Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BaelinWhale 02-25-07, 04:36 PM	Under normal circumstances, a ghost with the draining touch attack supernatural ability does 1d4 points of ability damage to a foe it attacks. But what happens if the ghost in question is under an effect that increases the damage dealt (an actual increase to damage, not extra damage such as by a sneak attack or sudden strike). For example, assume that the ghost in question has an amulet of mighty fists which grants a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage for all its natural weapons, would it then deal 1d4+1 points of ability damage or would it deal 1d4 points of ability plus one extra point of hit point damage? I know that ability damage as well as bonus damage from enhancements are multiplied during a Critical Hit. I'm also aware that extra damage, such as from a sneak attack, will deal extra hit point damage based on the type of damage dealt (eg. fire, negative energy, force, etc). As far as I can see, though, there's no precedent for adjudicating this kind of extra damage. Please help. :(
SALDAR 02-25-07, 05:04 PM	The amulet, or any item that increases damage or ability that gives extra damage dice, would not increase the damage. The ghost's draining is not a weapon attack, it is a supernatural ability (although the ability can do critical damage). Only those things that increase the damage of supernatural abilities would apply.
jaelis 02-25-07, 09:12 PM	Saldar makes a good point, but on the other hand bonus damage like this (from say, point blank shot) applies to spells, which aren't really weapons either. The bonus damage should always be hit point damage though, I would say. In the case of a ghost though, I think you'd get no bonus damage from the amulet at all unless it has corrupting touch. If the weapon doesn't do any damage to begin with, then there's nothing to modify. (Kind of like a +1 net doesn't get the +1 to damage... even if it's a +1 flaming net.)
risner 02-25-07, 09:29 PM	it deal 1d4 points of ability plus one extra point of hit point damage? Yes
tiluvias99 02-26-07, 03:47 AM	The Ghost's Draining Touch ability is secondary damage- in that, the base (primary) damage is the damage from his incorporeal touch attack, which happens to deal 1d6 points of lethal damage. Anything that modifies damage directly (as opposed to adding secondary damage, such as with the flaming enhancement) only modifies the primary damage, and the secondary damage is unaffected- as it itself is also an "add-on". The exception to this is that, when a spell has a base damage that deals damage other than hit point damage, when sneak attack is applied (normally a base damage modifier), the extra damage is almost always negative energy (hit point) damage instead of being the same as the base damage. Note that everything changes in the case of the Shadow. If you find ways to increase the Shadow's base damage, it does apply to his strength damage. See the link in my sig on "The Shadow's Hidden Power" for a much more detailed explanation of how this works.
BaelinWhale 02-26-07, 04:37 AM	Thanks
risner 02-26-07, 12:21 PM	See the link in my sig on "The Shadow's Hidden Power" for a much more detailed explanation of how this works. Except for the fact most people disagree with his theory of the base damage type is retained instead of applying hit point damage when the feat applied hit point damage.
Moribund 02-26-07, 05:24 PM	According to the Complete Arcane, if you sneak attack with spells that deal ability damage or negative levels the extra damage you deal is negative energy damage. You could extend the same to bonus damage such as from Point Blank Shot.
risner 02-26-07, 08:14 PM	You could extend the same to bonus damage such as from Point Blank Shot. As well you should, since Point Blank Shot is hit points damage just like every other feat or ability that lists damage without specifying a type in front of the damage.
tiluvias99 02-27-07, 03:03 PM	Except for the fact most people disagree with his theory of the base damage type is retained instead of applying hit point damage when the feat applied hit point damage.Just following a pattern. When you deal +1 damage with a weapon that deals slashing damage, you deal +1 slashing damage- not (using a longsword as an example) 1d8 slashing damage +1 hit point damage. Likewise, when you deal +1 damage with a weapon that deals piercing damage, you deal +1 piercing damage- not (using a spear as an example) 1d8 piercing damage +1 hit point damage Likewise, when you deal +1 damage with a weapon that deals strength damage, you deal +1 strength damage- not (using a Shadow's Strength draining touch as an example) 1d6 strength damage +1 hit point damage. If damage is a type other than the weapon's base damage, it is always specified. Example: the flaming enhancement adds fire damage, and the sneak attack ability adds to base damage OR adds extra negative energy (hit point) damage when applied to a spell. I'm hijacking the thread though. Sorry.
risner 02-27-07, 07:25 PM	I'm hijacking the thread though. Sorry. And you are wrong. I fixed your post: deal +1 damage with piercing weapon, you deal +1 piercing "hit point damage" deal +1 damage on a weapon that deals ability damage, you deal +1 "hit point damage" In other words, you have zero evidence to back your side up. There has been a thread where you could show zero evidence to back it up. If you asked WotC, they would fall down the same line they did for Sneak Attack and rule the damage is negative energy damage if the base weapon did no hit point damage. Your best way to look at it is an ability that does 0 hit points damage + 1dX strength ability damage.
tiluvias99 02-27-07, 08:16 PM	If you think I have zero evidence, then you obviously did not read the thread that I linked. There is an extreme amount of evidence. For 99.9% of damage boosters, they simply say +1 damage. Not +1 hit point damage. +1 Damage. Ability Damage is a type of damage. And there is no reason to even infer that it actually means "+1 hit point damage"- you are simply making that up. There is nothing in the rules saying that "damage" always means "hit point damage", and there is considerable evidence to the contrary. If something says it applies to cars, then it applies to all cars, not just Hondas, unless specifically noted. And that specific note happens to be absent. Also note that, in the Combat Section under "Damage", it says "Effects that modify weapon damage apply to.. the natural physical attack forms of creatures." So the effects obviously apply to the Shadow's strength draining touch, as that is his natural physical attack.Your best way to look at it is an ability that does 0 hit points damage + 1dX strength ability damage.Right. Except that the Shadow's description doesn't say "0 + 1d6 Str", it says "1d6 Str".
risner 02-28-07, 03:50 AM	For 99.9% of damage boosters, they simply say +1 damage. I was on the original 3 page thread where you tried very unsuccessfully to prove your point. You couldn't prove your case then. If a damage value is listed, it is hit point damage unless otherwise specified. If you want to continue this quest, then get Ask Wizards to comment on your position or add it to the FAQ. Otherwise you are out in a field of unproven land with no evidence to back up your position. You need to post the SRD or book/page where it explicitly says all feats that add damage add ability damage instead. There isn't a shread of evidence to support your position.
tiluvias99 02-28-07, 05:40 PM	If a damage value is listed, it is hit point damage unless otherwise specified.Source, please? I can't find this rule anywhere. Oh, and note the line in the second paragraph of the damage section on page 134 completely contradicts everything else stated in the rules, if that's what you were thinking. Specifically, in regards to Non-Lethal Damage and to ability damage.You need to post the SRD or book/page where it explicitly says all feats that add damage add ability damage instead. There isn't a shread of evidence to support your position.So, essentially, what you're saying is that if someone makes an invention that can cause a car to go 5 mph faster than normal, I can only apply it to Hondas, not Fords, becuase when they said "cars" they actually meant Hondas. Bullsh*t. They don't need to say that something that adds to damage also adds to ability damage, because it would be completely redundant, just like saying that the invention that makes cars go 5 mph faster also applies to Fords. Damage =! hit point damage. Hit Point Damage is a type of damage, just as ability damage is. Hondas and Fords are both cars: If you improve the speed of a car, then you improve the speed of both Hondas and Fords. Same with Damage. Same with everything, unless explicity stated. And unless you can find something that explicitly says that it doesn't work this way; that all bonus damage is always "hit point damage" and not just "damage", then you're simply wrong. Oh, and something else: With what you're saying, it's impossible to add to non-lethal damage, becuase any damage modifiers are always "hit point damage". Think about that.
risner 02-28-07, 11:05 PM	Source, please? I can't find this rule anywhere. And unless you can find something that explicitly says that it doesn't work this way; that all bonus damage is always "hit point damage" and not just "damage", then you're simply wrong. Sure: PHB p134 "Damage reduces a target’s current hit points. " PHB p307 "three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage." If you see the word "Damage" anywhere and it is not qualified as "non lethal" or "ability", then it is de facto standard "lethal" damage. The PHB on page 134 is quite clear on many things: 1) Unless specified all damage is lethal hit point damage of the specified type of the base weapon or some type that makes sense (like what they do for Sneak Attack damage when the type is not lethal damage.) 2) Critical would add a second roll of the base damage (in the case of a Shadow, a second roll of ability damage.) 3) Any additional bonus damage from feats or abilities the Shadow may have would be lethal damage of whichever type makes sense (in the case of a Shadow probably negative energy hit point damage.) Your way of interpreting this is not consistent with RAW, with Rules as Intended, nor does it provide for a balanced game.
tiluvias99 03-02-07, 04:22 PM	Sure: PHB p134 "Damage reduces a target’s current hit points. " PHB p307 "three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage." If you see the word "Damage" anywhere and it is not qualified as "non lethal" or "ability", then it is de facto standard "lethal" damage.First off, the 1st quote is completely contradictory to everything within the PHB about damage. Damage does not just reduce a target's hit points; it can also add to their non-lethal damage count or reduce their ability scores. Let me ask you: A fighter takes Weapon Specialization for the Sap. Are you saying that he would deal an extra two points of lethal damage, instead of non-lethal damage? Here's another thing. Things like Weapon Specialization do not say "+1 damage", they say "+1 to damage rolls". If your damage roll is for non-lethal damage, then you add non-lethal damage, because the roll itself determines the non-lethal damage taken. If your damage roll is ability damage, then you add ability damage, because the roll determines the ability damage taken. Likewise, there are numerous examples where "damage" is used in reference to ability damage without directly specifying so. I can point out some examples of this if you wish.Your way of interpreting this is not consistent with RAW, with Rules as Intended, nor does it provide for a balanced game.I disagree with this on all counts. First off, the RAW itself is inconsistent, and one of the sides definitely supports my position. Secondly, I don't think you have the ability to say what "Rules as Intended" is, considering point three- which is that this actually isn't all that unbalanced. There aren't that many ways to boost damage directly, and remember, Shadows have an ECL of 10. That's F***ing huge; it should be worth something.
risner 03-02-07, 06:11 PM	First off, the 1st quote is completely contradictory to everything within the PHB about damage. Damage does not just reduce a target's hit points; it can also add to their non-lethal damage count or reduce their ability scores. That is a misleading statement. That section details damage (both lethal and non-lethal) so anything you said regarding those types is false. They both reduce hit points. Ability damage is classified as a subtype of damage and requires the type to be specified. You will not find a WotC support place where ability damage is listed as "damage", they will all be "Con damage" or "ability damage", they will never be "damage". Third, your point where you add additional ability damage is when you are required to re-roll the original damage. If you crit while delivering 1d6 Con damage, you roll 2d6 Con damage. If you hit crit while delivering 1d6 Con Damage and something that does +1 damage, you deal 2d6 Con Damage and 2 (probably Negative) lethal hit point damage. If you can give a single example where they list an ability damage as "+1 damage" or "+1d6 damage" and not use the word ability damage or Con damage or some other word to strongly suggest it is only ability damage, you may have a point. I have asked you to provide links in the past to proof this. You have yet to provide any links that prove that point and the ones you did, proved my side.
tiluvias99 03-02-07, 06:25 PM	That is a misleading statement. That section details damage (both lethal and non-lethal) so anything you said regarding those types is false. They both reduce hit pointsNon-Lethal Damage doesn't lower your hit points. They don't interact in any way, aside from that when your non-lethal damage count equals your hit points, you fall unconscious. Ability damage is classified as a subtype of damage and requires the type to be specified. You will not find a WotC support place where ability damage is listed as "damage", they will all be "Con damage" or "ability damage", they will never be "damage". ... If you can give a single example where they list an ability damage as "+1 damage" or "+1d6 damage" and not use the word ability damage or Con damage or some other word to strongly suggest it is only ability damage, you may have a point. I have asked you to provide links in the past to proof this. You have yet to provide any links that prove that point and the ones you did, proved my side.Done.Ability Damage: A temporary loss of 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 point per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage.Many undead creatures have the ability to damage or drain their foes' ability scores. For some creatures (particularily incorporeal ones), this serves as their primary method of dealing damage.…If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice)…Good enough for you?Third, your point where you add additional ability damage is when you are required to re-roll the original damage. If you crit while delivering 1d6 Con damage, you roll 2d6 Con damage. If you hit crit while delivering 1d6 Con Damage and something that does +1 damage, you deal 2d6 Con Damage and 2 (probably Negative) lethal hit point damage.Uh... what? Sorry, brain fart on my part, but what part of what I said are you referencing? I'd still like you to cover these, if you can:Let me ask you: A fighter takes Weapon Specialization for the Sap. Are you saying that he would deal an extra two points of lethal damage, instead of non-lethal damage? Here's another thing. Things like Weapon Specialization do not say "+1 damage", they say "+1 to damage rolls". If your damage roll is for non-lethal damage, then you add non-lethal damage, because the roll itself determines the non-lethal damage taken. If your damage roll is ability damage, then you add ability damage, because the roll determines the ability damage taken.
risner 03-03-07, 09:36 AM	Non-Lethal Damage doesn't lower your hit points. Non-Lethal Hit Points behaves exactly as Hit Points. You are considered to have two different hit point pools (lethal and non-lethal.) So your previous statements are misleading and are not consistent with RAW. PHB p146. Originally Posted by 3.5 Player's Handbook Glossary, Page 304 Again, this proves my point. It is labeled as "Ability Damage", there is zero evidence to support any suggestion that "Damage" means "Ability Damage". Originally Posted by Libris Mortis, Pages 137-138 Originally Posted by 3.5 Monster Manual Glossary, Page 305 You have quoted these to me before, but they are not the type of evidence to prove your side. You need to to quote me a usage similar to the way you wish to use the words. You need to quote me a creature like this: Incorporeal Touch +3 melee 1d6 Strength Damage (Su):The touch of a scarecrow deals 1d8 points of damage to a living foe. You need to show cases where they describe an attack in detail including the damage amount and fail to make it clear if that attack is hit point damage (lethal or nonlethal) or ability damage. You will find there is no such passage. Let me ask you: A fighter takes Weapon Specialization for the Sap. Are you saying that he would deal an extra two points of lethal damage, instead of non-lethal damage? You are again, trying to mislead. +2 damage when applied to a nonlethal sap is +2 nonlethal damage, because nonlethal is still hit point damage.
tiluvias99 03-03-07, 03:16 PM	Non-Lethal Damage is not Hit Point damage. They are completely seperate things, akin to the seperation between hit point damage and Ability Damage. If you take Non-Lethal Damage, your hit points have not been reduced. The only thing that changes as a result of taking X amount of Non-Lethal Damage is that your Non-Lethal damage count goes up by X. Character Bob has 60 hit points. He takes 25 points of non-lethal damage. He still has 60 hit points. Saying that Non-Lethal Damage is different than Hit Point damage is not misleading; it is fact, by the RAW. Damage does NOT reduce a target's hit points. The line in the PHB that you are basing your entire arguement around is contradictory with everything else in the core books. Non-Lethal Damage and Ability Damage, while both types of Damage, have absolutely no effect on how many hit points that you have, the exception to that being that Constitution damage lowers hit points. And you still haven't touched this:Here's another thing. Things like Weapon Specialization do not say "+1 damage", they say "+1 to damage rolls". If your damage roll is for non-lethal damage, then you add non-lethal damage, because the roll itself determines the non-lethal damage taken. If your damage roll is ability damage, then you add ability damage, because the roll determines the ability damage taken.
risner 03-03-07, 10:04 PM	Non-Lethal Damage is not Hit Point damage. You are intentionally trying to mislead by saying unrelated things? You have Lethal Hit Points and Nonlethal Hit Points. They are unrelated and are managed separately, but they are by RAW both hit point damage. Nonlethal hit points make you unconscious when you hit 0, but can never kill you no matter how much damage you take.
tiluvias99 03-03-07, 10:21 PM	You are intentionally trying to mislead by saying unrelated things? You have Lethal Hit Points and Nonlethal Hit Points. They are unrelated and are managed separately, but they are by RAW both hit point damage. Nonlethal hit points make you unconscious when you hit 0, but can never kill you no matter how much damage you take.Here's something for you. Look at page 146, near the center of the second column:Do not reduct the non-lethal damage number from your current hit points. There is no such thing as "non lethal damage hit points". Non-Lethal damage does nothing except raises your non-lethal score. There is no "non-lethal damage hit points". RTFM, man.
risner 03-04-07, 09:38 AM	RTFM, man. I did, same to you. READ THE BOOK. You do not get to claim a false point just because it helps you make your point.
tiluvias99 03-04-07, 11:50 AM	Here then, I'll play your game. Find me a quote, from anywhere within the books, referencing anything, that says "Non-Lethal Hit Points." I don't care what context it's in either. You do not get to make up rules and call them RAW.
tiluvias99 03-05-07, 03:35 PM	Ga-bump. I'm waiting Risner. I'm not even asking for a quotation stating that there are "non-lethal hit points", like you are asking me of for Ability Damage. All I'm for is just asking for a single mention of them from anywhere. And if you can't find it, then you'll have to either say that non-lethal damage subtracts from your hit points (because "damage reduces a target's hit points") and that ability damage also subtracts from your hit points (because, again, "damage reduces a target's hit points"), which is straight up absurd, or you can say that that line is contradictory and false, in which case I am correct. edit: Oh, still waiting on this too:Here's another thing. Things like Weapon Specialization do not say "+1 damage", they say "+1 to damage rolls". If your damage roll is for non-lethal damage, then you add non-lethal damage, because the roll itself determines the non-lethal damage taken. If your damage roll is ability damage, then you add ability damage, because the roll determines the ability damage taken.If you add to the damage roll, then it is "1d6+1" or "2-7", not "1d6" and "1 extra", unless specifically mentioned (like in the case of the flaming enhancement).