A question of readied actions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question of readied actions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lion21
06-09-05, 12:48 PM Hi folks, this Lion here. In the Classes and prestige Classes board, I am running a Fighters challenge. Here's the dilemma: A monk character has prepared a ready action to move if attacked by tumbling directly behind a enemy. Would this mean then, that by having done so, that the enemies ranged attacks would strike nothing (since the target has moved) and provoke an AoO from the monk who is now behind the enemy?

I am of the opinion that since ranged attacks are being employed, and that they specifically target the character (instead of the way a fireball is aimed at an area) that the enemy still manages to attack the character, but also provokes an AoO?

What do you think?
Centauri
06-09-05, 12:49 PM I've been following the Fighter's Challenge. Here's what the SRD says:

"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

So, he'd still attack, but would take the AoO.
tarkin
06-09-05, 12:51 PM No.

Readied actions are not fast enough to be done after an attack has initiatied but before they are completed.

Similarly, the monk can not wait till after the fighter has fired the arrow and take a 5ft step to the left so the arrow misses him.

You can act BEFORE they attack, not in the middle. In which case, your action is completed before they even begin, freeing them to change targets/actions.

Also, behind is meaningless, say next to.

-------

So instead, what should happen is this.

Fighter begins to aim at monk.

Monk activates readied action, tumbles next to fighter.

Fighter, not having acted at all yet, is free to drop his bow (free action), draw a weapon and attack the Monk.
Centauri
06-09-05, 01:02 PM Fighter, not having acted at all yet, is free to drop his bow (free action), draw a weapon and attack the Monk. I'm not so sure about that. The section I quoted says that he continues his actions. If the action was to make an attack, then the attack should continue. I don't think he can change actions and draw another weapon.
Thorak
06-09-05, 01:05 PM So instead, what should happen is this.

Fighter begins to aim at monk.

Monk activates readied action, tumbles next to fighter.

Fighter, not having acted at all yet, is free to drop his bow (free action), draw a weapon and attack the Monk.
[quote]
Or, better yet, take a 5' step back, and unleash a full volley of arrows right in the monk's face. Assuming it's a primarily ranged Fighter. If it's a melee Fighter, and he was just using a cheap bow until the monk closed, then the monk made a very, very large error, and is about to pay dearly, when he draws his melee weapon and turns said monk into hamburger.
Tsuul
06-09-05, 01:24 PM The action he can't change is the attack action. How he goes through with it is changeable. The fighter can make one attack and move afterward, or the fighter can take a full attack action. The fighter is even allowed to take a 5' step between any attack. Since it doesn't seem to break up his attack action, it is allowed before and after as well.

The monk made a big miscalculation.
Tsuul
06-09-05, 01:31 PM Fighter, not having acted at all yet, is free to drop his bow (free action), draw a weapon and attack the Monk.
If the fighter has quickdraw, I would allow him to change weapons. Otherwise the fighter would have to voluntarily end his attack action( by making no attacks) then finish his round with a move action to draw. Which is none too bright considering his better options.
redkite
06-09-05, 06:55 PM I dont agree with the ability to change the triggering actions after the readied actions are completed.

Situation: A fighter next to a mage readies an attack/move against the spellcaster if they start to cast a spell. The mage steps back 5ft and starts to cast. Fighter moves up and takes readied action. Now according to some of the views as stated here, the fighter moves/attack before the mage does his spell casting, so after taking the blow (and assuming the caster survives), the mage could continue to move back further (oops, since I can change my action since the next one hasn't started yet, I will continue the 5ft step into a full move) and cast their spell unimpeded. Or they can just choose to not cast the spell (even though that is what triggers the readied action) to prevent the AoO and do something else.

That makes no sense. The action must start to trigger the readied action. The turn-based D&D rules state that the readied action gets to go first, but that does not mean that the triggering action can now be changed. It can be adjusted somewhat (if the target of a ranged attack readied a move action, the ranged attack is made where the target moved to instead of where it initially started-no automiss here unless the target jumps behind full cover), but not changed.
Merestil Haye
06-09-05, 10:42 PM I dont agree with the ability to change the triggering actions after the readied actions are completed.

Situation: A fighter next to a mage readies an attack/move against the spellcaster if they start to cast a spell. The mage steps back 5ft and starts to cast. Fighter moves up and takes readied action. Now according to some of the views as stated here, the fighter moves/attack before the mage does his spell casting, so after taking the blow (and assuming the caster survives), the mage could continue to move back further (oops, since I can change my action since the next one hasn't started yet, I will continue the 5ft step into a full move) and cast their spell unimpeded. (snip)Actually you cannot make this decision. In order for the ready action to trigger, you must have started casting the spell. Since you have started to cast the spell, your two choices are to continue (which requires a concentration check) or abandon the spell.

There is also the problem that you can only move once in a round, and you started your round by taking a 5' step, thus cannot move again this round.
Nom
06-09-05, 11:20 PM At some point, we need to consider whether certain applications of the rules break what the rules are trying to model.

For example, a monk readies an action to move to close range if a caster begins casting a spell. The caster does so, and the monk moves. I would not then allow the monk to make an AoO on the caster. Unlike normal resolution, the monk was not already moving towards the caster. Instead, the monk was waiting for the caster and thus cannot have moved before the caster started casting. The monk may get there before the action is resolved, but the time he would normally have spent taking advantage of the opening has been spent moving.

Otherwise, you allow the monk to double-dip, as he can take an AoO on someone that he is not currently threatening. He gets to act out-of-turn, but still gain all the advantages of acting in-turn.

Generalising, I would rule that if a single event that could provoke an AoO also triggers a readied action, the AoO must be resolved first. This makes sense from a modelling perspective, as an AoO models exploiting an opportunity created by the defender, while a readied action involves waiting for a particular event to occur and then acting. This also prevents the (IMO unfair) situation of a character taking a provoking action in a "safe" location, triggering a readied action that changes the situation to "unsafe", and then being told "this guy can take a retrospective AoO on you".

Note that the most common AoO / ready question is not covered by this, because it is not a conflict. A character who charges a readied attacker with a reach weapon will suffer the readied action (for double damage) when he enters the target square, but provoke an AoO when he leaves. The AoO is a separate event, and also one the character would have provoked anyway.

In the case of the example above - a ranged full-attack - the first attack (that triggered the readied action) would not provoke an AoO from the moving monk. If the fighter chose to take a subsequent attack or to move - both separate, subsequent events - then these would provoke AoOs. Of course, if he has QuickDraw he can discard the bow, draw a melee weapon, and use that for any remaining attacks.

Note that much of the above is my judgement on how the rules ought to work. I'm not aware of any official clarification on how AoOs and readied actions interact.
redkite
06-09-05, 11:51 PM Merestil, thats my point. But earlier posters said that the readied action occurs before the triggering action, therefore the triggering action can be changed (ie full attack with melee weapon instead of ranged attack). My example was showing why I think the triggering action is locked (no change allowed). Otherwise that mage situation is possible.

I think Nom is closer to the truth of the matter. But keep in mind that a badly worded (or badly/mistakenly chosen) readied action may not trigger, so there is an element of chance that needs to be balanced out as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lion21 06-09-05, 12:48 PM	Hi folks, this Lion here. In the Classes and prestige Classes board, I am running a Fighters challenge. Here's the dilemma: A monk character has prepared a ready action to move if attacked by tumbling directly behind a enemy. Would this mean then, that by having done so, that the enemies ranged attacks would strike nothing (since the target has moved) and provoke an AoO from the monk who is now behind the enemy? I am of the opinion that since ranged attacks are being employed, and that they specifically target the character (instead of the way a fireball is aimed at an area) that the enemy still manages to attack the character, but also provokes an AoO? What do you think?
Centauri 06-09-05, 12:49 PM	I've been following the Fighter's Challenge. Here's what the SRD says: "Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action." So, he'd still attack, but would take the AoO.
tarkin 06-09-05, 12:51 PM	No. Readied actions are not fast enough to be done after an attack has initiatied but before they are completed. Similarly, the monk can not wait till after the fighter has fired the arrow and take a 5ft step to the left so the arrow misses him. You can act BEFORE they attack, not in the middle. In which case, your action is completed before they even begin, freeing them to change targets/actions. Also, behind is meaningless, say next to. ------- So instead, what should happen is this. Fighter begins to aim at monk. Monk activates readied action, tumbles next to fighter. Fighter, not having acted at all yet, is free to drop his bow (free action), draw a weapon and attack the Monk.
Centauri 06-09-05, 01:02 PM	Fighter, not having acted at all yet, is free to drop his bow (free action), draw a weapon and attack the Monk. I'm not so sure about that. The section I quoted says that he continues his actions. If the action was to make an attack, then the attack should continue. I don't think he can change actions and draw another weapon.
Thorak 06-09-05, 01:05 PM	So instead, what should happen is this. Fighter begins to aim at monk. Monk activates readied action, tumbles next to fighter. Fighter, not having acted at all yet, is free to drop his bow (free action), draw a weapon and attack the Monk. [quote] Or, better yet, take a 5' step back, and unleash a full volley of arrows right in the monk's face. Assuming it's a primarily ranged Fighter. If it's a melee Fighter, and he was just using a cheap bow until the monk closed, then the monk made a very, very large error, and is about to pay dearly, when he draws his melee weapon and turns said monk into hamburger.
Tsuul 06-09-05, 01:24 PM	The action he can't change is the attack action. How he goes through with it is changeable. The fighter can make one attack and move afterward, or the fighter can take a full attack action. The fighter is even allowed to take a 5' step between any attack. Since it doesn't seem to break up his attack action, it is allowed before and after as well. The monk made a big miscalculation.
Tsuul 06-09-05, 01:31 PM	Fighter, not having acted at all yet, is free to drop his bow (free action), draw a weapon and attack the Monk. If the fighter has quickdraw, I would allow him to change weapons. Otherwise the fighter would have to voluntarily end his attack action( by making no attacks) then finish his round with a move action to draw. Which is none too bright considering his better options.
redkite 06-09-05, 06:55 PM	I dont agree with the ability to change the triggering actions after the readied actions are completed. Situation: A fighter next to a mage readies an attack/move against the spellcaster if they start to cast a spell. The mage steps back 5ft and starts to cast. Fighter moves up and takes readied action. Now according to some of the views as stated here, the fighter moves/attack before the mage does his spell casting, so after taking the blow (and assuming the caster survives), the mage could continue to move back further (oops, since I can change my action since the next one hasn't started yet, I will continue the 5ft step into a full move) and cast their spell unimpeded. Or they can just choose to not cast the spell (even though that is what triggers the readied action) to prevent the AoO and do something else. That makes no sense. The action must start to trigger the readied action. The turn-based D&D rules state that the readied action gets to go first, but that does not mean that the triggering action can now be changed. It can be adjusted somewhat (if the target of a ranged attack readied a move action, the ranged attack is made where the target moved to instead of where it initially started-no automiss here unless the target jumps behind full cover), but not changed.
Merestil Haye 06-09-05, 10:42 PM	I dont agree with the ability to change the triggering actions after the readied actions are completed. Situation: A fighter next to a mage readies an attack/move against the spellcaster if they start to cast a spell. The mage steps back 5ft and starts to cast. Fighter moves up and takes readied action. Now according to some of the views as stated here, the fighter moves/attack before the mage does his spell casting, so after taking the blow (and assuming the caster survives), the mage could continue to move back further (oops, since I can change my action since the next one hasn't started yet, I will continue the 5ft step into a full move) and cast their spell unimpeded. (snip)Actually you cannot make this decision. In order for the ready action to trigger, you must have started casting the spell. Since you have started to cast the spell, your two choices are to continue (which requires a concentration check) or abandon the spell. There is also the problem that you can only move once in a round, and you started your round by taking a 5' step, thus cannot move again this round.
Nom 06-09-05, 11:20 PM	At some point, we need to consider whether certain applications of the rules break what the rules are trying to model. For example, a monk readies an action to move to close range if a caster begins casting a spell. The caster does so, and the monk moves. I would not then allow the monk to make an AoO on the caster. Unlike normal resolution, the monk was not already moving towards the caster. Instead, the monk was waiting for the caster and thus cannot have moved before the caster started casting. The monk may get there before the action is resolved, but the time he would normally have spent taking advantage of the opening has been spent moving. Otherwise, you allow the monk to double-dip, as he can take an AoO on someone that he is not currently threatening. He gets to act out-of-turn, but still gain all the advantages of acting in-turn. Generalising, I would rule that if a single event that could provoke an AoO also triggers a readied action, the AoO must be resolved first. This makes sense from a modelling perspective, as an AoO models exploiting an opportunity created by the defender, while a readied action involves waiting for a particular event to occur and then acting. This also prevents the (IMO unfair) situation of a character taking a provoking action in a "safe" location, triggering a readied action that changes the situation to "unsafe", and then being told "this guy can take a retrospective AoO on you". Note that the most common AoO / ready question is not covered by this, because it is not a conflict. A character who charges a readied attacker with a reach weapon will suffer the readied action (for double damage) when he enters the target square, but provoke an AoO when he leaves. The AoO is a separate event, and also one the character would have provoked anyway. In the case of the example above - a ranged full-attack - the first attack (that triggered the readied action) would not provoke an AoO from the moving monk. If the fighter chose to take a subsequent attack or to move - both separate, subsequent events - then these would provoke AoOs. Of course, if he has QuickDraw he can discard the bow, draw a melee weapon, and use that for any remaining attacks. Note that much of the above is my judgement on how the rules ought to work. I'm not aware of any official clarification on how AoOs and readied actions interact.
redkite 06-09-05, 11:51 PM	Merestil, thats my point. But earlier posters said that the readied action occurs before the triggering action, therefore the triggering action can be changed (ie full attack with melee weapon instead of ranged attack). My example was showing why I think the triggering action is locked (no change allowed). Otherwise that mage situation is possible. I think Nom is closer to the truth of the matter. But keep in mind that a badly worded (or badly/mistakenly chosen) readied action may not trigger, so there is an element of chance that needs to be balanced out as well.