A question about vertical reach in combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question about vertical reach in combat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Archangel
06-14-05, 09:12 AM OK my friend and I are dueling Tarrasque against Ancient Wyrm Gold Dragon and we have a problem.
The Dragon is Hovering above the Tarrasque and casting spells. He is at 80 feet and just out of reach. In MM it says Tarrasque is 50 feet high and has 20 feet reach. But under Jump skill it says average Collosal creatures have maximum vertical reach of 128 feet. That is the height this kind of creature can get to before even jumping.
What does that mean in this situation? Can Tarrasque reach the Dragon that is within 128 feet (from the ground) and make his attack or even Full round of attacks or must he jump 10 feet and get only 1 attack?
FeyearthDM
06-14-05, 09:25 PM As DM, I'd rule that the monster description (MM p240) takes precedence over the broad categories of the PHB (PHB p77), so you're right the dragon is out of reach at 80'. A Jump skill check is part of a Move action, so that would rule out a Full Attack option by the tarrasque. I can understand prohibiting a Jump-attack - unless the attacker had Spring Attack feat - but perhaps a Jump-grapple, following the skill description, simply replacing "tree limb" with "dragon limb." :D
Again, as DM I would land on the prohibiting side, as the tarrasque does not come with Spring Attack as "standard eqipment" (although it would make a really nasty bit of "optional equipment"!) so its fighting abilities are not suited to the precise timing I imagine being needed to leap and strike effectively in coordination.
But, I'm a generous DM, and personally would give the leaper a chance; set the Jump DC higher, or apply a penalty to the attack roll equal to the Jump DC. The 'High Jump Distance' table on PHB p77 needs some extrapolation in this scenario, since it clearly assumes a Medium creature - the tarrasque is (using the 'Vertical Reach' table figures) 16 times the size of the base used for 'High Jump Distance.' Multiplying by 16 on the HJD table results in the tarrasque having a base Jump DC of 4 (8 if not using a running start) to jump high enough to reach the hovering dragon. Soooo, the DM could select a higher DC, basing his decision on a number of possibilities, or the DM could apply the base Jump DC of 8 as a penalty to hit. Or he could choose some other option.
In any case, going through these considerations took me several minutes, which during a game means downtime. :weep:
ClementWillowbreaker
06-14-05, 09:32 PM The 128 foot height is how far the Tarrasque can put its forelimbs and amble over an obstacle, not how high it can effectively attack. The Tarrasque just has to use a move action to jump up 10 feet, and attack at its apex. His turn then ends. The dragon gets to do viscious things to him in the air for his turn, then the Tarrasque goes, immediately using a move action to fall down. These are the standard jump rules, btw.
Archangel
06-16-05, 04:15 AM The 'High Jump Distance' table on PHB p77 needs some extrapolation in this scenario, since it clearly assumes a Medium creature - the tarrasque is (using the 'Vertical Reach' table figures) 16 times the size of the base used for 'High Jump Distance.' Multiplying by 16 on the HJD table results in the tarrasque having a base Jump DC of 4 (8 if not using a running start) to jump high enough to reach the hovering dragon.
These are your house rules, right?
ClementWillowbreaker
06-16-05, 11:04 AM Definitely house rules- ogres don't get different Jump DC just for being big- they get more Strength, which makes it easier.
hisnamehere
06-18-05, 05:48 PM So, originally your question was whether to use the PHB collosal size description or the tarrasque's monster description? I would have to rule with the monster description. He is 50ft. tall. To say he can reach 128ft. is simply ludicrous.
So, the dragon is hovering, casting spells? Jump at the pesky insect! It was suggested that it is a move action to jump up and a move action to jump down...I guess 'technically' it would require Spring Attack as you are moving before and after the attack...But I say this is also ludicrous. I have had occassion to jump and attack at the apex of my jump. I call it basketball. I may not get a perfect shot/block at the apex of every one of my jumps, but at least I'm trying. Tarrasque gets a penalty to jump and rake at gold wyrm's stomach. Gold wyrm may even get an AoO in, although that would probably interupt some spell-casting.
The Rules are not the be all end all. If they don't make sense in every situation, write them yourself. The game's no fun if the rules don't permit your skilled characters from doing what you and I (skilled at reading rules not adventuring) do every day without thinking.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archangel 06-14-05, 09:12 AM	OK my friend and I are dueling Tarrasque against Ancient Wyrm Gold Dragon and we have a problem. The Dragon is Hovering above the Tarrasque and casting spells. He is at 80 feet and just out of reach. In MM it says Tarrasque is 50 feet high and has 20 feet reach. But under Jump skill it says average Collosal creatures have maximum vertical reach of 128 feet. That is the height this kind of creature can get to before even jumping. What does that mean in this situation? Can Tarrasque reach the Dragon that is within 128 feet (from the ground) and make his attack or even Full round of attacks or must he jump 10 feet and get only 1 attack?
FeyearthDM 06-14-05, 09:25 PM	As DM, I'd rule that the monster description (MM p240) takes precedence over the broad categories of the PHB (PHB p77), so you're right the dragon is out of reach at 80'. A Jump skill check is part of a Move action, so that would rule out a Full Attack option by the tarrasque. I can understand prohibiting a Jump-attack - unless the attacker had Spring Attack feat - but perhaps a Jump-grapple, following the skill description, simply replacing "tree limb" with "dragon limb." :D Again, as DM I would land on the prohibiting side, as the tarrasque does not come with Spring Attack as "standard eqipment" (although it would make a really nasty bit of "optional equipment"!) so its fighting abilities are not suited to the precise timing I imagine being needed to leap and strike effectively in coordination. But, I'm a generous DM, and personally would give the leaper a chance; set the Jump DC higher, or apply a penalty to the attack roll equal to the Jump DC. The 'High Jump Distance' table on PHB p77 needs some extrapolation in this scenario, since it clearly assumes a Medium creature - the tarrasque is (using the 'Vertical Reach' table figures) 16 times the size of the base used for 'High Jump Distance.' Multiplying by 16 on the HJD table results in the tarrasque having a base Jump DC of 4 (8 if not using a running start) to jump high enough to reach the hovering dragon. Soooo, the DM could select a higher DC, basing his decision on a number of possibilities, or the DM could apply the base Jump DC of 8 as a penalty to hit. Or he could choose some other option. In any case, going through these considerations took me several minutes, which during a game means downtime. :weep:
ClementWillowbreaker 06-14-05, 09:32 PM	The 128 foot height is how far the Tarrasque can put its forelimbs and amble over an obstacle, not how high it can effectively attack. The Tarrasque just has to use a move action to jump up 10 feet, and attack at its apex. His turn then ends. The dragon gets to do viscious things to him in the air for his turn, then the Tarrasque goes, immediately using a move action to fall down. These are the standard jump rules, btw.
Archangel 06-16-05, 04:15 AM	The 'High Jump Distance' table on PHB p77 needs some extrapolation in this scenario, since it clearly assumes a Medium creature - the tarrasque is (using the 'Vertical Reach' table figures) 16 times the size of the base used for 'High Jump Distance.' Multiplying by 16 on the HJD table results in the tarrasque having a base Jump DC of 4 (8 if not using a running start) to jump high enough to reach the hovering dragon. These are your house rules, right?
ClementWillowbreaker 06-16-05, 11:04 AM	Definitely house rules- ogres don't get different Jump DC just for being big- they get more Strength, which makes it easier.
hisnamehere 06-18-05, 05:48 PM	So, originally your question was whether to use the PHB collosal size description or the tarrasque's monster description? I would have to rule with the monster description. He is 50ft. tall. To say he can reach 128ft. is simply ludicrous. So, the dragon is hovering, casting spells? Jump at the pesky insect! It was suggested that it is a move action to jump up and a move action to jump down...I guess 'technically' it would require Spring Attack as you are moving before and after the attack...But I say this is also ludicrous. I have had occassion to jump and attack at the apex of my jump. I call it basketball. I may not get a perfect shot/block at the apex of every one of my jumps, but at least I'm trying. Tarrasque gets a penalty to jump and rake at gold wyrm's stomach. Gold wyrm may even get an AoO in, although that would probably interupt some spell-casting. The Rules are not the be all end all. If they don't make sense in every situation, write them yourself. The game's no fun if the rules don't permit your skilled characters from doing what you and I (skilled at reading rules not adventuring) do every day without thinking.