Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fanged Fremont 08-19-05, 10:52 AM	There's two fighters. Fighter 2 has combat reflexes. The fighters get into a knife fight. Fighter 1 gets ready to trip, provoking an AoO for not having a trip weapon or improved trip. Fighter 2 decides he wants to try and grapple. He provokes an AoO for not having imrpoved grapple. IgnoreFighter 1 decides to punch to avoid the grapple. Provoking another AoO Fighter 1 for some odd reason decides to disarm. Provoking an AoO for not having improved disarm Fighter 2 wants to trip. He provokes an AoO but fighter 1 doesn't have combat reflexes. Fighter 2 suceeds in tripping fighter 1. 1.) Does fighter 1 still get his AoO now that he's on the ground? 2.) If he does, and misses, can fighter 2 still grapple him? 3.) What modifyers are there for attempting to grapple a prone character, and what are the rules for grappling while prone? 3.) If fighter 2 suceeds his grapple check, is fighter 1's original attack void null since he was trying to trip? or can he decide to try something else to replace his trip attempt? 4.) If Fighter 2 fails his grapple check, can fighter 1 still trip him while prone? I know some of the answers are obvious, but I have a need to verify things in general.
Keenath 08-19-05, 11:12 AM	1.) Does fighter 1 still get his AoO now that he's on the ground?Yes, but at a -4 penalty for making a melee attack while prone. 2.) If he does, and misses, can fighter 2 still grapple him?Yes, that is still on the stack. 3.) What modifyers are there for attempting to grapple a prone character, and what are the rules for grappling while prone? You get a +4 to strike with any melee attack against a prone creature, so that applies to the touch attack. Nobody gets a particular bonus or penalty on his grapple check, though. 3.) If fighter 2 suceeds his grapple check, is fighter 1's original attack void null since he was trying to trip? or can he decide to try something else to replace his trip attempt?His original attack is void, because A) he can't make a trip attack while grappling, and B) you can't trip a prone target anyway. 4.) If Fighter 2 fails his grapple check, can fighter 1 still trip him while prone? Yes, but at a -4 on his to-hit.
Dougbert 08-19-05, 11:26 AM	In situations like this you basically go through calling out all the actions and AoO's that take place and then resolve them in reverse order, applying any modifiers that may accumulate along the way. It isn't pretty, or even logical, sometimes. Of course, if something is just really off the wall the DM can step in and clean it up a little.
Merestil Haye 08-19-05, 11:27 AM	One other little point. Fighter 1 may not take AoOs. Therefore he may not attempt to punch Fighter 2 when the latter attempts a grapple. Why?If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.Fighter 2 may tak AoO's because he ha IUS. Neglecting that question, I agree with all Keenath's answers.
mvincent 08-19-05, 12:10 PM	he can't make a trip attack while grapplingIt's a moot point in this case but; is this correct?
Fanged Fremont 08-19-05, 12:23 PM	One other little point. Fighter 1 may not take AoOs. Therefore he may not attempt to punch Fighter 2 when the latter attempts a grapple. Why?Fighter 2 may tak AoO's because he ha IUS. Neglecting that question, I agree with all Keenath's answers. der, I was just thowing out random actions for fighter1 to provoke AoO's without thinking about it. Ok, now it's a knife fight instead of a fist fight.
Fanged Fremont 08-19-05, 12:32 PM	regardless of what kind of fight it is, my questions have been answered and I doubt that this type of scenerio will ever happen. I just like thinking up hypotheticals in the bizzare instance that it does happen. Thanks all.
ShinAkuma2 08-19-05, 01:39 PM	1) Who says you can't make a trip attempt while grappling? You'd be at a minus four, the standard for making a melee attack in a grapple, but you can still do it. A trip attempt can replace any normal attack. 2) The FAQ suggests that a prone grappler takes a -4 penalty to his checks, but, as we know, the FAQ ain't gospel. I'd use it in my games, though, just because it makes perfect sense.
mvincent 08-19-05, 01:59 PM	A trip attempt can replace any normal attack.A weapon must be noted as being able to trip in order for you to attack with it to trip. Oddly, since an unarmed strike (as opposed to an unarmed attack) is not normally considered a trip weapon, one could possibly interpret the following rule as not allowing unarmed trips during a grapple: "You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling" However, even that would still allow you to trip with say, a kama. Interestingly, you could even trip your opponent with his own weapon in a grapple. If anyone thinks it would be wierd to "trip" an opponent during a grapple without you yourself going prone, it actually is fairly realistic.
solbergb 08-19-05, 02:11 PM	In situations like this you basically go through calling out all the actions and AoO's that take place and then resolve them in reverse order, applying any modifiers that may accumulate along the way. It isn't pretty, or even logical, sometimes. Of course, if something is just really off the wall the DM can step in and clean it up a little. This is one thing playing a collectable cardgame makes seem natural. When I played Shadowfist, chains of effects like this were pretty common. When all the dust clears, resolve with last-in-first-out logic until something occurs that breaks the chain or the chain ends.