Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kimokeo 06-07-06, 06:56 AM	My Barbarian 1/Wizard 3 likes to throw javelins from a Quiver of Ehlonna. In a recent battle between her group and a Frost Giant, she used her whip. The Giant was severely injuring the party's fighters and she decided that perhaps it would be better if the Giant didn't have his Huge Great Axe. In a gutsy move, she moved within 15' and used her whip for a Disarm. Being beyond the Giant's 10 reach, there was no AoO. The round prior to doing this, she had cast True Strike. After all the numbers were calculated, the Giant still had a 20% advantage. She won on the rolls and disarmed the Giant. The Giant chose to use his Slam attack which does significantly less dice damage and was overcome. As a Player or DM, how do you view the use of a Whip? Our DM comes to the boards so I wouldn't be surprised to see an extra comment here. I'm interested in the realm of D&D opinions...
questionc 06-07-06, 08:30 AM	That is... the entire purpose of the whip really. The only thing that seems fishy is being able to use True Strike in conjunction with the disarm opposed roll, but by the RAW it seems to work. And all in all it seems fair. 1) Wizards don't have whip proficiency, so -4. 2) Wizards are (usually) weak, so there's a penalty. 3) Wizards have a low BAB. 4) The result isn't any more significant than that of grease on an item or sleep on the creature. Both lvl 1 spells. While sleep wouldn't work against a Frost Giant, greasing the weapon would have probably worked, so the fact that you could get the same effect in a more roundabout way doesn't seem that big a deal.
jaelis 06-07-06, 09:55 AM	Sounds fair enough to me. You didn't give enough info to check your math on the bonuses, but it should be somewhere near an even chance. But myself, I probably would have let the giant take an AoO on your whip (either a disarm or sunder attempt), which would have used up your true strike bonus. That's following the optional suggestion in the FAQ though, not the core rules. But what was a level 4 character doing fighting a CR 9 frost giant, anyway?
primemover003 06-07-06, 10:22 AM	Some DM's are cruel... My co-DM's threw a CR 11 Blue Dragon at us when we were only 3rd level! It attacked the Town we were in during a festival and several more powerful NPC's were present, making us basically helpers in the fight. Only our barbarian died in the fight and my Jotunbrud Psy warrior managed to keep the dragon grounded with lucky Trip rolls (thank you Expansion!)... But the Whip is one of my favorite weapons. My next character's gonna be a Gnomish Beguiler or Bard with a whip!
J_Riley 06-13-06, 03:37 PM	The character above is the cohort of one of the main PCs (5) who were 6th & 7th level, that's what a 4th level character was doing fighting a Frost Giant. :D BAB was +2, Str was +2, Frost Giant rolled a 7 on the opposed roll. And by the RAW or not, I have a HUGE problem with a 15ft, 2800lbs creature being disarmed by a 100lb elf like thing. Even if the Bar1/Wiz3 were to jump off a tree limb and put all her 100lbs behind it, I doubt it would be enough force to jerk the weapon out of the giant's hand. Since a giant with that strength can lift 1400lbs over his head, I fail to see how 100lbs, even when applied with a huge mechanical advantage could have disarmed the giant. hereafter, whips have been houseruled to 10ft range, problem solved. Large creatures with big strength have 10ft reach, therefore get an AoO and if any damage, no disarm, thanks for playing. I think disarm should be opposed strength checks, not an attack roll...
SlagMortar 06-13-06, 03:45 PM	Given that true strike is a divination spell, perhaps it allowed to wizard to see and strike at the exact moment the giant was shifting his grip on the axe. The whip then wrapped around the giant's thumb for a split second causing the axe to fall.
jaelis 06-13-06, 03:55 PM	The character above is the cohort of one of the main PCs (5) who were 6th & 7th level, that's what a 4th level character was doing fighting a Frost Giant. :D BAB was +2, Str was +2, Frost Giant rolled a 7 on the opposed roll. And by the RAW or not, I have a HUGE problem with a 15ft, 2800lbs creature being disarmed by a 100lb elf like thing. Even if the Bar1/Wiz3 were to jump off a tree limb and put all her 100lbs behind it, I doubt it would be enough force to jerk the weapon out of the giant's hand. Since a giant with that strength can lift 1400lbs over his head, I fail to see how 100lbs, even when applied with a huge mechanical advantage could have disarmed the giant. hereafter, whips have been houseruled to 10ft range, problem solved. Large creatures with big strength have 10ft reach, therefore get an AoO and if any damage, no disarm, thanks for playing. I think disarm should be opposed strength checks, not an attack roll... You have a problem with using a magic spell to disarm a giant, but not with creating an exploding ball of fire, turning invisible, taking over another creature's body, or creating a forest of black tentacles to hold down your opponents? Don't forget, without the spell, you would have had zero chance of pulling this off. But if the AoO thing bothers you, use the rule in the FAQ, that the giant could have taken the AoO against the whip. That would solve the problem. Nerfing the whip isn't a very nice solution, the only thing whips have going for them at all is the 15 ft reach.
tarkin 06-13-06, 04:02 PM	Being beyond the Giant's 10 reach, there was no AoO. The round prior to doing this, she had cast True Strike. Some DM's rule that if you attempt to disarm someone and you are out of reach, they are still allowed to use their AoO to either try and sunder your weapon or disarm you in return, because by defintion, your weapon is within their reach. This does not follow the strict letter of the rules, but it does follow the spirit. The Giant chose to use his Slam attack which does significantly less dice damage and was overcome. Fighting with just the slams, no power attack is foolish. He should have either picked up his weapon (you stole one round from him) or at the least use Power Attack. The power attack is -1/+2 because both Slam attacks are primary, not secondary. That would make him 16/16 for 1d4+13, not quite as good as the 18/13 3d6+13, but not quite as bad either.
Gnarl 06-13-06, 05:15 PM	The power attack is -1/+2 because both Slam attacks are primary, not secondary. Where did you see this? I looked through the power attack feat over and over again and didn't find anything to support this. I could use a quote for my players, they're going to wonder why they're getting mauled more badly than usual :D
Darth_Azalin 06-14-06, 04:28 PM	the power attack -1 for +2 is for both hands.. aka 2 handed weapons.. so I guess the slam is taking both hands and either slamming them into the target or grabbing them and slamming them against something.. both of which would be 2 hands... I personally wouldnt even allow the elf to disarm the giant.. Dont even allow the strength check.. because the giant could always fail...
jaelis 06-14-06, 04:47 PM	Per the FAQ, natural weapons do not get the 2:1 power attack deal: Does a dragon with Power Attack add twice the number subtracted from attack rolls to damage rolls when making a tail slap? No. While it shares some mathematical similarity to a two-handed weapon, the tail slap (or any other natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls) doesn’t gain any other benefits applied to the use of a two-handed weapon. I personally wouldnt even allow the elf to disarm the giant.. Dont even allow the strength check.. because the giant could always fail... What strength check?
Darth_Azalin 06-14-06, 04:59 PM	The strength check they are talking about.. opposed roll not attack roll... And theres a big difference between a tail slap (no hands) and a Slam (2 hands)
SlagMortar 06-14-06, 05:09 PM	If a slam attack is supposed to be using two hands, why do giants get two of them at the same attack bonus? Doesn't that imply two different natural weapons?
jaelis 06-14-06, 05:33 PM	The strength check they are talking about.. opposed roll not attack roll... There is no opposed strength check in the disarm manuever. Which is the whole point: disarming is a function of combat skill. True strike makes you especially skillful, so why shouldn't it work? If it were a strength check, and there were a spell that gave a +20 bonus on your next strength check, would you have any objection to it working here? If a slam attack is supposed to be using two hands, why do giants get two of them at the same attack bonus? Doesn't that imply two different natural weapons? Yes, a giant's slam is not in any way a 2H weapon. Actually, it doesn't even get 1-1/2 x Str bonus. Tarkin was just confused for a moment.
Erak 06-14-06, 05:38 PM	No. While it shares some mathematical similarity to a two-handed weapon, the tail slap (or any other natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls) doesn’t gain any other benefits applied to the use of a two-handed weapon. No 2:1 Power Attack with natural weapons if I am reading that correctly.
Erak 06-14-06, 05:48 PM	Yes, a giant's slam is not in any way a 2H weapon. Actually, it doesn't even get 1-1/2 x Str bonus. Tarkin was just confused for a moment. As their primary natural attack why wouldn't it get 1-1/2 Str? *edit* Nevermind.....it's because they get two slams.
Darth_Azalin 06-14-06, 08:31 PM	There is no opposed strength check in the disarm manuever. Which is the whole point: disarming is a function of combat skill. True strike makes you especially skillful, so why shouldn't it work? If it were a strength check, and there were a spell that gave a +20 bonus on your next strength check, would you have any objection to it working here? Yes, a giant's slam is not in any way a 2H weapon. Actually, it doesn't even get 1-1/2 x Str bonus. Tarkin was just confused for a moment. Well someone asked me what check.. and it was in the discussion... Now in my campaigns.. the little elf even with godly intervention.. wouldn't have the strength to pull or rip a HUGE great axe out of the giants hands.. Hell I would have to say the Giant wouldnt even feel the attempt.. You can say thats house ruling.. but I say its RULE ZERO!!! Also .. to have it not even reach that point.. once the whip gets within the giants threat range.. he SUNDERS .. and as a dm you dont need to roll dice.. You say its a hit.. and you destroy the whip.. there end of discussion...
Kimokeo 06-14-06, 09:17 PM	The issue isn't whether the little elf had the strength to disarm the giant. It was a challenge of attack rolls. If you change the rule to a strength check, a fighter of 20th level with a strength of 18 would disarm as well as a fighter of 1st level with a strength of 18. AND, the 1st level fighter could disarm the 20th level fighter on equal footing. The attack roll makes the difference. The True Strike spell adds 20 to the attack roll. End of story. The giant still had the advantage. So, like I said before, it was a gusty move. As for Sundering her weapon or disarming her - you can't since it ain't your turn. The whip provokes an attack of opportunity. The key word is provokes . You must threaten the square to take the AoO. Unless the rules have changed regarding AoO's, you're making up house rules. Picking up his weapon of the ground would provoke AoO's from anyone threatening the Giant's square (which in this situation I think two fighters were sitting on his doorstep). Drawing a weapon on a move would have been a better choice. His hands were still lethal - but he died before he could take that whip and strangle the little elf. Plus, my DM did explain why a Frost Giant was beating us up at 4th. My little elf is the only 4th. The rest are 7th (of course if I keep this up, she may become my primary character instead of cohort... :eek: or worse).
Grasshopper_ea 06-19-06, 11:45 PM	In Kali there's a saying, break the hand and the stick will fall. With a +20 to hit (skill of a level 20 fighter) the elf could precisely place the tip of the whip between the giant's finger and fingernail causing a sharp sudden pain in which it dropped the weapon. Actually trying to physically take the weapon by force or technique is exteemly difficult. Taking it by roundabout methods is much simpler.
ShinAkuma2 06-20-06, 01:30 PM	Also .. to have it not even reach that point.. once the whip gets within the giants threat range.. he SUNDERS .. and as a dm you dont need to roll dice.. You say its a hit.. and you destroy the whip.. there end of discussion... This is just screwing over a player for no reason. As DM, you have fiat to do anything. However, that doesn't mean you should. You should do it when it's good for the game, not when it's good for you. It sounds like you're playing "You vs the players" by saying, "Ha, I automatically destroy your stuff when you do something I don't like". Why not just say, "Rocks fall, you die, I win," and get it over with?