A Senmurv fighting with an Opposable Scimitar [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Senmurv fighting with an Opposable Scimitar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Craig C.
01-06-05, 12:35 AM my druid is taking the form of a Senmurv using his exalted wildshape feat. the Senmurv is in the Fiend Folio on page 149.

my druid has a +1 magic scimitar that has the Opposable weapon enhancement. Opposable is also +1 cost - its in the MotW book page 28.

since the Senmurv does not have hands, the Opposable part of my scimitar kicks in. so my question to all of you is, how does his attack routine work for a full attack?

1 Opposable +1 Scimitar
1 Bite Attack
2 "Foot Claws"
1 Rend of both "Foot Claws" hit

...

IS that right? Assume I have a BAB of +8 and a +6 strength modifier = +14 BAB.

according to the book, both bite and claw attacks are primary attacks - unless they made a mistake.

please help! thank you. :tiphat:
Nuntius128
01-06-05, 02:11 AM The Senmurv only has 2 legs, and no forearms, doesn't it? I am pretty sure that it woud be "holding" the weapon in one of those, so it would lose the Claw attack from that foot. Can anyone add, or fix?
Craig C.
01-06-05, 03:02 PM The Senmurv only has 2 legs, and no forearms, doesn't it? I am pretty sure that it woud be "holding" the weapon in one of those, so it would lose the Claw attack from that foot. Can anyone add, or fix?
No, the Senmurv would be "holding" the Opposable Scimitar in his wing "hand". Freeing up his foot talons. That's why I have the opposable weapon enhancement, so I can maximize his attack numbers.

If you read the opposable weap. enhancement, you'll see it is specifically for situations as I describe. So a non-handed creature can use a handed weapon, as long as it has a limb attached to it that can act as an arm would in combat.
Craig C.
01-07-05, 06:45 PM Can anyone help me? :(

thanks in advance!
Nuntius128
01-07-05, 07:28 PM So a non-handed creature can use a handed weapon, as long as it has a limb attached to it that can act as an arm would in combat.

Yeah, but the Senmurv can't use the wing as an arm in combat, can it? That'd be like using an opposable sword with your back. It might be a limb, but I'd think a wing would lack the muscles capable of using a weapon. Opposable is supposed to compensate for a thumb, not capability to use a weapon. You'd be better off having a Dancing weapon.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man
01-07-05, 11:33 PM I think the Senmurv can use it. seriously, what the hell would you be buying the Opposable enhancement for? i mean c'mon, how many creature types does it work for?

Also, I'm no ornithologist, but i see no reason wjy a senmurv cant swing a sword based on the way his wing looks.
Shadowfax7
01-08-05, 12:21 AM I agree with Nuntius128, the wing doesn't qualify to be used with an opposable weapon.

If the wing had some form of hand, like a pterodactyl's wing, then I would allow it, but as the picture shows (FF, pg. 149) the Senmurv only has spikes on it's wings.
DemonMonkeyBoy
01-08-05, 01:03 AM :b: I don't have the FO, but here is a nice picture of the Senmurv.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50102.jpg

I would allow you to use said weapon with out a problem. MoTW has a picture of an owl using a bow an arrow. The opposable ability work more like the weapon holds the limb, than the limb holds the weapon.

As for your attack, I'm having a brain fart right now, but I think it works as follows. The weapon would get attacks as normal for BAB, but all natural weapons attack at -5. I know this was covered in a recent FAQ, I just don't want to look for it.
Alchahest
01-08-05, 07:52 AM first; wow, I forgot how ugly senmurvs were.

second, I would rule that it's not a good idea. the opposeable attachment basically functions as a thumb for those without thumbs. but this thing doesn't have fingers or useable digits in any form. plus, no matter how well it can hold the sword, not having a flexible wrist is a huge disadvantage. maybe make it useable, but with a big to-hit modifier.
Nuntius128
01-08-05, 01:23 PM As for how many creatures can use an Opposable Weapon, I think that since it was never updated, or renewed for any of the newer books, then WoTC probably just didn't want to bring it back, as it has such limited use. Only a very few creatures can use them, since most things that lack a thumb have more than one natural weapon, or special abilities to make up for it.
Snow Savant
01-08-05, 06:26 PM first; wow, I forgot how ugly senmurvs were.

second, I would rule that it's not a good idea. the opposeable attachment basically functions as a thumb for those without thumbs. but this thing doesn't have fingers or useable digits in any form. plus, no matter how well it can hold the sword, not having a flexible wrist is a huge disadvantage. maybe make it useable, but with a big to-hit modifier.Then you better do some fancy talking, Alchahest. Because as Demon Monkey Boy said, the owl on page 29 of the MotW is using an Opposable bow and arrow. Which is a heck of a lot more complicated than a Senmurv using an Opposable Sword or whatever.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Alchahest
01-09-05, 06:44 AM the owl isn't using it's wing to fire the bow, it's using it's talons. which are alot different from a senmurv's paws. though I might rule that a senmurv could use weapons while in flight, they can't be simultaneously weilding a weapon and standing on the limbs they're attacking with.
Snow Savant
01-09-05, 09:10 AM Nope. You're wrong Alcahest. An owl's talons are on his feat. The owl is holding the bow in one wing, and the arrow in another wing. Your sense of perspective is a bit off.

Perhaps you need to read this series of rulings from the Opposable weapon enhancement:

"...Even a creature that lacks the proper hands for weapon use can wield an opposable weapon ... To wield an opposable weapon, a creature must be corporeal, have limbs, have proficiency with the weapon, and be able to stand without the limb(s) that wield the opposable weapon."

Now, using that criteria, a Senmurv with an opposable weapon held at the end of his wing, is TOTALLY legit. As he meets every single one of the criteria points. He doesn't even need to have quasi-hands, just a limb that act as one.

Which also means, the Senmurv can not only attack with the opposable weapon as his primary weapon, he can also attack with his bite and 2 leg claws as secondary attacks as well.

If anyone has any definitive rulings that counter the exacting criteria of the Opposable Weapon enhancement that would change this attack routine, we're all ears!

I think common sense is telling us this combination "looks" impossible and seems absurd, but the actual RAW and game mechanics is telling us otherwise.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
Shadowfax7
01-09-05, 12:37 PM In light of Snow's post and in correct interpretation of the rules, I withdraw my previous opinion and agree with Snow.

My thinking was that a limb is not a wing (pictures in D&D rulebooks have been in error in the past :) ) and thus wouldn't work with the opposable ability.

However, in looking up the definition of limb, it specifically gives a wing as an example.

I also still agree that it doesn't look believable, but then it's magic.
Nuntius128
01-09-05, 04:13 PM I still have to stand by the fact that Dancing property weapons negate this whole argument. Also, the owl drawing sucked. Just ask your DM for a Dancing weapon. If he'll let you play a Senmurv, he'll probably let you get one fairly easily.
Faustus von Kai
01-09-05, 04:22 PM I think common sense is telling us this combination "looks" impossible and seems absurd, but the actual RAW and game mechanics is telling us otherwise.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:

And common sense also leads us to rule out common sense. It's MAGIC folks. As it says, as long as he's got a limb that he's not standing on, the weapon fixes itself to the limb and becomes usable. We're also not working off of biology. Where does it say that the Senmurv's wrist can't move a certain way? It really doesn't matter because, it's MAGIC.
GoodTeletubby
01-09-05, 07:57 PM I still have to stand by the fact that Dancing property weapons negate this whole argument. Also, the owl drawing sucked. Just ask your DM for a Dancing weapon. If he'll let you play a Senmurv, he'll probably let you get one fairly easily.

and how the heck do you propose to get a dancing longbow? or function in combat for more than 4 rounds without having to take an AoO and blow a full round's worth of attacks to pick it up and release it?

opposable is far superior to dancing in many circumstances, and isn't as limited, making it the better choice in this case
Nuntius128
01-09-05, 10:16 PM and how the heck do you propose to get a dancing longbow? or function in combat for more than 4 rounds without having to take an AoO and blow a full round's worth of attacks to pick it up and release it?

First, he was asking for a Scimitar. Second, As a DM, I wouldn't let a player play as a character without proper limbs to use a weapon, when they have a Natural Attack to compensate for lack of crafted weapons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Craig C. 01-06-05, 12:35 AM	my druid is taking the form of a Senmurv using his exalted wildshape feat. the Senmurv is in the Fiend Folio on page 149. my druid has a +1 magic scimitar that has the Opposable weapon enhancement. Opposable is also +1 cost - its in the MotW book page 28. since the Senmurv does not have hands, the Opposable part of my scimitar kicks in. so my question to all of you is, how does his attack routine work for a full attack? 1 Opposable +1 Scimitar 1 Bite Attack 2 "Foot Claws" 1 Rend of both "Foot Claws" hit ... IS that right? Assume I have a BAB of +8 and a +6 strength modifier = +14 BAB. according to the book, both bite and claw attacks are primary attacks - unless they made a mistake. please help! thank you. :tiphat:
Nuntius128 01-06-05, 02:11 AM	The Senmurv only has 2 legs, and no forearms, doesn't it? I am pretty sure that it woud be "holding" the weapon in one of those, so it would lose the Claw attack from that foot. Can anyone add, or fix?
Craig C. 01-06-05, 03:02 PM	The Senmurv only has 2 legs, and no forearms, doesn't it? I am pretty sure that it woud be "holding" the weapon in one of those, so it would lose the Claw attack from that foot. Can anyone add, or fix? No, the Senmurv would be "holding" the Opposable Scimitar in his wing "hand". Freeing up his foot talons. That's why I have the opposable weapon enhancement, so I can maximize his attack numbers. If you read the opposable weap. enhancement, you'll see it is specifically for situations as I describe. So a non-handed creature can use a handed weapon, as long as it has a limb attached to it that can act as an arm would in combat.
Craig C. 01-07-05, 06:45 PM	Can anyone help me? :( thanks in advance!
Nuntius128 01-07-05, 07:28 PM	So a non-handed creature can use a handed weapon, as long as it has a limb attached to it that can act as an arm would in combat. Yeah, but the Senmurv can't use the wing as an arm in combat, can it? That'd be like using an opposable sword with your back. It might be a limb, but I'd think a wing would lack the muscles capable of using a weapon. Opposable is supposed to compensate for a thumb, not capability to use a weapon. You'd be better off having a Dancing weapon.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 01-07-05, 11:33 PM	I think the Senmurv can use it. seriously, what the hell would you be buying the Opposable enhancement for? i mean c'mon, how many creature types does it work for? Also, I'm no ornithologist, but i see no reason wjy a senmurv cant swing a sword based on the way his wing looks.
Shadowfax7 01-08-05, 12:21 AM	I agree with Nuntius128, the wing doesn't qualify to be used with an opposable weapon. If the wing had some form of hand, like a pterodactyl's wing, then I would allow it, but as the picture shows (FF, pg. 149) the Senmurv only has spikes on it's wings.
DemonMonkeyBoy 01-08-05, 01:03 AM	:b: I don't have the FO, but here is a nice picture of the Senmurv. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50102.jpg I would allow you to use said weapon with out a problem. MoTW has a picture of an owl using a bow an arrow. The opposable ability work more like the weapon holds the limb, than the limb holds the weapon. As for your attack, I'm having a brain fart right now, but I think it works as follows. The weapon would get attacks as normal for BAB, but all natural weapons attack at -5. I know this was covered in a recent FAQ, I just don't want to look for it.
Alchahest 01-08-05, 07:52 AM	first; wow, I forgot how ugly senmurvs were. second, I would rule that it's not a good idea. the opposeable attachment basically functions as a thumb for those without thumbs. but this thing doesn't have fingers or useable digits in any form. plus, no matter how well it can hold the sword, not having a flexible wrist is a huge disadvantage. maybe make it useable, but with a big to-hit modifier.
Nuntius128 01-08-05, 01:23 PM	As for how many creatures can use an Opposable Weapon, I think that since it was never updated, or renewed for any of the newer books, then WoTC probably just didn't want to bring it back, as it has such limited use. Only a very few creatures can use them, since most things that lack a thumb have more than one natural weapon, or special abilities to make up for it.
Snow Savant 01-08-05, 06:26 PM	first; wow, I forgot how ugly senmurvs were. second, I would rule that it's not a good idea. the opposeable attachment basically functions as a thumb for those without thumbs. but this thing doesn't have fingers or useable digits in any form. plus, no matter how well it can hold the sword, not having a flexible wrist is a huge disadvantage. maybe make it useable, but with a big to-hit modifier.Then you better do some fancy talking, Alchahest. Because as Demon Monkey Boy said, the owl on page 29 of the MotW is using an Opposable bow and arrow. Which is a heck of a lot more complicated than a Senmurv using an Opposable Sword or whatever. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Alchahest 01-09-05, 06:44 AM	the owl isn't using it's wing to fire the bow, it's using it's talons. which are alot different from a senmurv's paws. though I might rule that a senmurv could use weapons while in flight, they can't be simultaneously weilding a weapon and standing on the limbs they're attacking with.
Snow Savant 01-09-05, 09:10 AM	Nope. You're wrong Alcahest. An owl's talons are on his feat. The owl is holding the bow in one wing, and the arrow in another wing. Your sense of perspective is a bit off. Perhaps you need to read this series of rulings from the Opposable weapon enhancement: "...Even a creature that lacks the proper hands for weapon use can wield an opposable weapon ... To wield an opposable weapon, a creature must be corporeal, have limbs, have proficiency with the weapon, and be able to stand without the limb(s) that wield the opposable weapon." Now, using that criteria, a Senmurv with an opposable weapon held at the end of his wing, is TOTALLY legit. As he meets every single one of the criteria points. He doesn't even need to have quasi-hands, just a limb that act as one. Which also means, the Senmurv can not only attack with the opposable weapon as his primary weapon, he can also attack with his bite and 2 leg claws as secondary attacks as well. If anyone has any definitive rulings that counter the exacting criteria of the Opposable Weapon enhancement that would change this attack routine, we're all ears! I think common sense is telling us this combination "looks" impossible and seems absurd, but the actual RAW and game mechanics is telling us otherwise. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Shadowfax7 01-09-05, 12:37 PM	In light of Snow's post and in correct interpretation of the rules, I withdraw my previous opinion and agree with Snow. My thinking was that a limb is not a wing (pictures in D&D rulebooks have been in error in the past :) ) and thus wouldn't work with the opposable ability. However, in looking up the definition of limb, it specifically gives a wing as an example. I also still agree that it doesn't look believable, but then it's magic.
Nuntius128 01-09-05, 04:13 PM	I still have to stand by the fact that Dancing property weapons negate this whole argument. Also, the owl drawing sucked. Just ask your DM for a Dancing weapon. If he'll let you play a Senmurv, he'll probably let you get one fairly easily.
Faustus von Kai 01-09-05, 04:22 PM	I think common sense is telling us this combination "looks" impossible and seems absurd, but the actual RAW and game mechanics is telling us otherwise. XO, Snow :cloud9: And common sense also leads us to rule out common sense. It's MAGIC folks. As it says, as long as he's got a limb that he's not standing on, the weapon fixes itself to the limb and becomes usable. We're also not working off of biology. Where does it say that the Senmurv's wrist can't move a certain way? It really doesn't matter because, it's MAGIC.
GoodTeletubby 01-09-05, 07:57 PM	I still have to stand by the fact that Dancing property weapons negate this whole argument. Also, the owl drawing sucked. Just ask your DM for a Dancing weapon. If he'll let you play a Senmurv, he'll probably let you get one fairly easily. and how the heck do you propose to get a dancing longbow? or function in combat for more than 4 rounds without having to take an AoO and blow a full round's worth of attacks to pick it up and release it? opposable is far superior to dancing in many circumstances, and isn't as limited, making it the better choice in this case
Nuntius128 01-09-05, 10:16 PM	and how the heck do you propose to get a dancing longbow? or function in combat for more than 4 rounds without having to take an AoO and blow a full round's worth of attacks to pick it up and release it? First, he was asking for a Scimitar. Second, As a DM, I wouldn't let a player play as a character without proper limbs to use a weapon, when they have a Natural Attack to compensate for lack of crafted weapons.