Ability Enhancement Help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability Enhancement Help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Quadhund
07-21-05, 04:37 PM I was discussing with another DM the other day about ability score enhancement items. He said that if I had a periapt of wisdom +2, and then cast owl's wisdom (+4 to wis), that I would only gain a benefit of +4 to wisdom total because they came from the same type of source. My previous experience led me to believe that these bonuses would stack ( up to +6 wisdom). Who is right?

I was also wondering if there was a maximum ability score due to enhancement from magic (or other sources)? If so, what is this value? I found in the DMG that an item may have no more than a +6 enhancement bonus, but does not suggest this is the maximum.

I would also appreciate that if the answer given comes from a source book, if you could also give me a page/general area to look under. Thank you very much.
Occams_Razor
07-21-05, 04:50 PM See the sidebar on stcking bonuses on page 21 of the 3.5 DMG. It's covered, with an almost exactly the same example to the one you gave.
Ithamar
07-21-05, 04:52 PM Your DM is (always) right regarding the stacking of bonuses. They are both enhancement bonuses, and thus they actually overlap and do not stack. For an official answer to this, check out the Rules of the Game articles at:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a

As for maximum ability enhancement, pre-epic it is +6 enhancement bonus from an item. You can also get a +5 inherent bonus from something like a tome or wish spell. And then there is 5 extra points you can add to any one stat from the ability increases you get every 4 levels. If you start with an 18 in an ability, that means you can end up with 34 for that ability. The modifier for a 34 is +12. If you are a race that starts with a +2 to one of the stats, you can actually end up with a 36, which is a +13 modifier.

Hope that answers your questions!
DragonWatcher
07-21-05, 04:55 PM Bonuses of the same name never stack (with one or two notable exceptions, like an enhancement bonus to missile weapons and ammo). So, if the bonus to Wisdom from both items has the same name (such as an Enhancement Bonus) then the other DM is right. If, however, one is an Enhancement Bonus, and the other is something else (like an Inherent Bonus) then they would stack, and without limit.

Again, check out the stacking bonuses sidebar in the DMG.

As another example, let's say that you found a Manual of Bodily Health +2 that gives a +2 to Con. and you read it. Later you find a Manual of Bodily Health +1 and read it... it would not increase your Con to +3... it would have no effect. It is the same kind of bonus (an Inherent Bonus). If you later found the same book, but +3, it would only raise your Con +1 (to a total of +3).

I don't know if that's clear, but hopefully it helps.
CalculatedTHAC0
07-21-05, 05:01 PM The rules for stacking effects are on pages 171 and 172 of the PH. However, it's almost easier to read the General Guidelines and Glossary version of stacking on page 313 of the PH (3.5 ed.).

Modifiers given to a given check or roll...do not stack if they have the same descriptors. . . (p. 313)

Think of Mage Armor and Shield of Faith. Mage armor grants a "+4 armor bonus to AC." Shield of Faith grants a "+2 deflection bonus to AC". Because one is deflection and one is armor, their effects would stack (+6 to AC).

On the other hand, a Periapt of Wisdom grants an enhancement bonus to wisdom (number of bonus varies). Likewise, Owl's Wisdom also grants an enhancement bonus to Wisdom. Because they are both enhancement bonuses, the highest modifier would be used of the two bonuses.
Occams_Razor
07-21-05, 06:30 PM Bonuses of the same name never stack (with one or two notable exceptions, like an enhancement bonus to missile weapons and ammo).

Just to clarify, while I believe that weapon and ammo bonuses stacked in 3.0, 3.5 does not allow these bonuses to stack. Not trying to hijack the thread, just trying to keep the cross-edition mix-ups from overrunning the fortifications and killing us all! ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quadhund 07-21-05, 04:37 PM	I was discussing with another DM the other day about ability score enhancement items. He said that if I had a periapt of wisdom +2, and then cast owl's wisdom (+4 to wis), that I would only gain a benefit of +4 to wisdom total because they came from the same type of source. My previous experience led me to believe that these bonuses would stack ( up to +6 wisdom). Who is right? I was also wondering if there was a maximum ability score due to enhancement from magic (or other sources)? If so, what is this value? I found in the DMG that an item may have no more than a +6 enhancement bonus, but does not suggest this is the maximum. I would also appreciate that if the answer given comes from a source book, if you could also give me a page/general area to look under. Thank you very much.
Occams_Razor 07-21-05, 04:50 PM	See the sidebar on stcking bonuses on page 21 of the 3.5 DMG. It's covered, with an almost exactly the same example to the one you gave.
Ithamar 07-21-05, 04:52 PM	Your DM is (always) right regarding the stacking of bonuses. They are both enhancement bonuses, and thus they actually overlap and do not stack. For an official answer to this, check out the Rules of the Game articles at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a As for maximum ability enhancement, pre-epic it is +6 enhancement bonus from an item. You can also get a +5 inherent bonus from something like a tome or wish spell. And then there is 5 extra points you can add to any one stat from the ability increases you get every 4 levels. If you start with an 18 in an ability, that means you can end up with 34 for that ability. The modifier for a 34 is +12. If you are a race that starts with a +2 to one of the stats, you can actually end up with a 36, which is a +13 modifier. Hope that answers your questions!
DragonWatcher 07-21-05, 04:55 PM	Bonuses of the same name never stack (with one or two notable exceptions, like an enhancement bonus to missile weapons and ammo). So, if the bonus to Wisdom from both items has the same name (such as an Enhancement Bonus) then the other DM is right. If, however, one is an Enhancement Bonus, and the other is something else (like an Inherent Bonus) then they would stack, and without limit. Again, check out the stacking bonuses sidebar in the DMG. As another example, let's say that you found a Manual of Bodily Health +2 that gives a +2 to Con. and you read it. Later you find a Manual of Bodily Health +1 and read it... it would not increase your Con to +3... it would have no effect. It is the same kind of bonus (an Inherent Bonus). If you later found the same book, but +3, it would only raise your Con +1 (to a total of +3). I don't know if that's clear, but hopefully it helps.
CalculatedTHAC0 07-21-05, 05:01 PM	The rules for stacking effects are on pages 171 and 172 of the PH. However, it's almost easier to read the General Guidelines and Glossary version of stacking on page 313 of the PH (3.5 ed.). Modifiers given to a given check or roll...do not stack if they have the same descriptors. . . (p. 313) Think of Mage Armor and Shield of Faith. Mage armor grants a "+4 armor bonus to AC." Shield of Faith grants a "+2 deflection bonus to AC". Because one is deflection and one is armor, their effects would stack (+6 to AC). On the other hand, a Periapt of Wisdom grants an enhancement bonus to wisdom (number of bonus varies). Likewise, Owl's Wisdom also grants an enhancement bonus to Wisdom. Because they are both enhancement bonuses, the highest modifier would be used of the two bonuses.
Occams_Razor 07-21-05, 06:30 PM	Bonuses of the same name never stack (with one or two notable exceptions, like an enhancement bonus to missile weapons and ammo). Just to clarify, while I believe that weapon and ammo bonuses stacked in 3.0, 3.5 does not allow these bonuses to stack. Not trying to hijack the thread, just trying to keep the cross-edition mix-ups from overrunning the fortifications and killing us all! ;)