Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kemev 04-20-07, 04:41 AM	I have boots of expeditious retreat cost figured for 4,000 gold... (caster level (1) * spell level (1) * 2000 * 2 'cause its 1 min/level) So these boots give me a +30 enhancement bonus to speed, and an according +12 bonus to jump... Is there any reason to ever use boots of striding and springing, which prove a +10 enhancement bonus to speed, and +9 to jump (+5 competence, +4 from speed), and cost 5500?
Merestil Haye 04-20-07, 06:19 AM	There is no reason to, if your DM has allowed the boots. The fact is that the item creation guidelines have been ignored. You price an item by comparing what it can do to other items which can do the same or similar things. Thus if one item increases speed by +10 and another by +30, it is not correct to conclude that the latter is only twice the price of the former. In general, if an item gives a bonus that is three times the effect of another, the first item should be nine times the price of the second. This would suggest a guideline price of 18,000gp for your boots.
Leilond 04-20-07, 06:42 AM	I have boots of expeditious retreat cost figured for 4,000 gold... (caster level (1) * spell level (1) * 2000 * 2 'cause its 1 min/level) So these boots give me a +30 enhancement bonus to speed, and an according +12 bonus to jump... Is there any reason to ever use boots of striding and springing, which prove a +10 enhancement bonus to speed, and +9 to jump (+5 competence, +4 from speed), and cost 5500? The problem is that it wasn't taken in account the fact that the spell is "range: personal" This means that there is noway for a "non arcane caster" to use benefit of the effect of the spell (except "use magic device skill") because "personal" spell cannot be made in a potion You're creating an item that let a fighter use a spell that there's no way to cast on him and I always put a big boost on the price whenever this happens Shield and True Strike are other examples And the most important thing is The rules for creating magic items are GUIDELINES and every time they're used the DM must ananalize the result, confronting the item with existing one, thinking on possible abuse and the decide the final price Quoting SRD Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
Merestil Haye 04-20-07, 08:00 AM	The problem is that it wasn't taken in account the fact that the spell is "range: personal" This means that there is noway for a "non arcane caster" to use benefit of the effect of the spell (except "use magic device skill") because "personal" spell cannot be made in a potionThat's not entirely a valid comment. Longstrider is also a Personal range spell, and the existing Boots allow that spell's speed bonus to be made available to a non-spellcaster. Thus it is entirely reasonable to suggest that boots can be crafted based on Expeditious Retreat. There is no rule or guideline that says a wondrous item has to have an activation method that restricts its use to creatures who can cast the prerequisite spells. The issue is that the OP has shortcircuited almost the entirety of the item pricing guidelines and gone straight to the guideline of very last resort, and then has failed to ask if his proposed price places the item at the correct level of play. To the OP. When trying to price a custom item, the DM (not the player) should follow the following process. If there is an existing item which does the same thing in the same way (same bonus type, for example) the prices of the two items should be the same. If there is an existing item which does the same thing in a different way (and no explicit formula is already given) use the existing item as a base, and modify the price, following precedent if at all possible. If the item is stronger than an existing item, scale the price of the existing item upwards using established precedent. Look for an item that does a similar thing, or functions in a similar way, to get an idea of pricing. If (and only if) there are no existing items that meet any of the criteria above, then resort to the guideline of (spell level * caster level * price factor * adjustment factor if appropriate). Once you have a price, compare it to the Wealth by Level guidelines to see what level of play this pitches it at. As a good rule of thumb, the item would see play at the level where it costs 25% of a character's wealth. Is it worth it at that level, or is it obsolete? As I said above, the Boots of Expeditious Retreat are superior in function to the Boots of Springing and Striding. The price of your Boots should be set bearing in mind the existence of boots that give a bonus to speed of the same type but one third of the boost. Boots of Springing and Striding have two powers; the easiest way to break it down is to assume that the Jump bonus costs 2,500 and the speed bonus 2,000 (with a 50% surcharge for being a second power). It's well established that for enhancement bonuses, increasing the bonus scales quadratically (that is, with the square of the bonus). Thus increasing the bonus by 3 times would suggest the price of these boots should be nine times greater, or 18,000gp. This means they'll come into play at about 12th level.
tarkin 04-20-07, 10:47 AM	Like the others said: The boots you made are too cheap and violate the rules in the DMG. Yeah, I know you THINK you followed the rules, you did not do so. You have misunderstood the pricing system in the core books. The major thing is that what you looked at were specifically described as a guideline, not a set of rules that always creates a legal item. The pricing method you used is the acknoweldge worst one (particularly for first level spells), you are only allowed to use it if no other method (including comparing to existing items) works. No Strict or Loose DM would allow your creation at all. A Power DM might allow them, and if he did allow them, there would be no reason whatsoever to buy the boots found in the DMG, because the ones you made offer more power and are cheaper. Similarly, no you can NOT make the following: unlimited use True Strike items for anything near 2,000 gp. Bracers of Mage Armor +4 for 2,000 gp Unlimited use healing items for 2000 gp Unlimie charm person for 2,000 gp
Kemev 04-20-07, 10:23 PM	Like the others said: The boots you made are too cheap and violate the rules in the DMG. Yeah, I know you THINK you followed the rules, you did not do so. You have misunderstood the pricing system in the core books. The major thing is that what you looked at were specifically described as a guideline, not a set of rules that always creates a legal item. The pricing method you used is the acknoweldge worst one (particularly for first level spells), you are only allowed to use it if no other method (including comparing to existing items) works. No Strict or Loose DM would allow your creation at all. A Power DM might allow them, and if he did allow them, there would be no reason whatsoever to buy the boots found in the DMG, because the ones you made offer more power and are cheaper. Similarly, no you can NOT make the following: unlimited use True Strike items for anything near 2,000 gp. Bracers of Mage Armor +4 for 2,000 gp Unlimited use healing items for 2000 gp Unlimie charm person for 2,000 gp Okay, so the boots are cheap by comparison to the boots of striding and springing. ...But reviewing item creation rules in the DMG, I can't seem to find what rules I've broken. It would be very helpful if someone could find a passage or page number (not just the blurb in the p. 283 sidebar of the DMG), to help me figure out the item cost.
Unholy_King 04-20-07, 11:11 PM	Okay, so the boots are cheap by comparison to the boots of striding and springing. ...But reviewing item creation rules in the DMG, I can't seem to find what rules I've broken. Read Tarkins post again. Specifically, this part: Yeah, I know you THINK you followed the rules, you did not do so. You have misunderstood the pricing system in the core books. The major thing is that what you looked at were specifically described as a guideline, not a set of rules that always creates a legal item. The pricing method you used is the acknoweldge worst one (particularly for first level spells), you are only allowed to use it if no other method (including comparing to existing items) works.
Oliver D'Argent 04-20-07, 11:21 PM	This topic came up in another thread recently. One of the other posters (sorry, I don't recall who) suggested counting each 10 feet of movement bonus as a +1 enhancement bonus and using this formula to calculate the cost: Enhancement bonus squared X 2000 gp. That would make +10 feet of movement cost 2000 gp, +20 feet of movement cost 8000 gp, and +30 feet of movement cost 18,000 gp. You could, I suppose, do "half bonuses" as well with this formula - which would make +15 feet of movement cost 4500 gp and +25 feet of movement cost 12,500 gp. This method seems reasonable to me.
Vaelan 04-21-07, 04:32 AM	But reviewing item creation rules in the DMG, I can't seem to find what rules I've broken. Page 282, sidebar titled Behind the Curtain: Magic Gold Piece Values. I'll go ahead and quote the relevant line. The formulas only provide a starting point.