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a thought [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KoreKore
11-28-05, 06:26 PM I have been wondering this for a while. Could you make a wepon so powerfull that it would require multiple feats to use effectivley. ie a super exotic wepon that even with one feat would still get a -4 then with 2 would be no penalty and with the point system with weponds how many would t get i know exotics get 3 so what 4 5 points what could you make? does anyone have any ideas?
Crash01234567890
11-28-05, 06:38 PM Sure

Super Duper Cloudscraping Spiked Chain of the Nine Hells
Cost: Priceless and your life as a debt
Damage: 4D12+4D10+4D8+4D6+4D4+4D3+4D2+4
Critical: 17-20/x4
Range Increment: 20
Weight: 2 lbs.
Type: Piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning

Special: Reach of 25 feet and can be used to attack any point within reach.
Wielders take a -800 to hit, with the penalties being lessened by five for each feat they spend on proficiency in the weapon. The character must have a least 18 feats in proficiency to be able to attempt an attack with the weapon.

Just kidding.
Overall I think the idea would be really abusive unless you kept very close attention on it. Overall I could see taking exotic weapons and adding bonuses to them, like making them trip weapons or bonuses to disarm, but bumping damage or crit threats is just a bad idea.

For instance

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain Sword
Prerequisite: Exotic WP: Bastard Sword
BenifitL: THe character may now use the chain swordwith no nonproficiency penalties.

The chain sword is a finesable bastard sword that can be used to trip and gains a +2 bonus to disarm.
mvincent
11-28-05, 07:53 PM Could you make a wepon so powerfull that it would require multiple feats to use effectivley.-A full-blade is an example of a weapon that normally requires multiple feats (or abilities) to use effectively. It is basically a large bastard sword.

- I believe mercurial weapons also requires a feat. Unsure if a mercurial bastard sword is possible.

- A Mighty Cleaving weapon also requires the Cleave feat to be effective.

- Intelligent weapons can be finicky about who can wield them.

- Arguably, *any* weapon can be used more effectively with the addition of multiple feats.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-28-05, 09:19 PM No. More prerequisites do not make a broken item or ability any less broken, they just delay the inevitable.
jaelis
11-28-05, 11:20 PM I thought the sugelin or something like that from Races of Stone was an example of what the OP is talking about. But I don't actually have the book, I just recall a discussion about it. Maybe someone could help...?
Bopple
11-28-05, 11:31 PM Sugliin [Frostburn].
But it's not really that good.
a_psh
11-29-05, 12:36 AM Sugliin [Frostburn].
But it's not really that good.It's kind of stylish and works great for lowbie minions, though, IIRC.

Who doesn't want a big fancy stick with horns and stuff on it?
corysold
11-29-05, 10:30 AM [QUOTE=Crash01234567890]Sure

Super Duper Cloudscraping Spiked Chain of the Nine Hells
Cost: Priceless and your life as a debt
Damage: 4D12+4D10+4D8+4D6+4D4+4D3+4D2+4
Critical: 17-20/x4
Range Increment: 20
Weight: 2 lbs.
Type: Piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning

I know this was made up, but, I can see a two sided dice being like a poker chip or a coin, but how can you make a three sided die, is it possible?
Finarin Panjoro
11-29-05, 10:49 AM but how can you make a three sided die, is it possible? Roll 1d6 and divide by 2 rounding up. So a 1-2 equals a 1, a 3-4 equals a 2, and a 5-6 equals a 3. !d2 is usually rolled on a d6 as well (1-3 equals 1, 4-6 equals 2, etc). You can use a d10 to create a d5 and so on.
phelanarcetus
11-29-05, 11:07 AM Additional way to make a d3: it's a triangular rod. So it actually has 5 sides, but it can't land on two of them (like a coin landing on edge).

/_\ roughly.
Aubri
11-29-05, 11:22 AM The trouble is that there's an escalating return for each higher level of difficulty to wield an item. For example, a super-exotic light weapon that dealt 2d6 damage would be broken because of the unusual things you can do with a light weapon--fight with two, for example. There's also the question of how you make a mundane weapon that's so far superior to a sword! Notice that the game deliberately leaves out things like a 1d8/x2 light weapon; there's simply a limit on the die size a light weapon can possess.

One serious problem is combining extended crits with expanded crits. a 19-20/x3 weapon isn't just worth two bonus steps; I worked this out a while back, and you actually have to multiply them for it to be balanced--it's worth three steps (one step for 19-20, and then multiply the one step to x3 by the number of crit numbers--two more.) A 19-20/x4 would thus be worth 5 steps, and 18-20/x3 is worth 5 as well. Theoretically, a 19-20/x3 for two steps would be balanced if it only got x3 on a natural 20.
Erple2
11-29-05, 05:01 PM One serious problem is combining extended crits with expanded crits. a 19-20/x3 weapon isn't just worth two bonus steps; I worked this out a while back, and you actually have to multiply them for it to be balanced--it's worth three steps (one step for 19-20, and then multiply the one step to x3 by the number of crit numbers--two more.) A 19-20/x4 would thus be worth 5 steps, and 18-20/x3 is worth 5 as well. Theoretically, a 19-20/x3 for two steps would be balanced if it only got x3 on a natural 20.

Yes. It boils down to:

20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk 1 times as often (1x) (mace)
20/x3 - 2 extra damage chunks as often (2x) (battle axe)
20/x4 - 3 extra damage chunks as often (3x) (pick)
19-20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk twice as often (2x) (Longsword)
19-20/x3 - 2 extra damage chunks twice as often (4x) (keen axe)
19-20/x4 - 3 extra damage chunks, 2 times as often (6x) (keen pick)
18-20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk 3 times as often (3x) (scimitar)
17-20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk, 4 times as often (4x) (keen longsword)
15-20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk, 6 times as often (6x) (keen scimitar)

at least, that's what's possible.
19-20/x3 as a base weapon would make it as powerful as a keen axe. Or maybe improved crit axe. I MIGHT allow that in my game as a crazy exotic weapon. But, that means that if you get improved crit with this newfangled weapon, it's now "8x" the damage - 2 extra damage dice, 4 times as often.

Note, in all of this, the "4x" or "6x" refers to the expected extra damage due to a critical relative to a standard 20/x2 weapon (this ignores the critical confirmation swing).

Ugh. this is now off topic. However, I can see that better and better uber weapons, while it seems like a good idea, wind up making the game a little hokey, especially for players. It delays the inevitable, as Tyler stated.
Aubri
11-30-05, 10:23 AM The typical way to calculate that is to assume you hit/confirm 50% of the time, since that's an "average" AC compared to your BAB.
And yeah, it doesn't get TOO crazy as long as you're using the basic weapons--a keen scythe isn't terribly abusive. However, if you had a base weapon with 19-20/x3 that could also accept Keen and perhaps Imp. Crit. (if your DM house-rules it so) then it starts to get stupid. Especially if you further enchant it with a Burst ability.

Ultimately, I don't think it's fair to allow more than two steps in either direction. Just as a 5th level fighter can tear up more than his weight in kobolds, an ultra-high critical multiplier gets unbalancing all by itself. (A wide crit range isn't so bad because you'll start missing the AC on threats.)

Sorry about that... I find the statistics side of things very interesting!

<Uncle> One moooore thing! </Uncle> There DO exist weapons that deal extreme damage while being light or one-handed... firearms. If you have a light blade that's dealing greatsword damage, one has to wonder how you made a sword that's as powerful as a handgun! (Yes, I know a sword can, theoretically, deal similar damage, but guns have replaced swords for a good reason... armor penetration being one of the biggies.)
larry_the_titan
11-30-05, 12:32 PM Nice stats erple though it might be better to toss the keen weapons becuase it is an enchantment. and another thing is that a fullblade would only take one feat in 3.0 they would be that way in 3.5 also but that weapon hasnt been released in 3.5 let. Sugliin requires two feats two swing more then once in a round. Plus the reason that a Suliin requirement is becuase it is a reach weapon. Also dont mess with the fullblade I have check to math and it is not overpowered for an exotic weapon.
Aubri
11-30-05, 02:19 PM No, keen weapons are a perfectly valid argument to make--if a weapon can easily be broken with a single +1 enchantment, it's certainly going to be a problem.
A Fullblade was merely a Large bastard sword; I don't see how that COULD be overpowered.
Erple2
11-30-05, 06:30 PM Nice stats erple though it might be better to toss the keen weapons becuase it is an enchantment.

Well, you can also substitute what I put there for "Improved Critical with the weapon" (probably more correctly, given that the improved critical ability can be applied to any weapon, not just piercing/slashing ones). Since they don't stack in 3.5 (keen/imp. crit), I just chose keen since it was fewer characters :)

Oh, and I also kind of like doing the "numerical analysis" on some of the "rules" - what can I say, I'm an Engineer :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KoreKore 11-28-05, 06:26 PM	I have been wondering this for a while. Could you make a wepon so powerfull that it would require multiple feats to use effectivley. ie a super exotic wepon that even with one feat would still get a -4 then with 2 would be no penalty and with the point system with weponds how many would t get i know exotics get 3 so what 4 5 points what could you make? does anyone have any ideas?
Crash01234567890 11-28-05, 06:38 PM	Sure Super Duper Cloudscraping Spiked Chain of the Nine Hells Cost: Priceless and your life as a debt Damage: 4D12+4D10+4D8+4D6+4D4+4D3+4D2+4 Critical: 17-20/x4 Range Increment: 20 Weight: 2 lbs. Type: Piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning Special: Reach of 25 feet and can be used to attack any point within reach. Wielders take a -800 to hit, with the penalties being lessened by five for each feat they spend on proficiency in the weapon. The character must have a least 18 feats in proficiency to be able to attempt an attack with the weapon. Just kidding. Overall I think the idea would be really abusive unless you kept very close attention on it. Overall I could see taking exotic weapons and adding bonuses to them, like making them trip weapons or bonuses to disarm, but bumping damage or crit threats is just a bad idea. For instance Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain Sword Prerequisite: Exotic WP: Bastard Sword BenifitL: THe character may now use the chain swordwith no nonproficiency penalties. The chain sword is a finesable bastard sword that can be used to trip and gains a +2 bonus to disarm.
mvincent 11-28-05, 07:53 PM	Could you make a wepon so powerfull that it would require multiple feats to use effectivley.-A full-blade is an example of a weapon that normally requires multiple feats (or abilities) to use effectively. It is basically a large bastard sword. - I believe mercurial weapons also requires a feat. Unsure if a mercurial bastard sword is possible. - A Mighty Cleaving weapon also requires the Cleave feat to be effective. - Intelligent weapons can be finicky about who can wield them. - Arguably, any weapon can be used more effectively with the addition of multiple feats.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-28-05, 09:19 PM	No. More prerequisites do not make a broken item or ability any less broken, they just delay the inevitable.
jaelis 11-28-05, 11:20 PM	I thought the sugelin or something like that from Races of Stone was an example of what the OP is talking about. But I don't actually have the book, I just recall a discussion about it. Maybe someone could help...?
Bopple 11-28-05, 11:31 PM	Sugliin [Frostburn]. But it's not really that good.
a_psh 11-29-05, 12:36 AM	Sugliin [Frostburn]. But it's not really that good.It's kind of stylish and works great for lowbie minions, though, IIRC. Who doesn't want a big fancy stick with horns and stuff on it?
corysold 11-29-05, 10:30 AM	[QUOTE=Crash01234567890]Sure Super Duper Cloudscraping Spiked Chain of the Nine Hells Cost: Priceless and your life as a debt Damage: 4D12+4D10+4D8+4D6+4D4+4D3+4D2+4 Critical: 17-20/x4 Range Increment: 20 Weight: 2 lbs. Type: Piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning I know this was made up, but, I can see a two sided dice being like a poker chip or a coin, but how can you make a three sided die, is it possible?
Finarin Panjoro 11-29-05, 10:49 AM	but how can you make a three sided die, is it possible? Roll 1d6 and divide by 2 rounding up. So a 1-2 equals a 1, a 3-4 equals a 2, and a 5-6 equals a 3. !d2 is usually rolled on a d6 as well (1-3 equals 1, 4-6 equals 2, etc). You can use a d10 to create a d5 and so on.
phelanarcetus 11-29-05, 11:07 AM	Additional way to make a d3: it's a triangular rod. So it actually has 5 sides, but it can't land on two of them (like a coin landing on edge). /_\ roughly.
Aubri 11-29-05, 11:22 AM	The trouble is that there's an escalating return for each higher level of difficulty to wield an item. For example, a super-exotic light weapon that dealt 2d6 damage would be broken because of the unusual things you can do with a light weapon--fight with two, for example. There's also the question of how you make a mundane weapon that's so far superior to a sword! Notice that the game deliberately leaves out things like a 1d8/x2 light weapon; there's simply a limit on the die size a light weapon can possess. One serious problem is combining extended crits with expanded crits. a 19-20/x3 weapon isn't just worth two bonus steps; I worked this out a while back, and you actually have to multiply them for it to be balanced--it's worth three steps (one step for 19-20, and then multiply the one step to x3 by the number of crit numbers--two more.) A 19-20/x4 would thus be worth 5 steps, and 18-20/x3 is worth 5 as well. Theoretically, a 19-20/x3 for two steps would be balanced if it only got x3 on a natural 20.
Erple2 11-29-05, 05:01 PM	One serious problem is combining extended crits with expanded crits. a 19-20/x3 weapon isn't just worth two bonus steps; I worked this out a while back, and you actually have to multiply them for it to be balanced--it's worth three steps (one step for 19-20, and then multiply the one step to x3 by the number of crit numbers--two more.) A 19-20/x4 would thus be worth 5 steps, and 18-20/x3 is worth 5 as well. Theoretically, a 19-20/x3 for two steps would be balanced if it only got x3 on a natural 20. Yes. It boils down to: 20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk 1 times as often (1x) (mace) 20/x3 - 2 extra damage chunks as often (2x) (battle axe) 20/x4 - 3 extra damage chunks as often (3x) (pick) 19-20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk twice as often (2x) (Longsword) 19-20/x3 - 2 extra damage chunks twice as often (4x) (keen axe) 19-20/x4 - 3 extra damage chunks, 2 times as often (6x) (keen pick) 18-20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk 3 times as often (3x) (scimitar) 17-20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk, 4 times as often (4x) (keen longsword) 15-20/x2 - 1 extra damage chunk, 6 times as often (6x) (keen scimitar) at least, that's what's possible. 19-20/x3 as a base weapon would make it as powerful as a keen axe. Or maybe improved crit axe. I MIGHT allow that in my game as a crazy exotic weapon. But, that means that if you get improved crit with this newfangled weapon, it's now "8x" the damage - 2 extra damage dice, 4 times as often. Note, in all of this, the "4x" or "6x" refers to the expected extra damage due to a critical relative to a standard 20/x2 weapon (this ignores the critical confirmation swing). Ugh. this is now off topic. However, I can see that better and better uber weapons, while it seems like a good idea, wind up making the game a little hokey, especially for players. It delays the inevitable, as Tyler stated.
Aubri 11-30-05, 10:23 AM	The typical way to calculate that is to assume you hit/confirm 50% of the time, since that's an "average" AC compared to your BAB. And yeah, it doesn't get TOO crazy as long as you're using the basic weapons--a keen scythe isn't terribly abusive. However, if you had a base weapon with 19-20/x3 that could also accept Keen and perhaps Imp. Crit. (if your DM house-rules it so) then it starts to get stupid. Especially if you further enchant it with a Burst ability. Ultimately, I don't think it's fair to allow more than two steps in either direction. Just as a 5th level fighter can tear up more than his weight in kobolds, an ultra-high critical multiplier gets unbalancing all by itself. (A wide crit range isn't so bad because you'll start missing the AC on threats.) Sorry about that... I find the statistics side of things very interesting! <Uncle> One moooore thing! </Uncle> There DO exist weapons that deal extreme damage while being light or one-handed... firearms. If you have a light blade that's dealing greatsword damage, one has to wonder how you made a sword that's as powerful as a handgun! (Yes, I know a sword can, theoretically, deal similar damage, but guns have replaced swords for a good reason... armor penetration being one of the biggies.)
larry_the_titan 11-30-05, 12:32 PM	Nice stats erple though it might be better to toss the keen weapons becuase it is an enchantment. and another thing is that a fullblade would only take one feat in 3.0 they would be that way in 3.5 also but that weapon hasnt been released in 3.5 let. Sugliin requires two feats two swing more then once in a round. Plus the reason that a Suliin requirement is becuase it is a reach weapon. Also dont mess with the fullblade I have check to math and it is not overpowered for an exotic weapon.
Aubri 11-30-05, 02:19 PM	No, keen weapons are a perfectly valid argument to make--if a weapon can easily be broken with a single +1 enchantment, it's certainly going to be a problem. A Fullblade was merely a Large bastard sword; I don't see how that COULD be overpowered.
Erple2 11-30-05, 06:30 PM	Nice stats erple though it might be better to toss the keen weapons becuase it is an enchantment. Well, you can also substitute what I put there for "Improved Critical with the weapon" (probably more correctly, given that the improved critical ability can be applied to any weapon, not just piercing/slashing ones). Since they don't stack in 3.5 (keen/imp. crit), I just chose keen since it was fewer characters :) Oh, and I also kind of like doing the "numerical analysis" on some of the "rules" - what can I say, I'm an Engineer :)