A Ranger Spring Attacking [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Ranger Spring Attacking [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ka'el
04-22-07, 02:56 PM Hey, just a syupid question I've been breaking my head over. I'm a Level 7 Ranger, with the Two Weapon Style. I can make 2 attacks with my main weapon and one with my off hand, in a full round attack. I have the Spring Attack feat, and my DM rules that I can move, make one attack, and then attack. But the way I see it you can move, make an attack action (standard action), then move. I know that experienced characters can only use their extra attacks only if they dont move (the +9/+4 ones you get on one weapon).

But, my of hand attack doesnt really count as on of those extra attacks right? I know that I'm wrong but please tell me I'm not.

Because, if so. Why the hell did I take the spring attack feat?
Masterfulks
04-22-07, 03:06 PM Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

Spring attack lets you move up, hit someone, then get out of their range before your turn is over.

If you are fighting an opponent with many attacks, this would keep you from having to stand up to a full around of attacks.
T3hB4k4
04-22-07, 03:17 PM I've looked at my PHB and the Spring Attack description does say an attack action not a single attack.

In regard to the Two Weapon Fighting deal I would say if one is allowed to make 2 attacks (1 main hand 1 off hand) in a regular attack action then as a Spring attack you would get both the main and offhand attacks as well, so yes actually I believe you are correct, however the language in TWF description is ambiguous with regard to whether the attack as granted as part of a standard attack action, so with any rules disagreement you're free to quote RAW but the DM's ruling will stand

Now if your attack bonus would grant 2 attacks (BAB +6/+1) then you can only make the two attacks with your main hand if you take the full attack action which does not allow you to move even with Spring Attack.
Ka'el
04-22-07, 03:25 PM Bah... well my DM is a pretty strict guy, dont think I can convince him then...
Anyway, I'm pretty sure we'll be fighting a White Dragon soon, and a big one at that. So I'm conjuring up tactics.

I dont think a dragon has a lot of reach attacks, so if I just pick up an elven courtblade (greatsword) and then spring attack in and out I should at least stay out of the way of the rending claws and teeth. Or should I just go in and rip it appart with my two weapons? I got dragons as a double favored enemy so I should be able to F him up pretty bad. But then again, I dont wanna die...
draconic_swine
04-22-07, 03:29 PM Your DM is wrong - with spring attack you can move, make an attack, and then move again. Your total movement in the round can't exceed your speed. I don't know where your DM is getting the "move, make one attack, then attack" from. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack):

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

You move, attack, and then complete your movement. Nothing less, nothing more.

Also, you only get one attack from one of your weapons. You can't use both weapons, since attacking with two weapons requires a full attack, which is definitely not what spring attack allows you to do. From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack)

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

As to why you took spring attack, who knows? Unless you need it as a prerequisite for something, it's a pretty suboptimal feat.
Johannixx
04-22-07, 04:42 PM Spring Attack is best used with a reach weapon. That way, if your opponent closes to 5' with you, you can tumble back 5', stab him, then continue your movement so that he provokes an AoO when he closes to attack again.
Shadowfax7
04-22-07, 06:40 PM There is a feat called I believe Dual Strike which lets you make 1 attack with your main hand and 1 attack with your off-hand with a standard action, this could work with Spring Attack.

I have also seen improved feats for the Spring Attack chain which allow you to use your add'l iterative attacks with Spring Attack.
AAB
04-22-07, 07:34 PM yup, those feats are in Complete Adventurer.
Vaelan
04-22-07, 07:54 PM There is a feat called I believe Dual Strike which lets you make 1 attack with your main hand and 1 attack with your off-hand with a standard action, this could work with Spring Attack.
Unfortunately, it doesn't. Spring Attack limits the action you can take to an attack action while activating Dual Strike is a standard action. Fly-by Attack, on the other hand, lets you take any standard action.

What you really want is the Tempest class from Complete Adventurer.
Plothos
04-22-07, 10:09 PM As to why you took spring attack, who knows? Unless you need it as a prerequisite for something, it's a pretty suboptimal feat.I dunno. (Depending on your reading of the RAW) there's a nice feature of spring attack that gets overlooked.

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate.Now, I know a lot of people might not read it this way, but as far as I can tell, you just ignore AoO's from your target for movement, meaning you don't have to tumble. I actually don't like that at all, but to me is just how one needs to read the feat description. Especially considering the prereqs, it doesn't seem all that overpowered, and is fairly useful.

Thus, if you don't have much tumble or need to move quickly, the not provoking thing is pretty sweet. Take, for instance, a fight against a dragon, which generally has reach with at least its bite once it gets large enough. You can move in, smack it, and move away again even with a non-reach weapon and he gets no AoO's. If you can manage to duck into an area he needs to squeeze into to follow you, you're in good shape.

But check with your DM to be sure he reads it this way. I know people who don't.
draconic_swine
04-22-07, 10:31 PM Yeah, you definitely can't combine dual strike and spring attack. The attack action might be a standard action, but that doesn't mean you can perform any standard action in a spring attack.

Plothos: The situation you describe makes sense to me, and it is indeed a viable tactic for someone with spring attack to do. It's a pretty specific situation, however, so while it improves the use of spring attack, it remains a pretty suboptimal feat.
Lael
04-23-07, 12:00 AM The only advatage of Dual strike I see is allowing you to deal full damage with your off hand, rather than not reduced damage with your off hand.
Plothos
04-23-07, 12:43 AM Plothos: The situation you describe makes sense to me, and it is indeed a viable tactic for someone with spring attack to do. It's a pretty specific situation, however, so while it improves the use of spring attack, it remains a pretty suboptimal feat.I DM for a group in which the party barbarian has found the feat very useful in a number of circumstances. He took it mostly on the way to whirlwind, but he's used SA far far more. He especially likes to jump in to take a swing at somebody, then dash into position to defend a downed comrade, or the party mage. It's not a feat that gets a LOT of use, but when it's used you really stop and say, "Huh, that's convenient." Not the best feat in the game, by any stretch, but I think it's pretty nice.
Nom
04-23-07, 02:08 AM I'm a Level 7 Ranger, with the Two Weapon Style. I can make 2 attacks with my main weapon and one with my off hand, in a full round attack.Your level 6 Combat Style feat grants you Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which grants a second off hand attack (at -5). So you get two with your main weapon and two with your off hand weapon.

You still can only make one attack while Sprint Attacking, though.
Necromas
04-23-07, 03:12 AM Claw Gloves from the magic item compendium cost 6,000gp (afair) and count as +1 punching daggers that let you attack with both of them during a charge or spring attack.

If you don't like claws (that function as punching daggers), extrapolate and make different weapons with the same properties and propose em to your DM.
Kemev
04-23-07, 03:22 AM Unfortunately, it doesn't. Spring Attack limits the action you can take to an attack action while activating Dual Strike is a standard action. Fly-by Attack, on the other hand, lets you take any standard action.

What you really want is the Tempest class from Complete Adventurer.

Yes. The Tempest really is the answer to the problem you've posed. If you want to be able to attack with both your weapons, ask your DM if you can adjust your character to incorporate it.

Also, if you can use PHB II in your campaign, definitely go for Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz when you get the BAB. By the time you get them, you'll be able to make 4 attacks on a spring attack (assuming you go tempest). It'll turn your spring attacking from near-worthless to reasonably fair.

Assuming you can get some reach (enlarge person or expansion are fairly painless) you can dash in, make your 4 attacks, and move back to cover the rest of the party with AoOs.
WinDReiN
04-23-07, 07:32 AM You can make disarm, sunder or trip attacks during your spring attack, or use your manouvers which require a swift action if you decide to multiclass in a class that can use them.
Ulandorf_TheBlue
04-23-07, 07:54 AM There's also Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz to look forward to...and they specifically say that you provoke no AoOs during the movement on those feats so maybe Plothos is right about SA.
DrMorganes
04-23-07, 08:12 AM You can make disarm, sunder or trip attacks during your spring attack, or use your manouvers which require a swift action if you decide to multiclass in a class that can use them.

Right. All of which are special types of attacks, each requiring a standard action to use. Still, thanks for pointing it out WinDReiN. Folks occasionally forget things like Disarm, Trip, and Sunder can be important tactics when facing a more powerful foe!
WinDReiN
04-23-07, 10:52 AM All of which are special types of attacks, each requiring a standard action to use.

I'm, not sure if you agree or disagree with me?

Spring attack is used when making a attack action with a melee weapon, which is a standard action, but Spring attack doesn't allow other kind of standard actions.
Disarm, Sunder & Trip special attacks are made as a melee attack, and can be made only with weapons if combined with SA; not as a unarmed melee attack since SA requires a melee weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ka'el 04-22-07, 02:56 PM	Hey, just a syupid question I've been breaking my head over. I'm a Level 7 Ranger, with the Two Weapon Style. I can make 2 attacks with my main weapon and one with my off hand, in a full round attack. I have the Spring Attack feat, and my DM rules that I can move, make one attack, and then attack. But the way I see it you can move, make an attack action (standard action), then move. I know that experienced characters can only use their extra attacks only if they dont move (the +9/+4 ones you get on one weapon). But, my of hand attack doesnt really count as on of those extra attacks right? I know that I'm wrong but please tell me I'm not. Because, if so. Why the hell did I take the spring attack feat?
Masterfulks 04-22-07, 03:06 PM	Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. Spring attack lets you move up, hit someone, then get out of their range before your turn is over. If you are fighting an opponent with many attacks, this would keep you from having to stand up to a full around of attacks.
T3hB4k4 04-22-07, 03:17 PM	I've looked at my PHB and the Spring Attack description does say an attack action not a single attack. In regard to the Two Weapon Fighting deal I would say if one is allowed to make 2 attacks (1 main hand 1 off hand) in a regular attack action then as a Spring attack you would get both the main and offhand attacks as well, so yes actually I believe you are correct, however the language in TWF description is ambiguous with regard to whether the attack as granted as part of a standard attack action, so with any rules disagreement you're free to quote RAW but the DM's ruling will stand Now if your attack bonus would grant 2 attacks (BAB +6/+1) then you can only make the two attacks with your main hand if you take the full attack action which does not allow you to move even with Spring Attack.
Ka'el 04-22-07, 03:25 PM	Bah... well my DM is a pretty strict guy, dont think I can convince him then... Anyway, I'm pretty sure we'll be fighting a White Dragon soon, and a big one at that. So I'm conjuring up tactics. I dont think a dragon has a lot of reach attacks, so if I just pick up an elven courtblade (greatsword) and then spring attack in and out I should at least stay out of the way of the rending claws and teeth. Or should I just go in and rip it appart with my two weapons? I got dragons as a double favored enemy so I should be able to F him up pretty bad. But then again, I dont wanna die...
draconic_swine 04-22-07, 03:29 PM	Your DM is wrong - with spring attack you can move, make an attack, and then move again. Your total movement in the round can't exceed your speed. I don't know where your DM is getting the "move, make one attack, then attack" from. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack): When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. You move, attack, and then complete your movement. Nothing less, nothing more. Also, you only get one attack from one of your weapons. You can't use both weapons, since attacking with two weapons requires a full attack, which is definitely not what spring attack allows you to do. From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. As to why you took spring attack, who knows? Unless you need it as a prerequisite for something, it's a pretty suboptimal feat.
Johannixx 04-22-07, 04:42 PM	Spring Attack is best used with a reach weapon. That way, if your opponent closes to 5' with you, you can tumble back 5', stab him, then continue your movement so that he provokes an AoO when he closes to attack again.
Shadowfax7 04-22-07, 06:40 PM	There is a feat called I believe Dual Strike which lets you make 1 attack with your main hand and 1 attack with your off-hand with a standard action, this could work with Spring Attack. I have also seen improved feats for the Spring Attack chain which allow you to use your add'l iterative attacks with Spring Attack.
AAB 04-22-07, 07:34 PM	yup, those feats are in Complete Adventurer.
Vaelan 04-22-07, 07:54 PM	There is a feat called I believe Dual Strike which lets you make 1 attack with your main hand and 1 attack with your off-hand with a standard action, this could work with Spring Attack. Unfortunately, it doesn't. Spring Attack limits the action you can take to an attack action while activating Dual Strike is a standard action. Fly-by Attack, on the other hand, lets you take any standard action. What you really want is the Tempest class from Complete Adventurer.
Plothos 04-22-07, 10:09 PM	As to why you took spring attack, who knows? Unless you need it as a prerequisite for something, it's a pretty suboptimal feat.I dunno. (Depending on your reading of the RAW) there's a nice feature of spring attack that gets overlooked. When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate.Now, I know a lot of people might not read it this way, but as far as I can tell, you just ignore AoO's from your target for movement, meaning you don't have to tumble. I actually don't like that at all, but to me is just how one needs to read the feat description. Especially considering the prereqs, it doesn't seem all that overpowered, and is fairly useful. Thus, if you don't have much tumble or need to move quickly, the not provoking thing is pretty sweet. Take, for instance, a fight against a dragon, which generally has reach with at least its bite once it gets large enough. You can move in, smack it, and move away again even with a non-reach weapon and he gets no AoO's. If you can manage to duck into an area he needs to squeeze into to follow you, you're in good shape. But check with your DM to be sure he reads it this way. I know people who don't.
draconic_swine 04-22-07, 10:31 PM	Yeah, you definitely can't combine dual strike and spring attack. The attack action might be a standard action, but that doesn't mean you can perform any standard action in a spring attack. Plothos: The situation you describe makes sense to me, and it is indeed a viable tactic for someone with spring attack to do. It's a pretty specific situation, however, so while it improves the use of spring attack, it remains a pretty suboptimal feat.
Lael 04-23-07, 12:00 AM	The only advatage of Dual strike I see is allowing you to deal full damage with your off hand, rather than not reduced damage with your off hand.
Plothos 04-23-07, 12:43 AM	Plothos: The situation you describe makes sense to me, and it is indeed a viable tactic for someone with spring attack to do. It's a pretty specific situation, however, so while it improves the use of spring attack, it remains a pretty suboptimal feat.I DM for a group in which the party barbarian has found the feat very useful in a number of circumstances. He took it mostly on the way to whirlwind, but he's used SA far far more. He especially likes to jump in to take a swing at somebody, then dash into position to defend a downed comrade, or the party mage. It's not a feat that gets a LOT of use, but when it's used you really stop and say, "Huh, that's convenient." Not the best feat in the game, by any stretch, but I think it's pretty nice.
Nom 04-23-07, 02:08 AM	I'm a Level 7 Ranger, with the Two Weapon Style. I can make 2 attacks with my main weapon and one with my off hand, in a full round attack.Your level 6 Combat Style feat grants you Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which grants a second off hand attack (at -5). So you get two with your main weapon and two with your off hand weapon. You still can only make one attack while Sprint Attacking, though.
Necromas 04-23-07, 03:12 AM	Claw Gloves from the magic item compendium cost 6,000gp (afair) and count as +1 punching daggers that let you attack with both of them during a charge or spring attack. If you don't like claws (that function as punching daggers), extrapolate and make different weapons with the same properties and propose em to your DM.
Kemev 04-23-07, 03:22 AM	Unfortunately, it doesn't. Spring Attack limits the action you can take to an attack action while activating Dual Strike is a standard action. Fly-by Attack, on the other hand, lets you take any standard action. What you really want is the Tempest class from Complete Adventurer. Yes. The Tempest really is the answer to the problem you've posed. If you want to be able to attack with both your weapons, ask your DM if you can adjust your character to incorporate it. Also, if you can use PHB II in your campaign, definitely go for Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz when you get the BAB. By the time you get them, you'll be able to make 4 attacks on a spring attack (assuming you go tempest). It'll turn your spring attacking from near-worthless to reasonably fair. Assuming you can get some reach (enlarge person or expansion are fairly painless) you can dash in, make your 4 attacks, and move back to cover the rest of the party with AoOs.
WinDReiN 04-23-07, 07:32 AM	You can make disarm, sunder or trip attacks during your spring attack, or use your manouvers which require a swift action if you decide to multiclass in a class that can use them.
Ulandorf_TheBlue 04-23-07, 07:54 AM	There's also Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz to look forward to...and they specifically say that you provoke no AoOs during the movement on those feats so maybe Plothos is right about SA.
DrMorganes 04-23-07, 08:12 AM	You can make disarm, sunder or trip attacks during your spring attack, or use your manouvers which require a swift action if you decide to multiclass in a class that can use them. Right. All of which are special types of attacks, each requiring a standard action to use. Still, thanks for pointing it out WinDReiN. Folks occasionally forget things like Disarm, Trip, and Sunder can be important tactics when facing a more powerful foe!
WinDReiN 04-23-07, 10:52 AM	All of which are special types of attacks, each requiring a standard action to use. I'm, not sure if you agree or disagree with me? Spring attack is used when making a attack action with a melee weapon, which is a standard action, but Spring attack doesn't allow other kind of standard actions. Disarm, Sunder & Trip special attacks are made as a melee attack, and can be made only with weapons if combined with SA; not as a unarmed melee attack since SA requires a melee weapon.