A question about Sneak Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question about Sneak Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crowheart
10-20-06, 02:57 PM A simple question really, and something that has been irking at me and my players in several of our games:

Sneak attack allows a character to deal extra dice of damage to a character who is either flanked, or would be denied his dex (such as when the foe is flat-footed), this I understand. But here is what I wonder... The uncanny dodge ability allows a rogue (or barbarian) to retain his dexterity, even when flat-footed or attacked by an invisible opponent. Does this effectively mean that the character is immune to sneak attacks except when flanked (which later they also become immune to)?

My understanding (and my arguement) is that they retain their dexterity, even when flat-footed or normally denied their dex, but are still susuptible to the sneak attack damage since in the sneak attack entry says "anything time they -would- be denied their dex." My follow-up for that is the Feat "Blind-fight" which also renders a target effectively immune to sneak damage by allowing it to retain its dex when attacked by an invisible foe.

To clarify, I believe that a rogue can still sneak attack a barbarian who has retained his dex; the barb's AC is simply higher because he keeps his dexterity, but if the rogue hits, he still adds sneak attack damage. If this is false, then such characters effectively attain an immunity to rogue attacks, which seems totally unfair to me, and the Blind-Fight feat also gives a character an effective immunity to rogues as well.

Any clarification on these rules or comment whould be appreciated.
WinterPsionic
10-20-06, 03:05 PM A simple question really, and something that has been irking at me and my players in several of our games:

Sneak attack allows a character to deal extra dice of damage to a character who is either flanked, or would be denied his dex (such as when the foe is flat-footed), this I understand. But here is what I wonder... The uncanny dodge ability allows a rogue (or barbarian) to retain his dexterity, even when flat-footed or attacked by an invisible opponent. Does this effectively mean that the character is immune to sneak attacks except when flanked (which later they also become immune to)?

My understanding (and my arguement) is that they retain their dexterity, even when flat-footed or normally denied their dex, but are still susuptible to the sneak attack damage since in the sneak attack entry says "anything time they -would- be denied their dex." My follow-up for that is the Feat "Blind-fight" which also renders a target effectively immune to sneak damage by allowing it to retain its dex when attacked by an invisible foe.

To clarify, I believe that a rogue can still sneak attack a barbarian who has retained his dex; the barb's AC is simply higher because he keeps his dexterity, but if the rogue hits, he still adds sneak attack damage. If this is false, then such characters effectively attain an immunity to rogue attacks, which seems totally unfair to me, and the Blind-Fight feat also gives a character an effective immunity to rogues as well.

Any clarification on these rules or comment whould be appreciated.

Not sure of the exact context but in most casese a Rogue of 10th lvl or higher can still sneak attack them....
drunkendrake
10-20-06, 03:05 PM I seem to remember reading somewhere that once a rogue had got that ability, they could only be sneak attacked by characters of a higher rogue level than their own (or ninja level, etc.).

since it says 'would' I would conclude that this meant that they would always deal sneak attack damage, and even if the attacked character retains their dex bonus to AC, since under normal circumstances they 'would' lose said dex bonus.

just how I interpret the rules,

-Drake-
Shadowmind64
10-20-06, 03:10 PM if the barbarian has improved uncanny dodge, he cannot be sneak attacked unless by a rogue of 4 levels higher. its right in the description.
drunkendrake
10-20-06, 03:58 PM if the barbarian has improved uncanny dodge, he cannot be sneak attacked unless by a rogue of 4 levels higher. its right in the description.
that's what I meant, i knew it was something like that.

-Drake-
Crowheart
10-20-06, 04:00 PM if the barbarian has improved uncanny dodge, he cannot be sneak attacked unless by a rogue of 4 levels higher. its right in the description.

Actually, I believe that description refers to if a barbarian can be flanked, not if he can be sneak attacked. That also applies to rogue's with uncanny dodge, for that matter.

My opinion is similiar to drake's. Any other input is appreciated, though.
Nom
10-20-06, 04:10 PM I think you're trying reading way too much into the word would. If while invisible I attack a barbarian with UD, would he be denied his Dex to AC? No, because he has UD. Similarly if he had Blind-fight or anything else that preserves Dex to AC. The slightly odd use of "would" rather than "is" can be explained by the parenthetical comment "(whether the target actually has a Dex bonus to AC or not)".
Vegepygmy
10-20-06, 04:21 PM My understanding (and my arguement) is that they retain their dexterity, even when flat-footed or normally denied their dex, but are still susuptible to the sneak attack damage since in the sneak attack entry says "anything time they -would- be denied their dex."No. A character with uncanny dodge is not susceptible to sneak attacks due to being flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.
Crowheart
10-20-06, 04:24 PM Perhaps, so. But it seems rather unfair for rogues and other sneak attackers if that is truly the case. That means any old joe with a spare feat can make himself immune to sneak attacks (by invisible or hidden foes, that is) by simply selecting "Blind-Fight", which has no prereqs. Rogue ranged attackers are effectively nullified with one feat (seeing as they cannot flank with their chosen weapons). Somehow, that doesn't seem right...

Your input is appreciated, nonetheless.
drunkendrake
10-20-06, 04:43 PM A character with Uncanny Dodge cannot be sneak attacked, EXCEPT by a rogue/ninja/other sneak attacker with a [insert sneakattacking class here] level of at least 4 higher than the Uncanny Dodging class's class levels in that particular class.

sorry if I don't make sense...

-Drake-
Inigo Carmine
10-20-06, 04:56 PM That means any old joe with a spare feat can make himself immune to sneak attacks (by invisible or hidden foes, that is) by simply selecting "Blind-Fight", which has no prereqs. Rogue ranged attackers are effectively nullified with one feat (seeing as they cannot flank with their chosen weapons). Somehow, that doesn't seem right...

Reread blindfight. It only protects you against melee attacks.

Also, it does nothing to protect you while flat footed.
Jackmojo
10-20-06, 06:19 PM A character with Uncanny Dodge cannot be sneak attacked, EXCEPT by a rogue/ninja/other sneak attacker with a [insert sneakattacking class here] level of at least 4 higher than the Uncanny Dodging class's class levels in that particular class.

And that only applies to the flanking senak attacks, they still can't be caught flat-footed.

Jack
drunkendrake
10-20-06, 07:05 PM And that only applies to the flanking senak attacks, they still can't be caught flat-footed.

Jack
I see... sorry, I'm quoting from memory here, I don't have my PHB on me.
Wonton2006
10-21-06, 12:08 AM Alright.
There are two ways to flank: deny Dex bonus or flank.

Flanking does not deny the opponent their Dex bonus. It is simply also stated in the Sneak Attack description. So, for example, if a feat said "when a creature is denied its Dex bonus", flanking would not work to trigger whatever said feat did.

Uncanny dodge allows a character with it to retain his Dex bonus if flat-footed or attacked by an invisible target. Basically, he can react BEFORE he even knows what he's reacting to, he's that good.

Flanking still works when you're facing an opponent with Uncanny Dodge. As does, say, using Hold Person, or making them helpless in some way, or using Fear to make them cower, which specifically states it makes you lose your Dex bonus.

Now we introduce Improved Uncanny Dodge to the equation. A character with Improved Uncanny Dodge also can't be flanked, which means the means of sneak attacking him are very limited (Feinting is one of them). However, a character with Uncanny Dodge can be flanked by someone with 4 more levels in Rogue than they have levels in all classes that give Improved Uncanny Dodge.

So, a Rogue 9 could SA a Barb 5 with Improved Uncanny Dodge.
A Rogue 9 could not SA a Barb 5/Rogue 1 with IUD.
A Rogue 9/Barbarian 1 still could not SA a Barb 5/Rogue 1 with IUD.

I hope that clears things up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crowheart 10-20-06, 02:57 PM	A simple question really, and something that has been irking at me and my players in several of our games: Sneak attack allows a character to deal extra dice of damage to a character who is either flanked, or would be denied his dex (such as when the foe is flat-footed), this I understand. But here is what I wonder... The uncanny dodge ability allows a rogue (or barbarian) to retain his dexterity, even when flat-footed or attacked by an invisible opponent. Does this effectively mean that the character is immune to sneak attacks except when flanked (which later they also become immune to)? My understanding (and my arguement) is that they retain their dexterity, even when flat-footed or normally denied their dex, but are still susuptible to the sneak attack damage since in the sneak attack entry says "anything time they -would- be denied their dex." My follow-up for that is the Feat "Blind-fight" which also renders a target effectively immune to sneak damage by allowing it to retain its dex when attacked by an invisible foe. To clarify, I believe that a rogue can still sneak attack a barbarian who has retained his dex; the barb's AC is simply higher because he keeps his dexterity, but if the rogue hits, he still adds sneak attack damage. If this is false, then such characters effectively attain an immunity to rogue attacks, which seems totally unfair to me, and the Blind-Fight feat also gives a character an effective immunity to rogues as well. Any clarification on these rules or comment whould be appreciated.
WinterPsionic 10-20-06, 03:05 PM	A simple question really, and something that has been irking at me and my players in several of our games: Sneak attack allows a character to deal extra dice of damage to a character who is either flanked, or would be denied his dex (such as when the foe is flat-footed), this I understand. But here is what I wonder... The uncanny dodge ability allows a rogue (or barbarian) to retain his dexterity, even when flat-footed or attacked by an invisible opponent. Does this effectively mean that the character is immune to sneak attacks except when flanked (which later they also become immune to)? My understanding (and my arguement) is that they retain their dexterity, even when flat-footed or normally denied their dex, but are still susuptible to the sneak attack damage since in the sneak attack entry says "anything time they -would- be denied their dex." My follow-up for that is the Feat "Blind-fight" which also renders a target effectively immune to sneak damage by allowing it to retain its dex when attacked by an invisible foe. To clarify, I believe that a rogue can still sneak attack a barbarian who has retained his dex; the barb's AC is simply higher because he keeps his dexterity, but if the rogue hits, he still adds sneak attack damage. If this is false, then such characters effectively attain an immunity to rogue attacks, which seems totally unfair to me, and the Blind-Fight feat also gives a character an effective immunity to rogues as well. Any clarification on these rules or comment whould be appreciated. Not sure of the exact context but in most casese a Rogue of 10th lvl or higher can still sneak attack them....
drunkendrake 10-20-06, 03:05 PM	I seem to remember reading somewhere that once a rogue had got that ability, they could only be sneak attacked by characters of a higher rogue level than their own (or ninja level, etc.). since it says 'would' I would conclude that this meant that they would always deal sneak attack damage, and even if the attacked character retains their dex bonus to AC, since under normal circumstances they 'would' lose said dex bonus. just how I interpret the rules, -Drake-
Shadowmind64 10-20-06, 03:10 PM	if the barbarian has improved uncanny dodge, he cannot be sneak attacked unless by a rogue of 4 levels higher. its right in the description.
drunkendrake 10-20-06, 03:58 PM	if the barbarian has improved uncanny dodge, he cannot be sneak attacked unless by a rogue of 4 levels higher. its right in the description. that's what I meant, i knew it was something like that. -Drake-
Crowheart 10-20-06, 04:00 PM	if the barbarian has improved uncanny dodge, he cannot be sneak attacked unless by a rogue of 4 levels higher. its right in the description. Actually, I believe that description refers to if a barbarian can be flanked, not if he can be sneak attacked. That also applies to rogue's with uncanny dodge, for that matter. My opinion is similiar to drake's. Any other input is appreciated, though.
Nom 10-20-06, 04:10 PM	I think you're trying reading way too much into the word would. If while invisible I attack a barbarian with UD, would he be denied his Dex to AC? No, because he has UD. Similarly if he had Blind-fight or anything else that preserves Dex to AC. The slightly odd use of "would" rather than "is" can be explained by the parenthetical comment "(whether the target actually has a Dex bonus to AC or not)".
Vegepygmy 10-20-06, 04:21 PM	My understanding (and my arguement) is that they retain their dexterity, even when flat-footed or normally denied their dex, but are still susuptible to the sneak attack damage since in the sneak attack entry says "anything time they -would- be denied their dex."No. A character with uncanny dodge is not susceptible to sneak attacks due to being flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.
Crowheart 10-20-06, 04:24 PM	Perhaps, so. But it seems rather unfair for rogues and other sneak attackers if that is truly the case. That means any old joe with a spare feat can make himself immune to sneak attacks (by invisible or hidden foes, that is) by simply selecting "Blind-Fight", which has no prereqs. Rogue ranged attackers are effectively nullified with one feat (seeing as they cannot flank with their chosen weapons). Somehow, that doesn't seem right... Your input is appreciated, nonetheless.
drunkendrake 10-20-06, 04:43 PM	A character with Uncanny Dodge cannot be sneak attacked, EXCEPT by a rogue/ninja/other sneak attacker with a [insert sneakattacking class here] level of at least 4 higher than the Uncanny Dodging class's class levels in that particular class. sorry if I don't make sense... -Drake-
Inigo Carmine 10-20-06, 04:56 PM	That means any old joe with a spare feat can make himself immune to sneak attacks (by invisible or hidden foes, that is) by simply selecting "Blind-Fight", which has no prereqs. Rogue ranged attackers are effectively nullified with one feat (seeing as they cannot flank with their chosen weapons). Somehow, that doesn't seem right... Reread blindfight. It only protects you against melee attacks. Also, it does nothing to protect you while flat footed.
Jackmojo 10-20-06, 06:19 PM	A character with Uncanny Dodge cannot be sneak attacked, EXCEPT by a rogue/ninja/other sneak attacker with a [insert sneakattacking class here] level of at least 4 higher than the Uncanny Dodging class's class levels in that particular class. And that only applies to the flanking senak attacks, they still can't be caught flat-footed. Jack
drunkendrake 10-20-06, 07:05 PM	And that only applies to the flanking senak attacks, they still can't be caught flat-footed. Jack I see... sorry, I'm quoting from memory here, I don't have my PHB on me.
Wonton2006 10-21-06, 12:08 AM	Alright. There are two ways to flank: deny Dex bonus or flank. Flanking does not deny the opponent their Dex bonus. It is simply also stated in the Sneak Attack description. So, for example, if a feat said "when a creature is denied its Dex bonus", flanking would not work to trigger whatever said feat did. Uncanny dodge allows a character with it to retain his Dex bonus if flat-footed or attacked by an invisible target. Basically, he can react BEFORE he even knows what he's reacting to, he's that good. Flanking still works when you're facing an opponent with Uncanny Dodge. As does, say, using Hold Person, or making them helpless in some way, or using Fear to make them cower, which specifically states it makes you lose your Dex bonus. Now we introduce Improved Uncanny Dodge to the equation. A character with Improved Uncanny Dodge also can't be flanked, which means the means of sneak attacking him are very limited (Feinting is one of them). However, a character with Uncanny Dodge can be flanked by someone with 4 more levels in Rogue than they have levels in all classes that give Improved Uncanny Dodge. So, a Rogue 9 could SA a Barb 5 with Improved Uncanny Dodge. A Rogue 9 could not SA a Barb 5/Rogue 1 with IUD. A Rogue 9/Barbarian 1 still could not SA a Barb 5/Rogue 1 with IUD. I hope that clears things up.