Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 02-27-05, 04:51 PM	Questions hiryuu brought up that I think deserves some real discussion. When an elf uses a bow from behind cover, its considered to be "complex tactics" and a sign of intelligent combat. When a goblin shoots from behind cover, its considered being cowardly. Anyone else see a problem with this? Why would a tactic be considered intelligent if used by the PCs, but cheap/cowardly/unfair if the exact same tactic is used by the badguys? Now, in my games, the badguys fight smart, and any tactic the PCs used is fair game to use against them. But the MM specifically notes that the goblins are being cowardly, while the elves are being smart. So, which is it really? A cheap, cowardly tactic, or a very smart one? Personally, I'm going to say its a highly intelligent move that ANY race capable of firing a bow is going to understand and try to do. But still, the double standard is a bit unfair, IMO.
Rowan_Whispercloak 02-27-05, 04:59 PM	Just play Eberron where there is more respect for the "bestial" races. Then it is a smart tactic
Scarlet Knight 02-27-05, 05:00 PM	You're confusing the cause with the effect. The goblin isn't cowardly because he's shoots from behind cover. He's shoots from behind cover because he's cowardly. In this case, he's fighting the same way as the elf does, but his reasons for doing so are different from the elf's.
Vaalingrade Ashland 02-27-05, 05:12 PM	No, the goblin uses cover because he doesn't want an arrow in the liver. The tactic is good because no one wants an arrow in the liver. the reasons are the same.
Edymnion 02-27-05, 05:21 PM	Just play Eberron where there is more respect for the "bestial" races. Then it is a smart tacticI do play Eberron. But, I put this on the generic boards because of the generic issue. Eberron Goblins aren't cowardly, they're even likely to have a monk level or two and whip out some 10,000 year old whoopass on you :)
Scarlet Knight 02-27-05, 05:32 PM	No, the goblin uses cover because he doesn't want an arrow in the liver. The tactic is good because no one wants an arrow in the liver. the reasons are the same. Don't be silly. In the game some characters are going to be "smart and brave" while others are going to be "dumb and cowardly." Sometimes, a smart, brave guy might end up using the exact same tactics as the dumb, cowardly guy. But their reasons for doing so might be entirely different. One might shoot from behind cover because they've determined that is the most effective way acheive victory, while the other will shoot from behind cover because he's too afraid to close with his enemy. The smart guy is still smart and the cowardly guy is still cowardly, they just happen to respond to certain situations in the same way for different reasons.
chocobochicken 02-27-05, 08:54 PM	I think Scarlet Knight said it best. A different line of reasoning lies behind the actions of both races. Elves have long life spans and a practiced affinity with bowmanship, in which a long history of stealth combat tactics has defended elven homesteads for thousands of years. Goblins, on the other hand, are easily frightened and have little understanding for strategy. If they find themselves behind cover, it's not because they assessed it as a tactical advantage -- it's because they were compelled by instinct to run and hide. Yes, even in Eberron the average goblins are probably still considered cowardly. They may be more prominent and have their own nation, but they still bow to the orders of a very small handful of better-than-average leaders and spent thousands of years hiding from occupying forces before the cunning Haruuc led them to the establishment of Darguun. Don't forget what you're comparing here: an experienced elven PC bowman against a CR 1/3, INT 10 NPC armed with a javelin. In any typical comparison, the PC elf should easily outmatch a goblin in tactics, marksmanship, and bravery. It would be erroneous to try treating these two as equals, and this is what the PH and MM are taking into account. Granted, some goblins rise above the others in intelligence and ability, and it's definately conceivable that such a goblin can identify the tactical advantage of ranged attacks behind cover. Last, but not least, what's brave and what's cowardly is really only a matter of opinion that differs between societies, and this kind of moral debate is what fuels DND settings time and again. Granted, a STR 18 samurai can call his opponent a coward for firing arrows from a hidden rooftop position, but would it really be considered "fair" to expect the STR 8 rogue to confront him head-on in a melee battle the samurai knows he can easily win? In the end, what's effective is truly what matters.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-27-05, 09:11 PM	In the end, what's effective is truly what matters. Nicely put. I really liked your samurai example :)
Tony Vargas 02-28-05, 02:03 PM	When an elf uses a bow from behind cover, its considered to be "complex tactics" and a sign of intelligent combat. When a goblin shoots from behind cover, its considered being cowardly. Anyone else see a problem with this? No. Goblins are certainly supposed to be cowardly, and elves are certainly supposed to be arrogant pointy-eared *****...
Ogre4Hire 02-28-05, 02:22 PM	"It's not fair" battle cry of people who hate it when they have their own tricks used against them.
Fenris Frost 03-11-05, 08:16 PM	Bah, get a bow enhanced with Knockback and climb a tree (you have rapid shot, right?). Not exactly cowardly since you're not hiding, though I'd certainly feel like screaming a string of insults upon the honor of the knave who used such tactics against me. Luckily, I'm the ranger in the tree.