventures I would think ;)
if your sleeping and get attacked that's most likly called a coup de grace.
Zathyr
12-18-05, 09:41 PM If you're actually asleep, then yes you are "helpless" and could be subjest to a coup de grace. If you've just woken up, then you're very likely prone and flat-footed.

I'm not actually sure what sitting and kneeling are considered now. I think 3.0 had specific rules for those, but nothing 3.5 is coming to mind.
Waterhammer
12-18-05, 09:42 PM if your sleeping and get attacked that's most likly called a coup de grace.

Only if you forgot to post a sentry.
ShinAkuma2
12-18-05, 09:59 PM I'm not actually sure what sitting and kneeling are considered now. I think 3.0 had specific rules for those, but nothing 3.5 is coming to mind.

Sitting and kneeling are still prone.
Zathyr
12-19-05, 02:35 AM I sort of wanted to think that, but as far as I could see prone was "lying on the ground." Mind pointing me to where it says a sitting or kneeling person is considered prone?

Also, that being the case, catching someone off-guard in a tavern is another case where they would likely be prone and flat-footed. Also not an uncommon case for adventurers. ;)
Traevanon
12-19-05, 08:57 AM It might be useful to note that certain thrown weapon "tricks" particularly from the Master Thrower PrC remove your character's strength bonus to damage. Weak Spot, which makes all thrown attacks with weapons which you are focused in into touch attacks, removes the strength bonus to damage.
antsterr
12-19-05, 09:44 AM Wouldn't being prone and flat footed equal to being considered helpless?

as in: A helpless character is paralysed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

If someone is sitting down (prone) meditating and is totally unaware (flat footed) of the guys who is standing over him with his sword out, that sounds like a fair time for a coup de grace,as being helpless is the prerequisite for a coup de grace.
Golden Zealot
12-19-05, 11:50 AM according to the PHB, sitting/kneeling and lying prone are two different states, but you still get your full Dex bonus in each, which i dont really understand
nastynate
12-19-05, 11:56 AM I can only assume that while laying prone, you are easier to hit, which is why melee attackers get a +4 bonus, but you are not completely immobile. You can still roll around, and avoid attacks. Just think of the +4 bonus to hit you as a penalty to your dexterity, and it seems to make sense. If I were lying on my back after being tripped in combat and somebody was about to slam an axe into me, I know I at least would try to roll out of the way. If I were an agile acrobat my chances would still be better than a clumsy oaf, even while prone. Hence the reason why you retain your dexterity bonus.
Plothos
12-19-05, 12:03 PM Yeah, "prone" gives you a -4/+4 to your AC versus melee and ranged respectively. For "kneeling or sitting", that modifier is only -2/+2. Far as I can tell, the only difference is this modifier, and since they're different and nothing is said about not using ranged weapons while kneeling, you apparently can use your longbow while kneeling, but not when prone; so I guess that'd be why you'd do that. Probably still a move action that provokes to stand up, though I don't see a rule for that anywhere.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin
12-19-05, 02:24 PM Wouldn't being prone and flat footed equal to being considered helpless?

as in:

If someone is sitting down (prone) meditating and is totally unaware (flat footed) of the guys who is standing over him with his sword out, that sounds like a fair time for a coup de grace,as being helpless is the prerequisite for a coup de grace.

The difference between helpless and merely prone while flatfooted is the ability to move. When your prone and flatfooted, you still have the ability to react to things around you as they happen and MOVE, either a miniscule amount or a lot, in any case you may be disadvantaged greatly but as your still mobile capable you have a chance.

Helpless as listed above means you cannot move or react in any way to what is happening to you. So helpless is WORSE than just flatfooted and prone. A helpless person cannot, even if they want to, move in any fashion to save their own lives.

Sometimes it is that one micrometer of tissue that means your jugular vein is intact and your still alive...
Grond Axegrinder
12-19-05, 09:22 PM 'Tis... but it would seem unusual circumstances that would lead to it.

Simple: Someone who beats your initiative moves up to you and trips you before you can act. You are now Prone and Flatfooted when he takes his free Improved Trip attack. However, you are not Flatfooted when you try to stand up and he takes his AoO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golden Zealot 12-18-05, 05:05 PM	if a normal melee attack roll is 1d20 + Str mod + size mod + Bab, is a touch attack any different? and also, is a ranged touch attack any different from a normal ranged attack roll? and also also, is your Str mod added to the attack roll or the damage roll for a thrown weapon? and also also, is it true that if you are sitting, kneeling, or lying prone, you still get your full Dex mod to AC?
Sluagh 12-18-05, 05:49 PM	Touch attacks are made as normal attacks... just the DC is different (Touch AC rather than normal AC) Strength is used for both attack and damage of thrown weapons, unless otherwise stated. All those situation describe being Flat-Footed; your Dex bonus is denied.
jaelis 12-18-05, 05:55 PM	Dexterity is used on your attack roll with thrown weapons.
Zathyr 12-18-05, 06:02 PM	Strength is used for both attack and damage of thrown weapons, unless otherwise stated. correction: dex is used for attack with all ranged weapons, including thrown weapons, unless otherwise stated. There is a feat, Brutal Throw (in Complete Adevnturer), that allows you to use Str for attack with thrown weapons instead of dex. Strength normally adds to damage with thrown weapons. All those situation describe being Flat-Footed; your Dex bonus is denied. Care to back that up with anything? Because as far as I can tell the rules do not support that claim.
Sluagh 12-18-05, 06:07 PM	Right, I must have been thinking of a specific thrown weapon that uses Strength to attack. Or I could be on drugs... I dunno.
ShinAkuma2 12-18-05, 06:10 PM	No no, those situations describe being PRONE. The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Nothing suggests that you lose dex to AC, or are flat-footed.
Sluagh 12-18-05, 06:15 PM	Sorry, yeah, I misinterpretted it; it's simply a -4 to AC (in melee); no loss of dexterity.
Zathyr 12-18-05, 06:27 PM	Of course, it's possible to be flat-footed and prone.
Sluagh 12-18-05, 06:48 PM	'Tis... but it would seem unusual circumstances that would lead to it.
catzo 12-18-05, 08:48 PM	if a normal melee attack roll is 1d20 + Str mod + size mod + Bab, is a touch attack any different? Just remember that with Natural attacks, such as touch attacks, you can use Weapon finesse ;) 'Tis... but it would seem unusual circumstances that would lead to it. If your a sleeping and gets attacked, you are both proned and flatfooded until you get a chance to react. Thats a quite normal circumstances for adventures I would think ;)
JadeSpider9643 12-18-05, 09:31 PM	If your a sleeping and gets attacked, you are both proned and flatfooded until you get a chance to react. Thats a quite normal circumstances for adventures I would think ;) if your sleeping and get attacked that's most likly called a coup de grace.
Zathyr 12-18-05, 09:41 PM	If you're actually asleep, then yes you are "helpless" and could be subjest to a coup de grace. If you've just woken up, then you're very likely prone and flat-footed. I'm not actually sure what sitting and kneeling are considered now. I think 3.0 had specific rules for those, but nothing 3.5 is coming to mind.
Waterhammer 12-18-05, 09:42 PM	if your sleeping and get attacked that's most likly called a coup de grace. Only if you forgot to post a sentry.
ShinAkuma2 12-18-05, 09:59 PM	I'm not actually sure what sitting and kneeling are considered now. I think 3.0 had specific rules for those, but nothing 3.5 is coming to mind. Sitting and kneeling are still prone.
Zathyr 12-19-05, 02:35 AM	I sort of wanted to think that, but as far as I could see prone was "lying on the ground." Mind pointing me to where it says a sitting or kneeling person is considered prone? Also, that being the case, catching someone off-guard in a tavern is another case where they would likely be prone and flat-footed. Also not an uncommon case for adventurers. ;)
Traevanon 12-19-05, 08:57 AM	It might be useful to note that certain thrown weapon "tricks" particularly from the Master Thrower PrC remove your character's strength bonus to damage. Weak Spot, which makes all thrown attacks with weapons which you are focused in into touch attacks, removes the strength bonus to damage.
antsterr 12-19-05, 09:44 AM	Wouldn't being prone and flat footed equal to being considered helpless? as in: A helpless character is paralysed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. If someone is sitting down (prone) meditating and is totally unaware (flat footed) of the guys who is standing over him with his sword out, that sounds like a fair time for a coup de grace,as being helpless is the prerequisite for a coup de grace.
Golden Zealot 12-19-05, 11:50 AM	according to the PHB, sitting/kneeling and lying prone are two different states, but you still get your full Dex bonus in each, which i dont really understand
nastynate 12-19-05, 11:56 AM	I can only assume that while laying prone, you are easier to hit, which is why melee attackers get a +4 bonus, but you are not completely immobile. You can still roll around, and avoid attacks. Just think of the +4 bonus to hit you as a penalty to your dexterity, and it seems to make sense. If I were lying on my back after being tripped in combat and somebody was about to slam an axe into me, I know I at least would try to roll out of the way. If I were an agile acrobat my chances would still be better than a clumsy oaf, even while prone. Hence the reason why you retain your dexterity bonus.
Plothos 12-19-05, 12:03 PM	Yeah, "prone" gives you a -4/+4 to your AC versus melee and ranged respectively. For "kneeling or sitting", that modifier is only -2/+2. Far as I can tell, the only difference is this modifier, and since they're different and nothing is said about not using ranged weapons while kneeling, you apparently can use your longbow while kneeling, but not when prone; so I guess that'd be why you'd do that. Probably still a move action that provokes to stand up, though I don't see a rule for that anywhere.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 12-19-05, 02:24 PM	Wouldn't being prone and flat footed equal to being considered helpless? as in: If someone is sitting down (prone) meditating and is totally unaware (flat footed) of the guys who is standing over him with his sword out, that sounds like a fair time for a coup de grace,as being helpless is the prerequisite for a coup de grace. The difference between helpless and merely prone while flatfooted is the ability to move. When your prone and flatfooted, you still have the ability to react to things around you as they happen and MOVE, either a miniscule amount or a lot, in any case you may be disadvantaged greatly but as your still mobile capable you have a chance. Helpless as listed above means you cannot move or react in any way to what is happening to you. So helpless is WORSE than just flatfooted and prone. A helpless person cannot, even if they want to, move in any fashion to save their own lives. Sometimes it is that one micrometer of tissue that means your jugular vein is intact and your still alive...
Grond Axegrinder 12-19-05, 09:22 PM	'Tis... but it would seem unusual circumstances that would lead to it. Simple: Someone who beats your initiative moves up to you and trips you before you can act. You are now Prone and Flatfooted when he takes his free Improved Trip attack. However, you are not Flatfooted when you try to stand up and he takes his AoO.