A Newer, Better Vorpal. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Newer, Better Vorpal. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JiobiValen
02-11-05, 04:20 PM I've seen plenty of threads now about how the Vorpal effect is far too "relying on a 20 with too great effects on that 20" to be a useful weapon so.. I figured I would post my own take on the Vorpal ability. Questions and comments as always are appreciated.

Vorpal: This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever or destroy the limbs of those it strikes. Upon a confirmed critical hit, the weapon severs or destroys one of the opponent’s limbs chosen from the table below from its body. Some creatures may have more than one limb or lack one altogether. If a creature looses all its heads it dies with no save. A notable exception being golems and undead creatures other than vampires, which are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a melee or thrown weapon.

Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, circle of death, keen edge; Price +5 bonus.

Vorpal Effect:
Roll a d10 and use the following results.
1-4: Arm Hit: Inability to use arm for anything. -5 cumulative penalty to all checks that involve use of the Arms. -4 Strength.
5-8: Leg Hit: Speed Cut in half (Or reduced to 5ft. if all legs have been destroyed) -5 cumalative penalty to all checks that involve use of the legs. -4 Dex.
09: Torso Hit: Maximum HP cut in half before damage rolled for, Must make an immediate save for massive damage, Loss of all lower limbs and -4 to Con.
10: Head hit: Int,Wis,Cha Permanently reduced by 2, possible death.

Notes:
1. The stat reduction is not even considered a drain, it is more like the inability to use the stat at all, therefore it effects even creatures normally immune to stat drain.
2. Along those same lines the sword will not deal extra damage on a critical but will still cause the Vorpal effect.
3. The Vorpal ability on Bludgeoning or Piercing weapons will now actually "Chop off" the limp per say, I see it as the weapon hitting some kind of critical speed with a blur of black glowing energy behind it. So it hits that part of the body with such force it either chops it off, rips it off, smashes it, etc.
4. Ever notice how the regeneration spell has no real use? Well, now it does. If its not obvious, the stats can only be restored with the limbs being regenerated.
tarkin
02-11-05, 04:56 PM The ability needs to only work on a natural 20, just like Vorpal, otherwise, they are epic abilities.

The basic problem is that cutting a limb is so horribly deadly that any reasonable interpretation of it will require a limitation such as only on a natural 20.

Tying things to criticals is a joke of a limiation for anything powerfull enough to be called "Vorpal" because of the many crit increasing affects.

If you lose an arm or leg, you are effectively OUT of the game. Fall down, game over. "He is still alive" you whine - but the rest of us realize that both in real life and in game, if you lose an arm or leg, you have already lost the battle. Did you see Monty' Python's Holy grail? Come back here and I'll bite you to death. Yeah. Get real.

And "On a crit" quickly becomes 15-20, even with the most strict DM, which is 30% of the time. That is the kind of rule that only a munchkin will allow to work.
HomebrewedMonster
02-11-05, 05:01 PM By all means I'll allow it as a DM, but don't think my monsters won't have be using scimitars of vorpal.
Draco Strang
02-13-05, 01:31 AM Uh-uh. I remember too many horror stories from 2nd ed. with critical hit/miss charts, and body location/severity charts. I'll stick to the old "5 percent of the time you lop the monster's head off" rule.
Saberorc
02-13-05, 03:03 AM I have played in games recently that used the chart for vorpal weapons. My character died. But that is supposed to happen when someone cuts off your right leg.
GreyGriffin
02-13-05, 07:45 AM New, better Vorpal, KISS style.

Vorpal: +3 enhancement, slashing weapons only.
This weapon has incredible cutting power, hewing through bone and sinew with ease. It is all too easy to severely maim or even decapitate a creature with a powerful Vorpal weapon.
Effect: This weapon is considered a keen weapon. Its critical multiplier is also increased by one. (So a x2 critical multiplier becomes a x3.)
HomebrewedMonster
02-14-05, 03:06 AM New, better Vorpal, KISS style.

Vorpal: +3 enhancement, slashing weapons only.
This weapon has incredible cutting power, hewing through bone and sinew with ease. It is all too easy to severely maim or even decapitate a creature with a powerful Vorpal weapon.
Effect: This weapon is considered a keen weapon. Its critical multiplier is also increased by one. (So a x2 critical multiplier becomes a x3.)

I would say that's closer to a +4 bonus, especially since your vorpal scimitars are just ridiculious. A good scimitar fighter can easily do 1d6+10 by the time they have resources to get a +4 weapon, meaning they can (on a 16-20) deal times three damage. :bored:
GreyGriffin
02-14-05, 03:41 AM I would say that's closer to a +4 bonus, especially since your vorpal scimitars are just ridiculious. A good scimitar fighter can easily do 1d6+10 by the time they have resources to get a +4 weapon, meaning they can (on a 16-20) deal times three damage. :bored:

All right, then why not bump it straight up to +5, and have it do an additional 1d4 strength damage on a critical hit? When it reduces the enemy to Strength 0, then the enemy is "dying." (Decapitated, fatally dismembered, etc...)

It is the "Ultimate" weapon enchantment, after all.
Korimyr the Rat
02-14-05, 03:56 AM In my games, "Vorpal" is a +1 ability that increases the multiplier by one.

In a game with a low Massive Damage Threshold, like mine, that's deadly enough to be feared.
The_Grikk
02-14-05, 08:39 AM All right, then why not bump it straight up to +5, and have it do an additional 1d4 strength damage on a critical hit? When it reduces the enemy to Strength 0, then the enemy is "dying." (Decapitated, fatally dismembered, etc...)

It is the "Ultimate" weapon enchantment, after all.

i would do constitution dmg instead of str. Since your getting cut so deep it makes more sence to be bleeding to death than to be paralized to death.

maybe im just weird like that
GreyGriffin
02-14-05, 09:53 AM I chose strength damage specifically to (coarsely) emulate the old Sword of Sharpness. The idea is that while you're not causing huge amounts of bleeding or even physical trauma, your cuts are causing your foe a true physical impediment. Cut hamstrings, sliced tendon and muscle, chipped bone, and the like will all sap your opponent's strength, and handicap them.

You could easily make it Con damage, but Strength damage gives it a more stylistic flair, I think.
Frozen Yakman
02-14-05, 12:51 PM I would say that's closer to a +4 bonus, especially since your vorpal scimitars are just ridiculious. A good scimitar fighter can easily do 1d6+10 by the time they have resources to get a +4 weapon, meaning they can (on a 16-20) deal times three damage. :bored:

More like +2 since it's pretty close to just adding keen twice. Doubling the threat range is roughly equal to increasing the multiplier by one (they differ at about the thousandths decimal place, so for a normal game the difference will never be too pronounced)
HomebrewedMonster
02-14-05, 07:27 PM All right, then why not bump it straight up to +5, and have it do an additional 1d4 strength damage on a critical hit? When it reduces the enemy to Strength 0, then the enemy is "dying." (Decapitated, fatally dismembered, etc...)

It is the "Ultimate" weapon enchantment, after all.

It is the ultimate weapon enchantment, 1 out of every 20 rolls you kill someone instantly.
HomebrewedMonster
02-14-05, 07:32 PM More like +2 since it's pretty close to just adding keen twice. Doubling the threat range is roughly equal to increasing the multiplier by one (they differ at about the thousandths decimal place, so for a normal game the difference will never be too pronounced)

No, its no similar. The average 5th level fighter (stats in the DMG) wields a bastard sword. Now that its keened (criticals on 17-20 or 20% of your rolls) deals three times the damage rolled instead of twice. This is not balanced.
angryman
02-14-05, 10:03 PM Also with limb loss, there might be, er, bleeding. Maybe a wounding effect, too...
JiobiValen
02-14-05, 10:13 PM Well, it seems clear that there really is no way to make a vorpal for everybody. Seems the biggest problem is having to consult a table but I really like the idea of having a way to make it something besides the head being chopped off. Thought that by having a table with different powerful but not insta death abilities would make for a much more interesting enchantment and give a new use for regenerate.

As far as the wounding ability, it sounds good to me but perhaps it complicates the whole matter too much.
Callahan
02-14-05, 11:02 PM Well, it seems clear that there really is no way to make a vorpal for everybody. Seems the biggest problem is having to consult a table but I really like the idea of having a way to make it something besides the head being chopped off. Thought that by having a table with different powerful but not insta death abilities would make for a much more interesting enchantment and give a new use for regenerate.

As far as the wounding ability, it sounds good to me but perhaps it complicates the whole matter too much.
and makes beholders all the more invulnerable to the effect
http://boards1.wizards.com/images/smilies/beholder_yellow.gif - no neck, arms, legs or torso.
Frozen Yakman
02-15-05, 05:52 AM No, its no similar. The average 5th level fighter (stats in the DMG) wields a bastard sword. Now that its keened (criticals on 17-20 or 20% of your rolls) deals three times the damage rolled instead of twice. This is not balanced.

Increasing the multiplier is almost equal to doubling the threat range. Mathematically speaking they differ in the thousandths decimal place. I could prove this but it takes more time than I have at the moment.

5th level fighter? Why are you talking about a 5th level fighter here much less one with a +3 weapon (or higher)? Yes a Vorpal Bastard Sword +1 (1d10+1, 17-20/x3) is powerful but you're still better off at most levels buying another energy enhancement (i.e. a Flaming Frosting Bastard Sword +1 (1d10+1+1d6 fire+1d6 cold 19-20/x2) is going to be a better weapon unless you're talking really high levels.

Also 20% is a bogus statistic. 20% is the chance you'll roll a 17+ on a d20. At best your chance for a critical at 17-20 is 19.5% more often that that it is lower.
Duskey
02-15-05, 06:03 AM Check out my take on it: It's a bit like the old "sever" ability from ad&d, the link is in my sig.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JiobiValen 02-11-05, 04:20 PM	I've seen plenty of threads now about how the Vorpal effect is far too "relying on a 20 with too great effects on that 20" to be a useful weapon so.. I figured I would post my own take on the Vorpal ability. Questions and comments as always are appreciated. Vorpal: This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever or destroy the limbs of those it strikes. Upon a confirmed critical hit, the weapon severs or destroys one of the opponent’s limbs chosen from the table below from its body. Some creatures may have more than one limb or lack one altogether. If a creature looses all its heads it dies with no save. A notable exception being golems and undead creatures other than vampires, which are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a melee or thrown weapon. Strong necromancy and transmutation; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, circle of death, keen edge; Price +5 bonus. Vorpal Effect: Roll a d10 and use the following results. 1-4: Arm Hit: Inability to use arm for anything. -5 cumulative penalty to all checks that involve use of the Arms. -4 Strength. 5-8: Leg Hit: Speed Cut in half (Or reduced to 5ft. if all legs have been destroyed) -5 cumalative penalty to all checks that involve use of the legs. -4 Dex. 09: Torso Hit: Maximum HP cut in half before damage rolled for, Must make an immediate save for massive damage, Loss of all lower limbs and -4 to Con. 10: Head hit: Int,Wis,Cha Permanently reduced by 2, possible death. Notes: 1. The stat reduction is not even considered a drain, it is more like the inability to use the stat at all, therefore it effects even creatures normally immune to stat drain. 2. Along those same lines the sword will not deal extra damage on a critical but will still cause the Vorpal effect. 3. The Vorpal ability on Bludgeoning or Piercing weapons will now actually "Chop off" the limp per say, I see it as the weapon hitting some kind of critical speed with a blur of black glowing energy behind it. So it hits that part of the body with such force it either chops it off, rips it off, smashes it, etc. 4. Ever notice how the regeneration spell has no real use? Well, now it does. If its not obvious, the stats can only be restored with the limbs being regenerated.
tarkin 02-11-05, 04:56 PM	The ability needs to only work on a natural 20, just like Vorpal, otherwise, they are epic abilities. The basic problem is that cutting a limb is so horribly deadly that any reasonable interpretation of it will require a limitation such as only on a natural 20. Tying things to criticals is a joke of a limiation for anything powerfull enough to be called "Vorpal" because of the many crit increasing affects. If you lose an arm or leg, you are effectively OUT of the game. Fall down, game over. "He is still alive" you whine - but the rest of us realize that both in real life and in game, if you lose an arm or leg, you have already lost the battle. Did you see Monty' Python's Holy grail? Come back here and I'll bite you to death. Yeah. Get real. And "On a crit" quickly becomes 15-20, even with the most strict DM, which is 30% of the time. That is the kind of rule that only a munchkin will allow to work.
HomebrewedMonster 02-11-05, 05:01 PM	By all means I'll allow it as a DM, but don't think my monsters won't have be using scimitars of vorpal.
Draco Strang 02-13-05, 01:31 AM	Uh-uh. I remember too many horror stories from 2nd ed. with critical hit/miss charts, and body location/severity charts. I'll stick to the old "5 percent of the time you lop the monster's head off" rule.
Saberorc 02-13-05, 03:03 AM	I have played in games recently that used the chart for vorpal weapons. My character died. But that is supposed to happen when someone cuts off your right leg.
GreyGriffin 02-13-05, 07:45 AM	New, better Vorpal, KISS style. Vorpal: +3 enhancement, slashing weapons only. This weapon has incredible cutting power, hewing through bone and sinew with ease. It is all too easy to severely maim or even decapitate a creature with a powerful Vorpal weapon. Effect: This weapon is considered a keen weapon. Its critical multiplier is also increased by one. (So a x2 critical multiplier becomes a x3.)
HomebrewedMonster 02-14-05, 03:06 AM	New, better Vorpal, KISS style. Vorpal: +3 enhancement, slashing weapons only. This weapon has incredible cutting power, hewing through bone and sinew with ease. It is all too easy to severely maim or even decapitate a creature with a powerful Vorpal weapon. Effect: This weapon is considered a keen weapon. Its critical multiplier is also increased by one. (So a x2 critical multiplier becomes a x3.) I would say that's closer to a +4 bonus, especially since your vorpal scimitars are just ridiculious. A good scimitar fighter can easily do 1d6+10 by the time they have resources to get a +4 weapon, meaning they can (on a 16-20) deal times three damage. :bored:
GreyGriffin 02-14-05, 03:41 AM	I would say that's closer to a +4 bonus, especially since your vorpal scimitars are just ridiculious. A good scimitar fighter can easily do 1d6+10 by the time they have resources to get a +4 weapon, meaning they can (on a 16-20) deal times three damage. :bored: All right, then why not bump it straight up to +5, and have it do an additional 1d4 strength damage on a critical hit? When it reduces the enemy to Strength 0, then the enemy is "dying." (Decapitated, fatally dismembered, etc...) It is the "Ultimate" weapon enchantment, after all.
Korimyr the Rat 02-14-05, 03:56 AM	In my games, "Vorpal" is a +1 ability that increases the multiplier by one. In a game with a low Massive Damage Threshold, like mine, that's deadly enough to be feared.
The_Grikk 02-14-05, 08:39 AM	All right, then why not bump it straight up to +5, and have it do an additional 1d4 strength damage on a critical hit? When it reduces the enemy to Strength 0, then the enemy is "dying." (Decapitated, fatally dismembered, etc...) It is the "Ultimate" weapon enchantment, after all. i would do constitution dmg instead of str. Since your getting cut so deep it makes more sence to be bleeding to death than to be paralized to death. maybe im just weird like that
GreyGriffin 02-14-05, 09:53 AM	I chose strength damage specifically to (coarsely) emulate the old Sword of Sharpness. The idea is that while you're not causing huge amounts of bleeding or even physical trauma, your cuts are causing your foe a true physical impediment. Cut hamstrings, sliced tendon and muscle, chipped bone, and the like will all sap your opponent's strength, and handicap them. You could easily make it Con damage, but Strength damage gives it a more stylistic flair, I think.
Frozen Yakman 02-14-05, 12:51 PM	I would say that's closer to a +4 bonus, especially since your vorpal scimitars are just ridiculious. A good scimitar fighter can easily do 1d6+10 by the time they have resources to get a +4 weapon, meaning they can (on a 16-20) deal times three damage. :bored: More like +2 since it's pretty close to just adding keen twice. Doubling the threat range is roughly equal to increasing the multiplier by one (they differ at about the thousandths decimal place, so for a normal game the difference will never be too pronounced)
HomebrewedMonster 02-14-05, 07:27 PM	All right, then why not bump it straight up to +5, and have it do an additional 1d4 strength damage on a critical hit? When it reduces the enemy to Strength 0, then the enemy is "dying." (Decapitated, fatally dismembered, etc...) It is the "Ultimate" weapon enchantment, after all. It is the ultimate weapon enchantment, 1 out of every 20 rolls you kill someone instantly.
HomebrewedMonster 02-14-05, 07:32 PM	More like +2 since it's pretty close to just adding keen twice. Doubling the threat range is roughly equal to increasing the multiplier by one (they differ at about the thousandths decimal place, so for a normal game the difference will never be too pronounced) No, its no similar. The average 5th level fighter (stats in the DMG) wields a bastard sword. Now that its keened (criticals on 17-20 or 20% of your rolls) deals three times the damage rolled instead of twice. This is not balanced.
angryman 02-14-05, 10:03 PM	Also with limb loss, there might be, er, bleeding. Maybe a wounding effect, too...
JiobiValen 02-14-05, 10:13 PM	Well, it seems clear that there really is no way to make a vorpal for everybody. Seems the biggest problem is having to consult a table but I really like the idea of having a way to make it something besides the head being chopped off. Thought that by having a table with different powerful but not insta death abilities would make for a much more interesting enchantment and give a new use for regenerate. As far as the wounding ability, it sounds good to me but perhaps it complicates the whole matter too much.
Callahan 02-14-05, 11:02 PM	Well, it seems clear that there really is no way to make a vorpal for everybody. Seems the biggest problem is having to consult a table but I really like the idea of having a way to make it something besides the head being chopped off. Thought that by having a table with different powerful but not insta death abilities would make for a much more interesting enchantment and give a new use for regenerate. As far as the wounding ability, it sounds good to me but perhaps it complicates the whole matter too much. and makes beholders all the more invulnerable to the effect http://boards1.wizards.com/images/smilies/beholder_yellow.gif - no neck, arms, legs or torso.
Frozen Yakman 02-15-05, 05:52 AM	No, its no similar. The average 5th level fighter (stats in the DMG) wields a bastard sword. Now that its keened (criticals on 17-20 or 20% of your rolls) deals three times the damage rolled instead of twice. This is not balanced. Increasing the multiplier is almost equal to doubling the threat range. Mathematically speaking they differ in the thousandths decimal place. I could prove this but it takes more time than I have at the moment. 5th level fighter? Why are you talking about a 5th level fighter here much less one with a +3 weapon (or higher)? Yes a Vorpal Bastard Sword +1 (1d10+1, 17-20/x3) is powerful but you're still better off at most levels buying another energy enhancement (i.e. a Flaming Frosting Bastard Sword +1 (1d10+1+1d6 fire+1d6 cold 19-20/x2) is going to be a better weapon unless you're talking really high levels. Also 20% is a bogus statistic. 20% is the chance you'll roll a 17+ on a d20. At best your chance for a critical at 17-20 is 19.5% more often that that it is lower.
Duskey 02-15-05, 06:03 AM	Check out my take on it: It's a bit like the old "sever" ability from ad&d, the link is in my sig.