A Revision for Throwing Weapon Enhancements [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Revision for Throwing Weapon Enhancements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OneWinged4ngel
11-27-06, 08:20 PM Throwing weapons. They're stylish and cool, no doubt, but stigmatized in D&D to some extent. Quite simply, magically enhancing a throwing dagger that you'll use once is just as expensive as enhancing a sword you'll use forever. Arrows fix this problem easily, adjusting the price. However, for throwing weapons, one must use the Returning Enchantment. This, however, actually contributes to the stigma and unpopularity of throwing weapons in some part. The reason is simple: a throwing dagger sticking out of the victim's head as it snaps back and the body goes limp is sometimes viewed as "sexier" than if it magically got up and returned. Some people prefer the visual of enemies riddled with thrown weapons, rather than a weapon getting up and returning to them. I believe in choice, and in providing more options for a character's style.

Of course, throwing weapons cannot have the same solution as arrows! Arrows are destroyed upon use, but thrown weapons can be reused, and also can be used in melee combat.

Here, I offer a simple alternative to the Returning requirement on every thrown weapon:

One-shot magic enhancements to weapons. These enhancements would cost the same as an arrow enchantment, but unlike normal weapon enhancements, it isn't permanent. After a single strike from a weapon so enhanced, the enhancements is lost and the weapon becomes nonmagical. These infusions could also apply to weapons if they're not thrown.

Thoughts?
Zicka
11-27-06, 08:29 PM well, Im a rouge that uses two daggers and I know for a fact I always go and get my daggers after but this could work, if it could be used on melee wepons as well.:invasion:
OneWinged4ngel
11-27-06, 08:32 PM well, Im a rouge that uses two daggers and I know for a fact I always go and get my daggers after but this could work, if it could be used on melee wepons as well.:invasion:

Sure can. But the main benefit of it applies to thrown weapons.

Technically, though, any melee weapon can be thrown.
Suin Bahhar
11-27-06, 08:47 PM I believe oils of weapon enhancement exist already. The ability to coat a weapon as a standard action an have it emulate cold iron/adamantite/silver already exists somewhere... Can somebody refresh my memory?
Ogre4Hire
11-27-06, 10:23 PM Silversheen in the DMG under Wonderous Items. Currently, I know of no magic oils that can grant weapons the traits of Adamantine or Cold Iron (though the Book of Exalted Deeds does have a spell that causes a weapon to function like Adamantine).
OneWinged4ngel
11-28-06, 12:53 AM I believe oils of weapon enhancement exist already. The ability to coat a weapon as a standard action an have it emulate cold iron/adamantite/silver already exists somewhere... Can somebody refresh my memory?
Silversheen in the DMG under Wonderous Items. Currently, I know of no magic oils that can grant weapons the traits of Adamantine or Cold Iron (though the Book of Exalted Deeds does have a spell that causes a weapon to function like Adamantine).

Heh, that's not what these do, though. It gives weapon enhancements similar to arrows. Like, "+1 Flaming" or whatever.
runestar
11-28-06, 01:12 AM There is a glove in PGTF which grants the throwing and returning properties on weapons you throw....at 10000gp, its cheaper than enchanting 4+ daggers...
The reason is simple: a throwing dagger sticking out of the victim's head as it snaps back and the body goes limp is sexier than if it magically got up and returned. Thrown weapons seem to lose out some on mechanics as well as the "cool factor."
It doesn't have to be that way. Mechanically, yes, but flavourwise, you should be free to designate your own special effects for returning weapons, so long as they do not actually interfere with combat. I could have the returning dagger dissolve into nothingness after it hits its target, only to reappear hovering next to me in the subsequent round, where I pluck it out of the air and throw again...

Or am I missing something?:confused:
OneWinged4ngel
11-28-06, 02:51 AM It doesn't have to be that way. Mechanically, yes, but flavourwise, you should be free to designate your own special effects for returning weapons, so long as they do not actually interfere with combat. I could have the returning dagger dissolve into nothingness after it hits its target, only to reappear hovering next to me in the subsequent round, where I pluck it out of the air and throw again...

I know, and I agree that returning weapons can offer a compelling flavor as well.
Of course you can, but no matter which way it returns, it does return within a few seconds. I'm not sure where I gave you the idea that that, or any of a hundred other options, weren't possible or interesting... because I never said that. Instead, I was saying that some people prefer an alternative.

This simply presents yet another option, allowing for a different sort of flavor and a versatility of armament that rivals an archer. Some find the visual of enemies riddled with thrown weapons compelling (and indeed, the visual is very common throughout movies, video games, anime, etc. The thrown knife sticking out of the lord's heart thrown from an unseen assassin's hand, for example, is classic).

Quite simply, I'm offerring a simple solution to allow a new and viable alternative. As it is now, the returning enchantment is practically *required*. I believe that a choice is better than a single option :)
runestar
11-28-06, 04:50 AM I get what you mean. Apologies for any confusion caused.:)

Unfortunately, I dount I am going to pay good money for 50 throwing daggers with a one-off weapon enhancement.

While viable for arrows, I don't think many people actually take up on that offer save for specific scenarios such as bane. Stacking a +10 bow with +10 arrows sounds good on paper, until you realise the massive resource sinkhole it will entail...:weep:

Normally, they just rely on a magical bow - 50 arrows just gets used up too fast to justify the monetary expenditure.

Same goes for throwing weapons - if not for returning, no one would ever use throwing as a viable combat option.
jaelis
11-28-06, 09:04 AM I think the idea of gloves that give an enhancement to a thrown weapon could be made to work. It's not much different from how bows and arrows work now... I'd probably bump the price since you don't (normally) lose thrown weapons. Like maybe the gloves cost double the normal price, for instance. So you could get +2 flaming gloves of throwing for 36000 gp. They would give every weapon you throw a +2 enhancement bonus and the flaming property.
OneWinged4ngel
11-28-06, 03:19 PM I think the idea of gloves that give an enhancement to a thrown weapon could be made to work. It's not much different from how bows and arrows work now... I'd probably bump the price since you don't (normally) lose thrown weapons. Like maybe the gloves cost double the normal price, for instance. So you could get +2 flaming gloves of throwing for 36000 gp. They would give every weapon you throw a +2 enhancement bonus and the flaming property.

That, too, sounds like a good alternative.

Perhaps both could be implemented. Just like you have a +2 bow and +1 arrow (or whatever), you might have a +1 flaming glove and +2 thrown weapon.
jaelis
11-28-06, 03:24 PM Perhaps both could be implemented. Just like you have a +2 bow and +1 arrow (or whatever), you might have a +1 flaming glove and +2 thrown weapon.
Yes, that is what I was imagining.
Nathreet
11-30-06, 10:42 PM ^ +1 to the gloves of throwing. Good idea. Heck, even make it consume the glove/gauntlet slot.

As for the magic bow/magic arrows thingy:

a = arrow effective enhancment bonus
b = bow effective enhancement bonus
e = total enhancement bonus
m = money you want to spend on your bow, in gp
n = number of arrows you plan on firing over the life of your bow

2000b^2 + 40na^2 = m
a = ((m - 2000b^2) / (40n))^0.5
b = ((m - 40na^2) / 2000)^0.5
e = a + b
e = a + ((m - 40na^2) / 2000)^0.5
de/da = 0.5 * ((m - 40na^2) / 2000)^-0.5 * (-40na / 2000) + 1
de/da = 0.5 * ((m - 40na^2) * 2000)^-0.5 * (-40na) + 1
= ((m - 40na^2) * 2000)^-0.5 * -20na + 1 = 0
= (m - 40na^2)^-0.5 * na = 5^0.5
= (m - 40na^2)^-1 * n^2a^2 = 5
5(m - 40na^2) = n^2a^2
5m - 200na^2 = n^2a^2
5m = (200n + n^2)a^2
a = (5m / (200n + n^2))^0.5
money spent on arrows = a^2 * 2000 * n / 50
money spent on arrows = 200m / (200 + n)
money spent on arrows = m / (1 + n / 200)

Let's test the answer:
A +2 bow costs 8,000gp (ignoring cost of MW bow). 200 +1 arrows cost 4*2,000=8,000gp. Total: 16,000gp. A +3 bow costs 18,000gp. You just saved 2,000gp.
400 +1 arrows cost 16,000gp. For 32,000gp you get a +4 bow. Total: 48,000gp. A +5 bow costs 50,000gp. Again you saved 2000gp.
Hmm... 200 +2 arrows cost 32,000gp. For 32,000gp you get a +4 bow. Total: 64,000gp. A +6 bow (ok, a +4 holy bow or whatever) costs 72,000gp. You saved 8,000gp. Looks like you always save the cost of 50 arrows using the equation above.

money spent on arrows = money / (1 + #arrows / 200)

Or, the simple and safe answer is (just an estimate):
Spend about 5% of your archery money on special arrows.
If you don't use your bow that often, spend about 10% of your archery money on special arrows.

If you plan on using 100 arrows over the life of your bow then, compared to just buying a bow and using regular arrows, this equation will save you 25% of your archery money. It's only 11% if you plan on using 200 arrows, 6% if you plan on using 300 arrows, 4% if you plan on using 400 arrows or 3% if you plan on using 500 arrows. And nothing says you can't buy 50 better arrows to use against the BBEG (saves you 44% vs. buying a better bow to fight the BBEG).

But this all assumes the bow stacks with the arrows. Didn't they get rid of that rule? If not, does a magic bow stack with MW arrows? 'Cause if so I'd always use MW arrows.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OneWinged4ngel 11-27-06, 08:20 PM	Throwing weapons. They're stylish and cool, no doubt, but stigmatized in D&D to some extent. Quite simply, magically enhancing a throwing dagger that you'll use once is just as expensive as enhancing a sword you'll use forever. Arrows fix this problem easily, adjusting the price. However, for throwing weapons, one must use the Returning Enchantment. This, however, actually contributes to the stigma and unpopularity of throwing weapons in some part. The reason is simple: a throwing dagger sticking out of the victim's head as it snaps back and the body goes limp is sometimes viewed as "sexier" than if it magically got up and returned. Some people prefer the visual of enemies riddled with thrown weapons, rather than a weapon getting up and returning to them. I believe in choice, and in providing more options for a character's style. Of course, throwing weapons cannot have the same solution as arrows! Arrows are destroyed upon use, but thrown weapons can be reused, and also can be used in melee combat. Here, I offer a simple alternative to the Returning requirement on every thrown weapon: One-shot magic enhancements to weapons. These enhancements would cost the same as an arrow enchantment, but unlike normal weapon enhancements, it isn't permanent. After a single strike from a weapon so enhanced, the enhancements is lost and the weapon becomes nonmagical. These infusions could also apply to weapons if they're not thrown. Thoughts?
Zicka 11-27-06, 08:29 PM	well, Im a rouge that uses two daggers and I know for a fact I always go and get my daggers after but this could work, if it could be used on melee wepons as well.:invasion:
OneWinged4ngel 11-27-06, 08:32 PM	well, Im a rouge that uses two daggers and I know for a fact I always go and get my daggers after but this could work, if it could be used on melee wepons as well.:invasion: Sure can. But the main benefit of it applies to thrown weapons. Technically, though, any melee weapon can be thrown.
Suin Bahhar 11-27-06, 08:47 PM	I believe oils of weapon enhancement exist already. The ability to coat a weapon as a standard action an have it emulate cold iron/adamantite/silver already exists somewhere... Can somebody refresh my memory?
Ogre4Hire 11-27-06, 10:23 PM	Silversheen in the DMG under Wonderous Items. Currently, I know of no magic oils that can grant weapons the traits of Adamantine or Cold Iron (though the Book of Exalted Deeds does have a spell that causes a weapon to function like Adamantine).
OneWinged4ngel 11-28-06, 12:53 AM	I believe oils of weapon enhancement exist already. The ability to coat a weapon as a standard action an have it emulate cold iron/adamantite/silver already exists somewhere... Can somebody refresh my memory? Silversheen in the DMG under Wonderous Items. Currently, I know of no magic oils that can grant weapons the traits of Adamantine or Cold Iron (though the Book of Exalted Deeds does have a spell that causes a weapon to function like Adamantine). Heh, that's not what these do, though. It gives weapon enhancements similar to arrows. Like, "+1 Flaming" or whatever.
runestar 11-28-06, 01:12 AM	There is a glove in PGTF which grants the throwing and returning properties on weapons you throw....at 10000gp, its cheaper than enchanting 4+ daggers... The reason is simple: a throwing dagger sticking out of the victim's head as it snaps back and the body goes limp is sexier than if it magically got up and returned. Thrown weapons seem to lose out some on mechanics as well as the "cool factor." It doesn't have to be that way. Mechanically, yes, but flavourwise, you should be free to designate your own special effects for returning weapons, so long as they do not actually interfere with combat. I could have the returning dagger dissolve into nothingness after it hits its target, only to reappear hovering next to me in the subsequent round, where I pluck it out of the air and throw again... Or am I missing something?:confused:
OneWinged4ngel 11-28-06, 02:51 AM	It doesn't have to be that way. Mechanically, yes, but flavourwise, you should be free to designate your own special effects for returning weapons, so long as they do not actually interfere with combat. I could have the returning dagger dissolve into nothingness after it hits its target, only to reappear hovering next to me in the subsequent round, where I pluck it out of the air and throw again... I know, and I agree that returning weapons can offer a compelling flavor as well. Of course you can, but no matter which way it returns, it does return within a few seconds. I'm not sure where I gave you the idea that that, or any of a hundred other options, weren't possible or interesting... because I never said that. Instead, I was saying that some people prefer an alternative. This simply presents yet another option, allowing for a different sort of flavor and a versatility of armament that rivals an archer. Some find the visual of enemies riddled with thrown weapons compelling (and indeed, the visual is very common throughout movies, video games, anime, etc. The thrown knife sticking out of the lord's heart thrown from an unseen assassin's hand, for example, is classic). Quite simply, I'm offerring a simple solution to allow a new and viable alternative. As it is now, the returning enchantment is practically required. I believe that a choice is better than a single option :)
runestar 11-28-06, 04:50 AM	I get what you mean. Apologies for any confusion caused.:) Unfortunately, I dount I am going to pay good money for 50 throwing daggers with a one-off weapon enhancement. While viable for arrows, I don't think many people actually take up on that offer save for specific scenarios such as bane. Stacking a +10 bow with +10 arrows sounds good on paper, until you realise the massive resource sinkhole it will entail...:weep: Normally, they just rely on a magical bow - 50 arrows just gets used up too fast to justify the monetary expenditure. Same goes for throwing weapons - if not for returning, no one would ever use throwing as a viable combat option.
jaelis 11-28-06, 09:04 AM	I think the idea of gloves that give an enhancement to a thrown weapon could be made to work. It's not much different from how bows and arrows work now... I'd probably bump the price since you don't (normally) lose thrown weapons. Like maybe the gloves cost double the normal price, for instance. So you could get +2 flaming gloves of throwing for 36000 gp. They would give every weapon you throw a +2 enhancement bonus and the flaming property.
OneWinged4ngel 11-28-06, 03:19 PM	I think the idea of gloves that give an enhancement to a thrown weapon could be made to work. It's not much different from how bows and arrows work now... I'd probably bump the price since you don't (normally) lose thrown weapons. Like maybe the gloves cost double the normal price, for instance. So you could get +2 flaming gloves of throwing for 36000 gp. They would give every weapon you throw a +2 enhancement bonus and the flaming property. That, too, sounds like a good alternative. Perhaps both could be implemented. Just like you have a +2 bow and +1 arrow (or whatever), you might have a +1 flaming glove and +2 thrown weapon.
jaelis 11-28-06, 03:24 PM	Perhaps both could be implemented. Just like you have a +2 bow and +1 arrow (or whatever), you might have a +1 flaming glove and +2 thrown weapon. Yes, that is what I was imagining.
Nathreet 11-30-06, 10:42 PM	^ +1 to the gloves of throwing. Good idea. Heck, even make it consume the glove/gauntlet slot. As for the magic bow/magic arrows thingy: a = arrow effective enhancment bonus b = bow effective enhancement bonus e = total enhancement bonus m = money you want to spend on your bow, in gp n = number of arrows you plan on firing over the life of your bow 2000b^2 + 40na^2 = m a = ((m - 2000b^2) / (40n))^0.5 b = ((m - 40na^2) / 2000)^0.5 e = a + b e = a + ((m - 40na^2) / 2000)^0.5 de/da = 0.5 * ((m - 40na^2) / 2000)^-0.5 * (-40na / 2000) + 1 de/da = 0.5 * ((m - 40na^2) * 2000)^-0.5 * (-40na) + 1 = ((m - 40na^2) * 2000)^-0.5 * -20na + 1 = 0 = (m - 40na^2)^-0.5 * na = 5^0.5 = (m - 40na^2)^-1 * n^2a^2 = 5 5(m - 40na^2) = n^2a^2 5m - 200na^2 = n^2a^2 5m = (200n + n^2)a^2 a = (5m / (200n + n^2))^0.5 money spent on arrows = a^2 * 2000 * n / 50 money spent on arrows = 200m / (200 + n) money spent on arrows = m / (1 + n / 200) Let's test the answer: A +2 bow costs 8,000gp (ignoring cost of MW bow). 200 +1 arrows cost 4*2,000=8,000gp. Total: 16,000gp. A +3 bow costs 18,000gp. You just saved 2,000gp. 400 +1 arrows cost 16,000gp. For 32,000gp you get a +4 bow. Total: 48,000gp. A +5 bow costs 50,000gp. Again you saved 2000gp. Hmm... 200 +2 arrows cost 32,000gp. For 32,000gp you get a +4 bow. Total: 64,000gp. A +6 bow (ok, a +4 holy bow or whatever) costs 72,000gp. You saved 8,000gp. Looks like you always save the cost of 50 arrows using the equation above. money spent on arrows = money / (1 + #arrows / 200) Or, the simple and safe answer is (just an estimate): Spend about 5% of your archery money on special arrows. If you don't use your bow that often, spend about 10% of your archery money on special arrows. If you plan on using 100 arrows over the life of your bow then, compared to just buying a bow and using regular arrows, this equation will save you 25% of your archery money. It's only 11% if you plan on using 200 arrows, 6% if you plan on using 300 arrows, 4% if you plan on using 400 arrows or 3% if you plan on using 500 arrows. And nothing says you can't buy 50 better arrows to use against the BBEG (saves you 44% vs. buying a better bow to fight the BBEG). But this all assumes the bow stacks with the arrows. Didn't they get rid of that rule? If not, does a magic bow stack with MW arrows? 'Cause if so I'd always use MW arrows.