Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LifeScience 11-10-05, 11:31 AM	when we crafted a mithril chainshirt we have different views by the rules: To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps. 1. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp). 2. Find the DC from the table below. 3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials. i think one Mithril Chainshirt is 1100gp in DMG,so only paid 366gp(1/3*1100) for raw materials. but someone thinks Chainshirt is 100gp in PHB, so paid 66gp(1/3*100) for cost of raw materials and add 1000gp for Mithrial which view is right?
LifeScience 11-10-05, 10:58 PM	any kind smith online?
Crash01234567890 11-10-05, 11:08 PM	The DM's view is the right one because he is the DM, but if he is just takcing on one thousand gold for mithril he shouldn't make it take as long, he should only use the 33 gp value of the chain shirt for determining time taking. 1/3 of 100 is 33.3333333333333333333..ect. by the way not 66.666666666666...ect.
LifeScience 11-10-05, 11:36 PM	yes, it takes 33gp of chainshirt when crafted
masterofmayhem 11-10-05, 11:49 PM	when we crafted a mithril chainshirt we have different views by the rules: To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps. 1. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp). 2. Find the DC from the table below. 3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials. i think one Mithril Chainshirt is 1100gp in DMG,so only paid 366gp(1/3*1100) for raw materials. but someone thinks Chainshirt is 100gp in PHB, so paid 66gp(1/3*100) for cost of raw materials and add 1000gp for Mithrial which view is right? Thus cost would be one-third of the total cost, or 366 gold. The mithral price is lowered (and counts for crafting time), because it is part of the total price for the item. Logically, it takes longer because the mithral is much more difficult to craft with. Instead of a raised DC for the difficulty of the material, the only thing D&D uses to represent that difficulty is an increased crafting time. But yes, only 366 gold.
LifeScience 11-11-05, 07:58 AM	but someone thinks it's not reasonable, because the crafting time is so long. for example, my character is a lv 2 dwarf wizard and my craft skill(armorsmithing) is 13(5rank+4int+2racial+2masterwork tool) when i crafted a mithril chainshirt, everyweek i could make a progress like that: (13+1d20avg)*14(DC)=(23.5*14)=329 sp for average and i need about 34weeks to finished my mithril chainshirt i think it's reasonable because it's a period of cold weapon, but they don't agree. so i want to know, what's your opinion, if crafted a mithril with 34 weeks?
Tony Vargas 11-11-05, 12:29 PM	I think one Mithril Chainshirt is 1100gp in DMG,so only paid 366gp(1/3*1100) for raw materials. but someone thinks Chainshirt is 100gp in PHB, so paid 34gp(1/3*100) for cost of raw materials and add 1000gp for Mithrial which view is right? Actually, either of those seem reasonable to me. In the first case, you're forging up from raw materials (maybe even ore, depending on WTF mithral /is/), in the second, you're taking finished mithral and working it into a chain shirt (if you've ever seen SCA'ers making mail from heavy gauge wire, you get the idea).
masterofmayhem 11-11-05, 03:29 PM	Yes, they are both reasonable. What the original poster is asking for, though, is which is correct per the RAW, and his first one is (i.e., the less expensive one). but someone thinks it's not reasonable, because the crafting time is so long. It's perfectly reasonable. In fact, it's partially that long crafting time that makes it so reasonable. This material is so hard to work with, and so expensive, that you dare not work quickly (or something like that).
mvincent 11-11-05, 03:45 PM	Yes, they are both reasonable. What the original poster is asking for, though, is which is correct per the RAW, and his first one is (i.e., the less expensive one).Yup by RAW, that is correct. However, the original poster asked which is right (rather than which is RAW). Either could be 'right'*, since the Rules As Written weren't meant to cover every circumstance. * otherwise, gem encrusted daggers would always take an extremely long time to make.
Wiglaf 11-12-05, 04:49 AM	I think it would be wise to consider some "market mechanics" as well. If you can buy a mithral shirt for 1.100 gp at your local smith (or armorer or wherever) this means that the person selling the item wanted to make a living be this and earn some profit. His investments are reflected in the costs for raw material and the time (and know-how = skill bonus) he spends working. So adding mithral costs later would make it a poor way to earn a living by it.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-12-05, 03:39 PM	Yeah, the Craft rules are pretty poorly written. I mean, look them over again and figure about how long it would take you to craft a quarterstaff. Best solutions to this dilemma: 1) fabricate 2) Make the DM do it.
Beware of Kobold 11-12-05, 05:46 PM	Yeah, the Craft rules are pretty poorly written. I mean, look them over again and figure about how long it would take you to craft a quarterstaff. i think you missed something there, Tyler. A quarterstaff has no market price (it's listed as "-" along with clubs, slings, etc.) so you could make one in basically 0 time. Pick a good branch off a tree, and wittle or lathe it down. It might take 1 day or less.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-13-05, 02:02 AM	i think you missed something there, Tyler. A quarterstaff has no market price (it's listed as "-" along with clubs, slings, etc.) so you could make one in basically 0 time. Pick a good branch off a tree, and wittle or lathe it down. It might take 1 day or less. Nono, the way the craft rules are written, 0 time means exactly that. Because there is no minimum crafting time, the inverse proportion set up by the rules means you could do it instantaneously. Picking up a stick is a move action. Using craft to fashion a quarterstaff wouldn't even be an action. By the RAW, you could pretty much walk up to any tree with your tools and it would instantaneously collapse into a pile of quarterstaves and clubs.
syrinth 11-13-05, 02:06 AM	:heehee
BjornBSQ 11-13-05, 04:14 AM	It's even more complicated then you think... Any Weapon or Armor made in Mithral (or any other Special Material) MUST be Masterwork, but the Masterwork price is included in the price for Mithral given in the DMG. This leads me to believe that the Price in the DMG replaces the MW component price. Crafting Masterwork Arms/Armor requires 2 separate craft checks. One for the Arm/Armor at standard DC, and a Second For the "Masterwork Component" at DC 20. These are coasted out separately (Yes I know it ends up being the same price anyways)... Normal MW Chain Shirt costs 250 gp at the store. 100 for the Shirt and 150 for the MW. The shirt component costs the crafter 33.33 gp, and takes 1000 sp of "Work" at DC 14 (10 + AC). The MW Component costs him 50 gp and takes 1500 sp of "Work" at DC 20 Replacing The MW Price with the MW Mithral Price bumps the cost at shop to 1100 (100 + 1000 for Mithral light MW armor) The shirt cost and DC stays the same but the MW component now costs him 333.33 gp and 10000 sp of "Work" at DC 20. The rolls are made simulations and failure on either by 5+ ruins half the total materials and they must be repurchased at 1/2 material costs. The Crafter CAN take 10 on there checks though it could slow down the crafting but eliminates failure if Skill is high enough. Besides it can always be expedited buy adding 10 to the DC’s
Far_Traveler 11-13-05, 12:16 PM	on the 0 price thing, it would take one week to make a quarterstaff or a club
Tyler Do'Urden 11-13-05, 01:33 PM	on the 0 price thing, it would take one week to make a quarterstaff or a club 1. What if you check by the day?Progress by the Day: You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) is in copper pieces instead of silver pieces.Does it still take a week? 2. Nowhere in the Craft rules do they set a minimum time, just an inverse proportion. That's the whole point. 3. It makes no sense that a 1 gp item would take less time to craft than a 0 gp item. Let's do an experiment. We've got a smith with an Int of 14, 5 ranks in Craft (weapon), Skill Focus (Craft(weapon}), and masterwork tools for a total +12 modifier to the check. Let's artificially set the price of a quarterstaff at 1 gp. Follow the steps:1. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp). 2. Find the DC from the table below. 3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials. 4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. 1. 1 gp = 10 sp. Let's go crazy and check by the day. 1 gp = 100 cp. 2. The Craft DC for a simple weapon is 12. 3. Shell out 33 cp for a 6' piece of wood. 4. Check. Let's say he rolls a 3 for a total roll of 15. 15 X 12 = 180 cp. He finishes the item. Now here's the kicker.(If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) So, you've doen 180 cp worth of work on a 100 cp item. That's 1.8 times the price so you've completed it in one 1.8th of the time (1/1.8 = 0.555...) which for an 8 hour work day works out to 4 hours and 27 minutes. So a 1 gp quarterstaff would take just over half as long to make as a 0 gp one. Huh, that's weird. Let's try again. This time, we'll artificially price a quarterstaff at 1 sp. Checking by the day. 1. 1 sp = 10 cp. 2. The DC for a simple weapon is still 12. 3. Wood is going to cost you 3 cp, but we could round 3.333 up to 4, it really doesn't matter. 4. Check. Maybe he only rolled a 2 this time. 14 X 12 = 168 cp. 168 cp of work in an eight hour day on a 10 cp item means you finish it in just under 30 minutes. Third time's a charm. Let's set a fake quarterstaff price of 1 cp. 1. 1 cp = 1 cp. 2. Simple weapons are DC 12. 3. You'll have to pay .33 copper, but I don't think anyone will miss a third of a coin. 4. Check. Say he rolled a 5. 17 x 12 = 204 cp. That's 204 times the price. Looks like he completes the item in one 204th of the time. 8 hours divided by 204 0.0392 hours. Times 60 is 2.35 minutes (or 2 minutes, 21.2 seconds). Let's go crazy. We'll make up a new currency, call it the Canadian Acorn, set up an exchange rate of 10 CA = 1 cp, and set the price of a quarterstaff at one Acorn. Checking by the day. 1. 1 CA = 0.1 cp. 2. Craft DC is holding at 12, sir. 3. Materials will cost you one third of an acorn. You need a really sharp knife, though. 4. Check. A miracle has occured; natural 20. 32 X 12 = 384 cp. 384 cp of work in an eight hour day on a .1 cp item means you finish it in 7.5 seconds. That's a full-round and a standard on an item that literally costs infinitely more than a RAW quarterstaff. Okay, let's review. All kidding aside, let's assume our guy just took 10 all the time (or rolled really, really consistently) and got a check result of 22 every time. If the DC is always 12 and he checks by the day (meaning an 8 hour work day): A 10 gp item would take four days. A 1 gp item would take three hours. A 1 sp item would take eighteen minutes. A 1 cp item would take a minute and 49 seconds. A 1 CA item would take 10.9 seconds. Still think a free item would take all day? I'm not saying that that makes sense or that's how it should work or that it's even remotely physically possible. I'm just saying that that's how it's written. It's just an example of how poorly written the craft rules really are. I first noticed it a little over a year ago and thought it was funny as hell (as did my group) to picture a 1st-level expert causing a tree to explode in a violent flash of simple weapons. :heehee See, he gets it.
Jerks 11-13-05, 10:11 PM	Ahh, but Tyler you've forgotten about the effects that Treats have upon the free-market D&D ecomony. Sure the peasants and go and make an infinite number of clubs, quarterstaves and toothpicks for all the gap tooth villagers, but sooner or later they're going to try this on a treant....and then the whole village is doomed. So to keep the status quote, the peasants of the world in fear of the spirits of the forest restrict their quartestaving practices to no more than one a day.
BjornBSQ 11-13-05, 11:18 PM	Lets see if this makes sense to you… A $0 Q.Staff costs the crafter $0 (0/3=0) And there is 0 sp heck… 0 cp in “Work” so the crafter above taking 10 would make 264 cp of work per day ((10+12)x12) which would be 264% of the work required which means it takes .004 of an 8 hour work period… which is about what? 3 minutes? If he was truly in a hurry he could elect to add 10 to the DC making it 22… Taking 10 again he would finish 484 cp of work ((10+12)x22) which would be 484% of total work or .002 for an 8 hour work period… 1 ½ minutes?
a4igeek 11-13-05, 11:48 PM	Mithral is an amalgam of silver.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-14-05, 04:38 AM	...264 cp of work per day ((10+12)x12) which would be 264% of the work required...? Not even close. 264 copper is 26,400% of 1 copper, not 0. It's actually infinity percent of 0 copper, hence the brokenness.
LifeScience 11-14-05, 11:08 AM	i will let them to see this. Thank you! It's even more complicated then you think... Any Weapon or Armor made in Mithral (or any other Special Material) MUST be Masterwork, but the Masterwork price is included in the price for Mithral given in the DMG. This leads me to believe that the Price in the DMG replaces the MW component price. Crafting Masterwork Arms/Armor requires 2 separate craft checks. One for the Arm/Armor at standard DC, and a Second For the "Masterwork Component" at DC 20. These are coasted out separately (Yes I know it ends up being the same price anyways)... Normal MW Chain Shirt costs 250 gp at the store. 100 for the Shirt and 150 for the MW. The shirt component costs the crafter 33.33 gp, and takes 1000 sp of "Work" at DC 14 (10 + AC). The MW Component costs him 50 gp and takes 1500 sp of "Work" at DC 20 Replacing The MW Price with the MW Mithral Price bumps the cost at shop to 1100 (100 + 1000 for Mithral light MW armor) The shirt cost and DC stays the same but the MW component now costs him 333.33 gp and 10000 sp of "Work" at DC 20. The rolls are made simulations and failure on either by 5+ ruins half the total materials and they must be repurchased at 1/2 material costs. The Crafter CAN take 10 on there checks though it could slow down the crafting but eliminates failure if Skill is high enough. Besides it can always be expedited buy adding 10 to the DC’s
LifeScience 11-14-05, 11:14 AM	i read this, but i don't get what is exact your means do you assume if check by day, it can take less time when i'm crafting a cheap thing? 1. What if you check by the day?Does it still take a week? 2. Nowhere in the Craft rules do they set a minimum time, just an inverse proportion. That's the whole point. 3. It makes no sense that a 1 gp item would take less time to craft than a 0 gp item. Let's do an experiment. We've got a smith with an Int of 14, 5 ranks in Craft (weapon), Skill Focus (Craft(weapon}), and masterwork tools for a total +12 modifier to the check. Let's artificially set the price of a quarterstaff at 1 gp. Follow the steps: 1. 1 gp = 10 sp. Let's go crazy and check by the day. 1 gp = 100 cp. 2. The Craft DC for a simple weapon is 12. 3. Shell out 33 cp for a 6' piece of wood. 4. Check. Let's say he rolls a 3 for a total roll of 15. 15 X 12 = 180 cp. He finishes the item. Now here's the kicker. So, you've doen 180 cp worth of work on a 100 cp item. That's 1.8 times the price so you've completed it in one 1.8th of the time (1/1.8 = 0.555...) which for an 8 hour work day works out to 4 hours and 27 minutes. So a 1 gp quarterstaff would take just over half as long to make as a 0 gp one. Huh, that's weird. Let's try again. This time, we'll artificially price a quarterstaff at 1 sp. Checking by the day. 1. 1 sp = 10 cp. 2. The DC for a simple weapon is still 12. 3. Wood is going to cost you 3 cp, but we could round 3.333 up to 4, it really doesn't matter. 4. Check. Maybe he only rolled a 2 this time. 14 X 12 = 168 cp. 168 cp of work in an eight hour day on a 10 cp item means you finish it in just under 30 minutes. Third time's a charm. Let's set a fake quarterstaff price of 1 cp. 1. 1 cp = 1 cp. 2. Simple weapons are DC 12. 3. You'll have to pay .33 copper, but I don't think anyone will miss a third of a coin. 4. Check. Say he rolled a 5. 17 x 12 = 204 cp. That's 204 times the price. Looks like he completes the item in one 204th of the time. 8 hours divided by 204 0.0392 hours. Times 60 is 2.35 minutes (or 2 minutes, 21.2 seconds). Let's go crazy. We'll make up a new currency, call it the Canadian Acorn, set up an exchange rate of 10 CA = 1 cp, and set the price of a quarterstaff at one Acorn. Checking by the day. 1. 1 CA = 0.1 cp. 2. Craft DC is holding at 12, sir. 3. Materials will cost you one third of an acorn. You need a really sharp knife, though. 4. Check. A miracle has occured; natural 20. 32 X 12 = 384 cp. 384 cp of work in an eight hour day on a .1 cp item means you finish it in 7.5 seconds. That's a full-round and a standard on an item that literally costs infinitely more than a RAW quarterstaff. Okay, let's review. All kidding aside, let's assume our guy just took 10 all the time (or rolled really, really consistently) and got a check result of 22 every time. If the DC is always 12 and he checks by the day (meaning an 8 hour work day): A 10 gp item would take four days. A 1 gp item would take three hours. A 1 sp item would take eighteen minutes. A 1 cp item would take a minute and 49 seconds. A 1 CA item would take 10.9 seconds. Still think a free item would take all day? I'm not saying that that makes sense or that's how it should work or that it's even remotely physically possible. I'm just saying that that's how it's written. It's just an example of how poorly written the craft rules really are. I first noticed it a little over a year ago and thought it was funny as hell (as did my group) to picture a 1st-level expert causing a tree to explode in a violent flash of simple weapons. See, he gets it.
Jerks 11-14-05, 01:06 PM	Yep, basing crafting off of the gold piece standard looks good from a distance, but the cracks really start to show when you zoom in. However I'll cut the designers some slack as the game is about high adventure, not sitting around widdling logs all day. There have been lots of posts about the supposed economy of a D&D world not truly working because by the RAW magic technology would quickly overtake country's attempt at making anything by hand. So it's all a question of whether or not you can ignore these inconsistencies and agree with your players that they will not abuse them or houserule something else in. If you feel you need to houserule it then there are two other established systems you can start from. 1. Unearthed Arcana. This systems turns craft skills into a series of checks, called a complex skill check. One thing that helps is that there is no accelerated crafting. If an item costs more than 1 gp, you make 1 craft check per week of work. If it cost no more than 1 gp, you make 1 craft check per day of work. So even a lowly club will take a good 8 hours of your time to fashion and balance properly. 2. D20 Modern. This is available through the SRD, so go and check it out. This system simply sets the Craft DC and then gives each item a time to craft it based on its complexity. The construction times given are a bit to fast for a D&D game given the power tools that a modern character has access to. I might suggest changing the all construction times given from hours to days or maybe weeks for some really expensive items. Either system avoids the internal inconsistencies of basing construction time off of price. After all, you've got to ask yourself is it truly 10 times harder to make jewelry out of gold than it is from silver?
BjornBSQ 11-14-05, 01:44 PM	yea the craft rules are far from perfect... here's another little loop hole that most people probable fall into... You will probably get more work done with one weekly check then you would with a full weeks worth of daily checks. Reason: How many of us are using Metric (10 Day) Weeks? 99.99% of the time I play we use what were use to... 12 months w/ 4 7 day weeks. A 1 week check of ((10+12)x12) would yeild 264 sp of work while 7 days of the same would yield 184.4 sp of work. ((264 cp x7 days)/10) I wasn't all that impressed w/ Unearthed Arcana's changes. the one thing that I liked, being able to craft while adventuring, was negated by limiting the crafters Lifetime crafting.
Jerks 11-14-05, 01:54 PM	I wasn't all that impressed w/ Unearthed Arcana's changes. the one thing that I liked, being able to craft while adventuring, was negated by limiting the crafters Lifetime crafting. I didn't even reference those crafting rules (I forgot all about them). I was just refering to the little bit about Complex Skill checks on pg. 82 of Unearthed. It's only about two paragraphs in length, but it actually is more flexible and works better than the official rules. If a GM is worried about players knocking out really expensive items at the same rate as lesser items he can just increase the number of successes it takes to finish said item.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-16-05, 02:41 AM	By the RAW, you could pretty much walk up to any tree with your tools and it would instantaneously collapse into a pile of quarterstaves and clubs. Fortunately, no. The craft rules cover the amount of time to make an item; they do not say they cover the amount of time to acquire the raw materials necessary to even make a check in the first place; indeed, the brief discussion of alchemaical crafting suggests (weakly) that such may not be the case. Moreover, "raw materials" for a staff is no more a 60-foot tree than raw materials for a sword is a mountain with an iron mine in it. "Raw materials" for a staff is a cut stick of roughly the correct size and shape...which, not surprisingly, can be used as-is as a staff. (Not a very good staff, but I guess the rules didn't feel like adding a category in between "improvised" and "normal" for weapons.) Of course, you might disagree with either or both interpretations, and, frankly, it's funnier to do so. Those seem to be the most reasonable interpretations of the relevant crafting rules, though, and the result is actually fairly sensible.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-17-05, 12:08 AM	The craft rules cover the amount of time to make an item; they do not say they cover the amount of time to acquire the raw materials necessary to even make a check in the first place; So you're saying the raw materials for a quarterstaff are a quarterstaff? I'll stick with the instant crafting, thank you.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-17-05, 01:43 AM	So you're saying the raw materials for a quarterstaff are a quarterstaff? The raw materials for a quarterstaff certainly aren't a tree; that's just as silly as saying the raw materials for plate armour are a cow and an iron mine. What I am saying is that, when I set aside an afternoon to make a quarterstaff to practice with, I didn't have what I considered "raw materials" when I got to the tree; I only had them once I'd cut it down and hacked out a segment of it that was about the right length. And, guess what? I could have fought reasonably well with that unfinished quarterstaff. Based on my real-world experience, and based on the most reasonable reading of the D&D rules, there's a total lack of problem. But, hey, if you enjoy shoehorning problems into D&D by insisting on odd readings of the rules, be my guest! ;)
WombleHunter 11-17-05, 08:10 AM	The raw materials for a quarterstaff certainly aren't a tree; that's just as silly as saying the raw materials for plate armour are a cow and an iron mine. What I am saying is that, when I set aside an afternoon to make a quarterstaff to practice with, I didn't have what I considered "raw materials" when I got to the tree; I only had them once I'd cut it down and hacked out a segment of it that was about the right length. And, guess what? I could have fought reasonably well with that unfinished quarterstaff. Based on my real-world experience, and based on the most reasonable reading of the D&D rules, there's a total lack of problem. But, hey, if you enjoy shoehorning problems into D&D by insisting on odd readings of the rules, be my guest! ;) How does this apply to a sling, which is a considerably more complex item with the same market price?
mvincent 11-17-05, 11:52 AM	How does this apply to a sling, which is a considerably more complex item with the same market price?I think it's safe to say that the crafting rules (like many things in RPG's) can allow for (or even require) some DM adjudication for differing circumstances. Adding pre-made bits to your item as separate pieces (at full cost but adding no extra time) is reasonable. Gems, special materials, bits of armor etc. could all fall into this category. A person wanting a suit of armor custom made for him may not have to wait the full time, as the armor smith could have reasonably had some parts pre-made. Similarly, making a sling in a heartbeat isn't reasonable, and most people will accept that is just a rules quirk. It doesn't mean the crafting rules are entirely broke, merely that they are general guidelines that weren't meant to cover every circumstance.
WombleHunter 11-17-05, 12:02 PM	I think it's safe to say that the crafting rules (like many things in RPG's) can allow for (or even require) some DM adjudication for differing circumstances. Adding pre-made bits to your item as separate pieces (at full cost but adding no extra time) is reasonable. Gems, special materials, bits of armor etc. could all fall into this category. A person wanting a suit of armor custom made for him may not have to wait the full time, as the armor smith could have reasonably had some parts pre-made. Similarly, making a sling in a heartbeat isn't reasonable, and most people will accept that is just a rules quirk. It doesn't mean the crafting rules are entirely broke, merely that they are general guidelines that weren't meant to cover every circumstance. Absolutely; don't misunderstand my intention. The other poster was equating a good-as-finished item with the finished item in terms of the Craft skill. His example didn't stand up to comparison with other examples within the field, or if it does, I would like to see the explanation. :)
mvincent 11-17-05, 12:55 PM	Absolutely; don't misunderstand my intention.Not at all. Your sling counter-example was a fine one indeed that certainly helped us (or me at least) solidify some thoughts. Thank-you. It was good information.
Arborshate 11-17-05, 02:28 PM	How does this apply to a sling, which is a considerably more complex item with the same market price? You walk up to a cow, reach out at it, and grab a sling! Actually, a sling isn't too complicated. It's basically a strip of leather. You usually want it wide-ish in the middle, to help hold the bullet, and narrow at the ends, to help in your holding it, but that's about it. I think that the idea with the sling is that you can just find a strip of leather. If you want a handle-loop thing, you just need it about twice as long on one side of "center," and just double that around (pre-"center") and tie a knot. The crazy thing is, is a masterwork sling really worth 300gp? I mean, come on, how well can you really make a sling? I mean, I know, most slings are better than what I just described, but still. Also, I vote for having quarterstaffs explode out of trees for the sheer amusement factor.
mvincent 11-17-05, 03:03 PM	is a masterwork sling really worth 300gp? I mean, come on, how well can you really make a sling? Composite sling with gnomish sights, recoilless grip and engraved calligraphy that says “smell what the rock is cooking"
Tyler Do'Urden 11-17-05, 06:49 PM	I think it's safe to say that the crafting rules (like many things in RPG's) can allow for (or even require) some DM adjudication for differing circumstances. Which would be why I said the rules don't have this covered.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-19-05, 01:47 AM	How does this apply to a sling, which is a considerably more complex item with the same market price? I never said it applied to everything, just quarterstaves. :) (Clubs, too, probably.) That being said, D&D slings aren't all that complicated - they're "easy to improvise" - so one could certainly see sling-fixin's - a strip of leather or a tough cloth bag - being hastily pressed into service with no modification. All you really need for a sling is something that can hold a rock while you're swinging it to build up momentum, and then release the rock reliably. That's more demanding than the requirements for a club, or even a quarterstaff, but not necessarily so hard to pick up and immediately do.