Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IceFractal 10-27-04, 02:24 PM	I'm working on a setting that has firearms in it, which will be somewhat different than the standard ones (as seen in the recent Dragon article as well as the DMG). These firearms are powered by phlogistin (a nonexistant substance that was used to explain combustion, it was sometimes said to have negative weight, but in this setting, it does exist, leaking through dimentional rifts from the plane of fire). The difference I'm going for over standard firearms is: * More Lethal * Slower to load * More dangerous to the wielder And the rules I have in place are: * Firearms misfire on a natural 1, this can result in the gun exploding, catching on fire, blasting out flame in a line, jamming, or firing off target. * Firearms can be rush loaded, but this makes them misfire on a 1 or 2. * I'm using some alternate combat rules where armor reduces damage instead of raising AC, but some weapons can penetrate armor. Firearms are the best weapons at penetrating armor (penetration 6 (pistol) versus penetration 2 (crossbow with armor piercing bolts)). So lets look at the pistol: Standard Pistol: 1H Firearm, 1d10 (x3), 50' range inc, standard action to reload. Altered Pistol: 1H Firearm, ? (x3), 50' range inc, full-round action or standard action (rush load) to reload, chance of mishap. Both of these would load faster if they had the Breech Loading modification. So, how much damage do you think it should do? What's a fair increase in exchange for either a longer load time and a 1/20 chance of misfire or the same load time with a 1/10 chance of misfire (normal vs rush loading)? Is the improved armor-piercing capacity enough of a boost or should it do higher damage? (1d12? 2d6?) I have a question about the Carbine too, but I'd like to get some opinions on this first.
Aion 10-27-04, 07:38 PM	I say a few armor in dnd can withstand pistols, everything else is shredded by the bullets.
IceFractal 10-28-04, 01:02 AM	That's what the penetration value stands for, in the variant combat system I'm using, armor reduces damage equal to its bonus instead of boosting AC (so full plate reduces damage by 8 points), and guns can penetrate this (for instance, a pistol has 6 penetration, so full plate only reduces its damage by 2 points instead of 8). With the standard rules, you could say that a gun ignores up to its penetration value in armor bonus to AC, so someone wearing full plate would only get +2 AC from it against someone using a pistol. This applies to natural armor too, but not force armor, and magical armor always grants at least its enchantment bonus to AC (so +5 studded leather against a pistol would grant +5 AC instead of +2, the magical protection is not piercable by the gun). If you use this, certain other weapons should have a little penetration: there should be armor piercing crossbow bolts (2 penetration, triple normal cost), the light pick should have penetration 2, and the heavy pick should have penetration 4. You might want to lower the damage or critical on those weapons a little to compensate. I'm wondering if this is a fair trade off for the slower loading time and chance of misfire/explosion, or if I should boost damage a bit.
tate 10-28-04, 03:06 AM	The type of armor system you are using reminds me of the old Warhammer 40,000 wargames rules. Here is the gist: each weapon has a pennetration value, and each armor has an armor value, if the pennetration is greater than the armor value the armor is ignored, if the pennetration is less than the armor value then the armor takes full effect. Just something to consider, I know its not really what you asked but thought it might help somehow. Back to your question: I would say boost the damage, or leave the reload time the same or something. So either 2d6 damage with full/std round reload for 5%/10% misfire or d10 damage with standard action with 5% misfire. Just a though, I am by no means an expert
IceFractal 10-28-04, 03:05 PM	The only thing is, if I made the standard reload time a standard action, it would be a move action with rush load and a free action with rush load and a breech loading weapon, and I'm not sure it would be balanced to have it shoot as fast as a bow. What if I made the critical x4 instead of x3, or what about 19-20/x3? Now my second question. I'm also using a Carbine (the weapons I have so far are Light Pistol, Pistol, Carbine, and Blunderbus), and the Carbine takes longer to load (two full-round actions normally, a full-round action to Rush Load (which increases the chance of misfire), but does 2d8 instead of 1d12. Again, I'm wondering if this is balanced or if it should load faster. The range increment is shorter (only 75') but this doubles if you add the Rifled Barrel modification.
tate 10-28-04, 03:44 PM	Well I see your point about rush loading and breach loading and all, but two full round actions just to deal 2d8 damage, even with a x4 crit that sucks. While the rush-load is a great idea, maybe it doesnt have a place with pistols. Here are my suggestions, keep in mind that this is my first shot at firearm rules. I would check out D20 modern to see how they do it as well. think of rush loading as having the Rapid Reload feat for Crossbows, and breach loading is a very technologically advanced feature, just think about real life, you can breach load a shotgun pretty quickly. type- load time (rush), damage, crit, armor pennetration, range {honestly dont know about this one, arbitrary for me here} 1 Handed Light Pistol- move (free), d8, 19-20/x2, 4, 20' Pistol- move (free), d10, 19-20/x3, 4, 40' Carbine- full (move), 2d6, 18-20/x3, 5, 60' 2 Handed Rifle- full (move), 2d8, 18-20/ x4, 6, 80' Blunderbuss- full (move), d10, 20/x2, 4, make attacks against all in 15' cone, double chance for missfire. {might not be what you had in mind, so feel free to change it, just my thoughts} I made them pretty strong in terms of crits, maybe not your style but I see that being very related to armor penn. (the reason why scimitars have such a good threat range, because they could slice through armor). There are some great links on these boards to firearms FAQ's, some guy wrote out some pretty extensive stuff that is really interesting. He might know more of the historical values if you are interested. sorry this is all I can do. good luck
Watchman 10-28-04, 04:55 PM	Carbines aren't one-handed weapons. They're shorter versions of the standard long-arm (in this case "rifle", though that's probably a misnomer as it refers to a rifled gun), meant to be used by cavalrymen and other folks who for one reason or another find the full-sized thing too cumbersome and unwieldy. ... ! :mad: ! And scimitars couldn't "slice through" armor, quite to the contrary - saber-type weapons are specifically pretty darn lousy against any decent body defenses. They carve "soft" things like flesh right well though, and were noted for their considerable limb-severing ability.
tate 10-28-04, 07:46 PM	my bad. I admitted that I dont know much about guns here, and the scimitar thing was poorly explained on my point. I meant to say that they were really really sharp and could deal with lightly armord foes by slicing through armor. Again, my bad, but honestly its not a big deal dude so there is no need to get the "mad face" out ;). heh, trust me I have read my share of the "katana vs. knight" debate so I understand my errors in typing.
IceFractal 10-28-04, 11:31 PM	I never said Carbines were one handed, they're two-handed, so are blunderbusses, pistols are one-handed, and light pistols are light. I did realize something I could do though; instead of boosting the damage I'll lower the price, as the standard firearms cost a lot. Maybe I should just post the whole system. Also, I'm thinking: Pistol/Light Pistol load time is a standard action, move action with Breech Loading, pistols can't be rush loaded. Carbine & Blunderbus load time is a full-round action, standard action with Breech loading, and those weapons can be rush loaded, as a standard action, or a move action with breech loading. This makes them work more quickly without lowering it to a free action, which I want to reserve for the mechanical firearms that can fire multiple shots a round. Maybe I should post the whole system, as much as I have now anyway. Do you want it in a new thread or this one?
tate 10-28-04, 11:40 PM	Yeah just go and post the whole thing, that would be helpful. I dont care if its here, edit the title if you want so more people read it maybe. My only problem with standard reload actions is that someone could move 30' (or whatever) and reload. In a dynamic system I envision someone hustling across a field and having to deal with a powder horn, ramrod, and all the other great stuff that goes with muzzle loading a firearm. Maybe its just me being too caught up in the real world and stuff, if it works for you then go for it, just a suggestion.