ability drain [Archive] - Wizards Community

ability drain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tony111
07-30-05, 04:11 PM Suppose that my wisdom is 18 (druid) and I take two wisdom drain/damage, reducing my wisdom to 16.

Q1: Do I immediately lose a fourth level spell slot?
Q2: If Q1 = yes, then which slot is lost?
Q3: If Q1 = yes, then what happens if I have some fourth level spells that I already cast and some that are uncast? Can I choose to lose a slot that I have already lost for the day [cutting my losses in the near term]?

Please note that I am aware that ifs my wisdom has been reduced to 16, I will not get (I will lose) my bonus fourth level slot when I prepare spells the next morning. These questions pertain to what happens in the near term; the time between when I take the wisdom damage/drain until when I try to next prepare spells.

Cite a source if you could. I could not find the relevant material.

-Tony
Nom
07-30-05, 08:25 PM Suppose that my wisdom is 18 (druid) and I take two wisdom drain/damage, reducing my wisdom to 16.

Q1: Do I immediately lose a fourth level spell slot?
Q2: If Q1 = yes, then which slot is lost?
Q3: If Q1 = yes, then what happens if I have some fourth level spells that I already cast and some that are uncast? Can I choose to lose a slot that I have already lost for the day [cutting my losses in the near term]?

Q1: Yes, you immediately lose your bonus 4th level slot. PH pg 10: "When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly".

For a precedent on how this works, see FAQ pg 2 and turning checks per day. At each point, your current "attempts per day" is compared to how many attempts you've already expended. If the difference is in your favour, you can make further attempts. If not, you can't.

Note that it works similarly to hit points. When your total hp changes, your damage stays the same, and thus your current hp must change to match. If I have 8 (rolled) + 2 (Con) hp and 4 damage (thus 6 current hp) and my Con drops from 14 to 8 then my maxiumum hp drop from 10 to 7 and my current hp drop from 6 to 3. Similarly, if I have 3 + 2 (Cha) attempts per day and have already made 2 (thus 3 remaining) and my Cha drops from 14 to 8 then my attempts per day drop from 5 to 2 and I have no attempts remaining (until my Cha is restored).

So, Q2 and Q3: you lose a slot, and the slot that is lost must be an uncast slot if you have one available (since the number of spells that you can cast has been reduced). A similar precedent occurs with negative levels (DMG pg 293), where the lost spell is the highest level uncast spell.

What is not well covered is what happens when the ability score is restored (especially in the case of ability damage/drain, not just penalties). I play that any lost slots are regained in the state that they were lost, assuming a preparation period has not occurred in the interim. Others play that they are permanently lost. I'm not aware of a good precedent.
Tony111
07-31-05, 05:22 PM O.K. that makes some sense.

Just to be clear, how would you handle this situation:

total slots_________already cast____________uncast

4th level = 2__________1_____________________1
3rd level = 3__________1_____________________2
2nd level = 4__________0_____________________4
1st level = 5__________2_____________________3

O.K., now suppose the guy gets hits by a spectre and loses gains two negative energy levels. Are you saying he loses the uncast fourth level slot and one uncast third level slot [instead of both fourth level slots]?

Or if he takes four ability damage (reducing wisdom from 19 to 15) he loses the uncast fourth level slot and one of the uncast third levels slots. Correct? Ouch!

-Tony
Nom
08-01-05, 12:25 AM O.K., now suppose the guy gets hits by a spectre and loses gains two negative energy levels. Are you saying he loses the uncast fourth level slot and one uncast third level slot [instead of both fourth level slots]?I'm actually undecided on how to rule this one, since the rules themselves are IMO ambiguous. The first spell lost is definitely the uncast 4th level one. Consider that negative levels are temporary, I think I'd take an uncast 3rd level slot as the 2nd.
Or if he takes four ability damage (reducing wisdom from 19 to 15) he loses the uncast fourth level slot and one of the uncast third levels slots. Correct? Ouch!Correct. He's lost 1 4th level slot and 1 3rd level slot due to reduced wisdom, so he also loses the spells to match.
Father Dale
08-01-05, 10:50 AM I think the negative levels/spell slot question was answered in one of the FAQs or in Rules of the Game or something.

You lose spell slots from negative levels in a particular order. You first start losing your highest level uncast slots. Once there are no more of these left, you lose your highest level already cast slots. Once all the slots from your highest level are gone, you move to the uncast slots from your second highest level. Then to your second highest level already cast slots.

Using the Example above with the Chart, if the character were hit with one negative level he would lose his 4th lvl uncast slot. If hit with two he would lose both the 4th lvl slots, the cast and the uncast one. If hit with three negative levels he would lose all the 4th lvl slots and one 3rd lvl uncast slot. And so forth.

This also fits in well with the idea of negative levels. You are "losing" levels, and your casting ability is based on your "levels." It would make no sense to lose only uncast slots, as the next day you would have lost some slots lower than what you still have available. If the negative levels come late in the day after you've already cast all your highest level spells, the situation could be that come morning you have all your highest level spell slots available and only lose some of your lower ones. That is counterintuitive when the loss of spellslots is from negative levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tony111 07-30-05, 04:11 PM	Suppose that my wisdom is 18 (druid) and I take two wisdom drain/damage, reducing my wisdom to 16. Q1: Do I immediately lose a fourth level spell slot? Q2: If Q1 = yes, then which slot is lost? Q3: If Q1 = yes, then what happens if I have some fourth level spells that I already cast and some that are uncast? Can I choose to lose a slot that I have already lost for the day [cutting my losses in the near term]? Please note that I am aware that ifs my wisdom has been reduced to 16, I will not get (I will lose) my bonus fourth level slot when I prepare spells the next morning. These questions pertain to what happens in the near term; the time between when I take the wisdom damage/drain until when I try to next prepare spells. Cite a source if you could. I could not find the relevant material. -Tony
Nom 07-30-05, 08:25 PM	Suppose that my wisdom is 18 (druid) and I take two wisdom drain/damage, reducing my wisdom to 16. Q1: Do I immediately lose a fourth level spell slot? Q2: If Q1 = yes, then which slot is lost? Q3: If Q1 = yes, then what happens if I have some fourth level spells that I already cast and some that are uncast? Can I choose to lose a slot that I have already lost for the day [cutting my losses in the near term]? Q1: Yes, you immediately lose your bonus 4th level slot. PH pg 10: "When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly". For a precedent on how this works, see FAQ pg 2 and turning checks per day. At each point, your current "attempts per day" is compared to how many attempts you've already expended. If the difference is in your favour, you can make further attempts. If not, you can't. Note that it works similarly to hit points. When your total hp changes, your damage stays the same, and thus your current hp must change to match. If I have 8 (rolled) + 2 (Con) hp and 4 damage (thus 6 current hp) and my Con drops from 14 to 8 then my maxiumum hp drop from 10 to 7 and my current hp drop from 6 to 3. Similarly, if I have 3 + 2 (Cha) attempts per day and have already made 2 (thus 3 remaining) and my Cha drops from 14 to 8 then my attempts per day drop from 5 to 2 and I have no attempts remaining (until my Cha is restored). So, Q2 and Q3: you lose a slot, and the slot that is lost must be an uncast slot if you have one available (since the number of spells that you can cast has been reduced). A similar precedent occurs with negative levels (DMG pg 293), where the lost spell is the highest level uncast spell. What is not well covered is what happens when the ability score is restored (especially in the case of ability damage/drain, not just penalties). I play that any lost slots are regained in the state that they were lost, assuming a preparation period has not occurred in the interim. Others play that they are permanently lost. I'm not aware of a good precedent.
Tony111 07-31-05, 05:22 PM	O.K. that makes some sense. Just to be clear, how would you handle this situation: total slots_________already cast____________uncast 4th level = 2__________1_____________________1 3rd level = 3__________1_____________________2 2nd level = 4__________0_____________________4 1st level = 5__________2_____________________3 O.K., now suppose the guy gets hits by a spectre and loses gains two negative energy levels. Are you saying he loses the uncast fourth level slot and one uncast third level slot [instead of both fourth level slots]? Or if he takes four ability damage (reducing wisdom from 19 to 15) he loses the uncast fourth level slot and one of the uncast third levels slots. Correct? Ouch! -Tony
Nom 08-01-05, 12:25 AM	O.K., now suppose the guy gets hits by a spectre and loses gains two negative energy levels. Are you saying he loses the uncast fourth level slot and one uncast third level slot [instead of both fourth level slots]?I'm actually undecided on how to rule this one, since the rules themselves are IMO ambiguous. The first spell lost is definitely the uncast 4th level one. Consider that negative levels are temporary, I think I'd take an uncast 3rd level slot as the 2nd. Or if he takes four ability damage (reducing wisdom from 19 to 15) he loses the uncast fourth level slot and one of the uncast third levels slots. Correct? Ouch!Correct. He's lost 1 4th level slot and 1 3rd level slot due to reduced wisdom, so he also loses the spells to match.
Father Dale 08-01-05, 10:50 AM	I think the negative levels/spell slot question was answered in one of the FAQs or in Rules of the Game or something. You lose spell slots from negative levels in a particular order. You first start losing your highest level uncast slots. Once there are no more of these left, you lose your highest level already cast slots. Once all the slots from your highest level are gone, you move to the uncast slots from your second highest level. Then to your second highest level already cast slots. Using the Example above with the Chart, if the character were hit with one negative level he would lose his 4th lvl uncast slot. If hit with two he would lose both the 4th lvl slots, the cast and the uncast one. If hit with three negative levels he would lose all the 4th lvl slots and one 3rd lvl uncast slot. And so forth. This also fits in well with the idea of negative levels. You are "losing" levels, and your casting ability is based on your "levels." It would make no sense to lose only uncast slots, as the next day you would have lost some slots lower than what you still have available. If the negative levels come late in the day after you've already cast all your highest level spells, the situation could be that come morning you have all your highest level spell slots available and only lose some of your lower ones. That is counterintuitive when the loss of spellslots is from negative levels.