ability drain, endless ghost healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

ability drain, endless ghost healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rironin
02-23-06, 01:58 PM I am writing my own program to handle npcs and monsters in game, and I came up with some odd questions about ability damage and ability drain. I seem to see a way certain creatures, mostly undead, could tap into an infinite healing or otherwise beneficial loop.

Ability scores can't go negative, and when they reach zero that's it - and likewise, ability damage or drain can never exceed your score. If you have a 16 Dexterity, you cannot be drained of 18 points of Dexterity - once you're drained of 16 points, your Dexterity is at 0, there is nothing left to drain, and it's left at that. If you were to be healed via Restoration or some similar spell, you would need to heal 16 points of Dexterity, not 18, even though the original attack that drained the Deterity might've been enough to drain 18 points. This makes sense to me (and I'm writing it just to make sure - this conforms to RAW right?).

My thoughts get a little cloudy when it comes to items that increase ability scores and spells that do the same. These aren't permanent effects - gauntlets of ogre power may provide you with a +2 bonus to Strength as long as you wear them, but as soon as you take them off it's gone. What happens when abilities that are augmented with items or spells are damaged or drained? Assuming you had a Constitution of 18 and a +2 Periapt of Wisdom, you'd have a Constitution of 20 and it would take 20 points of ability damage or ability drain to reduce your Constitution to 0 and kill you. I believe this is supported by the rules. But if only 2 points of Constitution are drained, where does the drain come from? Play-wise, it seems that the drained Con comes from you, and not your item, since everyone would agree that if you were drained of 2 Con in this situation and then took off your Periapt of Health, your Con would be reduced by 2. That is, the attack that drained 2 Con didn't drain it from the Periapt but from your body. But if 18 points of Con were drained, supposedly from your body, you'd still have a Con score of 2 and still be alive, entirely thanks to your Periapt of Health. Removing the Periapt would kill you. So 18 points of Con were drained from you, and then 2 points were drained from your Periapt? Well, not really... the Periapt would still work on someone else, so the Con wasn't drained from it... it wasn't containing two points of Constitution which could be removed. As long as you're alive, the Periapt takes your normal Con score and enhances it, increasing it by 2. If your Con were 0 you'd be dead, and putting a Periapt on your neck wouldn't help, because, well, you'd be dead. If you were magically resurrected, your Con would be 2 higher than it would've been otherwise because the Periapt would be on your neck enhancing your Con. Right?

But what if it were another ability, like Strength? If you had a 16 Strength and wore a Belt of Giant Strength +4, you'd have a Strength of 20. You are then attacked by a group of ghosts and their Necromancer leader. The ghosts all have the Draining Touch ability, which allows them to drain 1d4 points of an ability with their touch, and heal 5 points of damage with each successful touch. The ghosts mob you, using their Draining Touch repeatedly until your Strength has been completely drained and is at 0. At this point, you're not dead, but you're completely paralyzed. The Necromancer comes in and ties you up, and then removes your Belt of Giant Strength. Under normal circumstances you'd lose 4 Strength, but you're already at 0 and can't go negative, so your Strength remains at 0. Then the Necromancer puts the belt back on you. You immediately gain +4 to Strength, which gives you a Strength of 4 (still very weak - not strong enough to break free from the bonds). Then the Necromancer allows his ghosts to tap you a few times and heal themselves, bringing you back down to 0 Strength and paralyzing you. Then he removes the belt (Str remains 0), replaces it (Str goes up to 4), and the ghosts heal again, as many times as needed.

This seems like an odd loophole to me, and I was wondering if it were closed or not. The item here seems to be providing "food" in the form of energy/healing/resources to the ghosts, for free. By removing it and replacing the belt, the Strength keeps getting boosted and since it can't dip below zero, there's no "debt" of Strength - fusion power for ghosts (not terribly efficient, but still). I don't know how a loophole like this could be closed, or if it even should be - my example is pretty out there, I admit, but it could be used by any creature that benefits from draining an ability score other than Constitution (since losing all your Con kills you, and at that point, even a Periapt of Health wouldn't bring you back to life). I don't know if there are any character classes or abilities that mimic this and could therefore be used by players for endless gain. If so, it might be a somewhat more prevalent problem, especially since you could easily use this on some small, weak, carryable creature.

I am not sure how to prevent this from happening without doing something bad to the rules. Ability scores augmented with items or spells should be fully drainable - that is, the points added via magic should still count, and be subject to damage or drain. Ideas? Thoughts? Did I just miss a rule somewhere? Thanks
Ozymandias V.
02-23-06, 06:34 PM The items increase your effective score.

They do NOT prevent it from reaching 0.
rironin
02-23-06, 06:57 PM The items increase your effective score.

They do NOT prevent it from reaching 0.
Yes, I'm well aware of that. In fact, it's partly due to that fact that I believe what I've outlined above is possible. Since abilities cannot drop below 0, if you are drained of all of your Strength (for instance) and then remove a Strength bonus item, your score cannot decrease any lower. If you then put the item (a belt of giant strength +4, for instance) back on, your score would increase (from 0) to 4 again. Then your Strength could be drained again. Then you remove the belt of giant strength, put it back on, and go back up to 4 Strength. You could do this over and over. This would allow the ghosts (or other creatures that benefit from ability draining) to repeatedly drain you of your Strength and then replenish it using your stat item.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rironin 02-23-06, 01:58 PM	I am writing my own program to handle npcs and monsters in game, and I came up with some odd questions about ability damage and ability drain. I seem to see a way certain creatures, mostly undead, could tap into an infinite healing or otherwise beneficial loop. Ability scores can't go negative, and when they reach zero that's it - and likewise, ability damage or drain can never exceed your score. If you have a 16 Dexterity, you cannot be drained of 18 points of Dexterity - once you're drained of 16 points, your Dexterity is at 0, there is nothing left to drain, and it's left at that. If you were to be healed via Restoration or some similar spell, you would need to heal 16 points of Dexterity, not 18, even though the original attack that drained the Deterity might've been enough to drain 18 points. This makes sense to me (and I'm writing it just to make sure - this conforms to RAW right?). My thoughts get a little cloudy when it comes to items that increase ability scores and spells that do the same. These aren't permanent effects - gauntlets of ogre power may provide you with a +2 bonus to Strength as long as you wear them, but as soon as you take them off it's gone. What happens when abilities that are augmented with items or spells are damaged or drained? Assuming you had a Constitution of 18 and a +2 Periapt of Wisdom, you'd have a Constitution of 20 and it would take 20 points of ability damage or ability drain to reduce your Constitution to 0 and kill you. I believe this is supported by the rules. But if only 2 points of Constitution are drained, where does the drain come from? Play-wise, it seems that the drained Con comes from you, and not your item, since everyone would agree that if you were drained of 2 Con in this situation and then took off your Periapt of Health, your Con would be reduced by 2. That is, the attack that drained 2 Con didn't drain it from the Periapt but from your body. But if 18 points of Con were drained, supposedly from your body, you'd still have a Con score of 2 and still be alive, entirely thanks to your Periapt of Health. Removing the Periapt would kill you. So 18 points of Con were drained from you, and then 2 points were drained from your Periapt? Well, not really... the Periapt would still work on someone else, so the Con wasn't drained from it... it wasn't containing two points of Constitution which could be removed. As long as you're alive, the Periapt takes your normal Con score and enhances it, increasing it by 2. If your Con were 0 you'd be dead, and putting a Periapt on your neck wouldn't help, because, well, you'd be dead. If you were magically resurrected, your Con would be 2 higher than it would've been otherwise because the Periapt would be on your neck enhancing your Con. Right? But what if it were another ability, like Strength? If you had a 16 Strength and wore a Belt of Giant Strength +4, you'd have a Strength of 20. You are then attacked by a group of ghosts and their Necromancer leader. The ghosts all have the Draining Touch ability, which allows them to drain 1d4 points of an ability with their touch, and heal 5 points of damage with each successful touch. The ghosts mob you, using their Draining Touch repeatedly until your Strength has been completely drained and is at 0. At this point, you're not dead, but you're completely paralyzed. The Necromancer comes in and ties you up, and then removes your Belt of Giant Strength. Under normal circumstances you'd lose 4 Strength, but you're already at 0 and can't go negative, so your Strength remains at 0. Then the Necromancer puts the belt back on you. You immediately gain +4 to Strength, which gives you a Strength of 4 (still very weak - not strong enough to break free from the bonds). Then the Necromancer allows his ghosts to tap you a few times and heal themselves, bringing you back down to 0 Strength and paralyzing you. Then he removes the belt (Str remains 0), replaces it (Str goes up to 4), and the ghosts heal again, as many times as needed. This seems like an odd loophole to me, and I was wondering if it were closed or not. The item here seems to be providing "food" in the form of energy/healing/resources to the ghosts, for free. By removing it and replacing the belt, the Strength keeps getting boosted and since it can't dip below zero, there's no "debt" of Strength - fusion power for ghosts (not terribly efficient, but still). I don't know how a loophole like this could be closed, or if it even should be - my example is pretty out there, I admit, but it could be used by any creature that benefits from draining an ability score other than Constitution (since losing all your Con kills you, and at that point, even a Periapt of Health wouldn't bring you back to life). I don't know if there are any character classes or abilities that mimic this and could therefore be used by players for endless gain. If so, it might be a somewhat more prevalent problem, especially since you could easily use this on some small, weak, carryable creature. I am not sure how to prevent this from happening without doing something bad to the rules. Ability scores augmented with items or spells should be fully drainable - that is, the points added via magic should still count, and be subject to damage or drain. Ideas? Thoughts? Did I just miss a rule somewhere? Thanks
Ozymandias V. 02-23-06, 06:34 PM	The items increase your effective score. They do NOT prevent it from reaching 0.
rironin 02-23-06, 06:57 PM	The items increase your effective score. They do NOT prevent it from reaching 0. Yes, I'm well aware of that. In fact, it's partly due to that fact that I believe what I've outlined above is possible. Since abilities cannot drop below 0, if you are drained of all of your Strength (for instance) and then remove a Strength bonus item, your score cannot decrease any lower. If you then put the item (a belt of giant strength +4, for instance) back on, your score would increase (from 0) to 4 again. Then your Strength could be drained again. Then you remove the belt of giant strength, put it back on, and go back up to 4 Strength. You could do this over and over. This would allow the ghosts (or other creatures that benefit from ability draining) to repeatedly drain you of your Strength and then replenish it using your stat item.