Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zangalas 09-26-04, 06:29 PM	Suppose I have a character who is dual-wielding, who makes a charge attack against an enemy. Does he get only one attack with his primary weapon, or does he get two attacks, one with his primary weapon and one with his off-hand weapon? Does this change in a surprise round? I'd always ruled it as giving two attacks to a charging dual-wielder, but now that I have a character who can sneak attack, that seems more than a bit crazy. Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated!
UltimateGnome 09-26-04, 06:57 PM	you only get one attack on a charge. Having more than one would make it a full attck. One attack in the suprise round, too.
Egres 09-26-04, 06:58 PM	Suppose I have a character who is dual-wielding, who makes a charge attack against an enemy. Does he get only one attack with his primary weapon, or does he get two attacks, one with his primary weapon and one with his off-hand weapon? Does this change in a surprise round? I'd always ruled it as giving two attacks to a charging dual-wielder, but now that I have a character who can sneak attack, that seems more than a bit crazy. Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated! One attack. From the SRD. Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack
Zangalas 09-26-04, 07:00 PM	Ugh. I knew I was over-analyzing the situation. Thank you for the quick replies!
UltimateGnome 09-26-04, 07:01 PM	You can charge as a standard action only if you are limited to a single action in a round, but you can only move up to your speed not double your speed. Otherwise zombies and those under the slow spell could not charge at all.
DrakaraGM 09-26-04, 07:04 PM	No problem -- the answer is simple. You only get one attack with a charge, which is a which in this case should probably be with the weapon in your primary hand. Unless you have special feats or class features which somehow allow multiple attack as a standard action, the rule is simple -- in order to get multiple attacks for whatever reason (two-weapon fighting, flurry of blows, monster's natural attacks, extra attacks for high BAB, any which way you try), you MUST use a Full Attack action, which is a full round action. See the (3.5) PHB page 143, under Full Round Actions, "Full Attack", where it includes "two-weapon fighting" as one of the ways you get more than one attack and thus must use this action. And note that the only movement you can take during a Full Attack is a 5' step -- which rules out a charge. A Charge is also a Full Round Action -- see (3.5) PHB page 154 and 155. Under "Attacking on a Charge", it immediately says "After moving, you may make a single melee attack." So it is pretty clear -- fighting with two weapons involves using each weapon for separate attacks, so you cannot use both in a charge, you only get a single attack on a charge, and a Charge is not the same as a Full Attack. No matter which part of the question you look deeper into, the definition makes it clear that a two-weapon fighter should NOT be getting two attacks after a charge. This is the primary reason that two-handed weapons are so much more effective than one-handed weapons. On paper, getting 1.5xSTR bonus on damage with a two-handed weapon, compared with getting STR bonus on a primary weapon and .5xSTR bonus on a secondary weapon, is fairly equal, especially since a two-handed weapon often does about the same amount of damage as a one-handed weapon plus a light weapon combined. However, a LOT of the time a character is only getting one attack -- whether it is due to a move and attack (or attack and move), a charge, a surprise round, or whatever -- and every time that occurs, the two-handed weapon wielder is doing higher base damage and adding more STR bonus damage than the two-weapon fighter who is only able to attack with his primary weapon. A one-handed-weapon-and-shield fighter at least has the shield giving him AC whether he is just getting one attack or making a full attack, so that can often make up for the lower damage -- but a two-weapon fighter is often left with his secondary weapon doing nothing useful for him... (And when Power Attack got "improved" for 3.5 that just further enhanced the effectiveness of two-handed weapons compared with one-handed and light weapons.) The main problem with allowing two or more strikes instead of one after a move is indeed the types of attacks that add dice, such as sneak attacks. That is one of the reasons why Haste was changed, too -- in 3.0 you could use your haste action to move up adjacent to a foe, then use your regular turn as a full attack, which might allow you on the first round of full combat (especially if you have high initiative) to go from out of combat to getting a bunch of attacks with sneak attack against a flat-footed opponent... :-) What I might suggest, if you want to give two-weapon fighters a bit more of an edge to help them compete with two-handed weapon wielders, is to allow a character to get that second attack after a move or as part of a charge -- but only the primary (first) attack gets to do sneak attack damage, and only the primary weapon gets the +2 to hit from a charge. But if you do decide to make that a house rule, note that there are other ramifications. First of all that means a monk who can flurry can get two unarmed strikes after moving -- and at higher levels, those are at no penalty to hit. Similarly, monsters with multiple attacks should be able to move and then attack with their primary attack AND one other, using the same restriction, no sneak attack on the second attack and do not get the +2 on it if charging. And you also have to decide how you want to handle secondary weapons which do energy damage -- that generates an extra die of damage on a hit, maybe more on a critical depending on the power, and it is allowed in such a circumstance, makes that magical enchantment a better one for a secondary weapon than it would have been before. So unless you want to deal with all that, you may just want to use the rules as written -- no more "second attacks" after moving for dual-wielding types, because that is not according to the rules -- and accept that two-handed weapon and weapon-and-shield fighting styles are more effective in general than two-weapon fighting, for characters who do not get in there and go for lots of full attacks, but who instead move around a lot... edit: When I started this reply, nobody else had replied yet! I gotta type less, or do it faster... :-)
UltimateGnome 09-26-04, 07:08 PM	that was above and beyond the needed, but good job
DrakaraGM 09-26-04, 07:37 PM	Thanks! Yeah, I AM a wordy sort... :D
Zelphi 09-27-04, 09:27 AM	I think you'll find partial charges are gone in 3.5 Though for my campaigns I let people do a move and attack without the bonuses and penalties. They can often do a double attack with both the off and main but they provoke an AOO from any threatening foes at the start of this attack (which doesn't matter so much if you charge).
Egres 09-27-04, 09:35 AM	I think you'll find partial charges are gone in 3.5 Though for my campaigns I let people do a move and attack without the bonuses and penalties. They can often do a double attack with both the off and main but they provoke an AOO from any threatening foes at the start of this attack (which doesn't matter so much if you charge). From the 3.5 SRD: If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.