Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dorpond 10-25-05, 09:40 AM	Simple question: If I am wearing an item that increases an ability score, it is true to say that the ability score can never be drained to 0? For example, let's say I have a magical item that increased my CON by +2. Can I then say that even if my CON drops to 0, I will be saved by the +2 item and still remain at +2 without dying? I can't ever drop to 0, correct? Thanks!
Dhavaer 10-25-05, 09:49 AM	I have heard that you can't send an ability score below zero, so logically it should work, but it just doesn't feel quite right.
dorpond 10-25-05, 09:56 AM	Well there are so many item slots so maybe it does feel right? Logically speaking, the magic item recreates a spell of some sort and that spell is preventing your ability from getting to 0. Now, if the spell from that magic item was surpressed or eliminated some how, then you would lose that +2 and drop to 0. Sound right?
Arishem 10-25-05, 10:00 AM	Thats not correct. when using an item that increases a stat. Your stat increases by that amount. So when you have say a 14 con and you wear a +2 con item. its not 14+2 con, its 16 con. So if an effect brings you down by 16 con and you are at 0, you die
dorpond 10-25-05, 10:04 AM	Another question to add to the debate: If I had Bears Endurance and was getting drained like crazy, would the spells benefit get drained or does it stop when my BASE hits zero leaving the me the +4 to Con? Or Does the +4 get drained also eventually leaving me to 0 and dying? Could spells prevent a 0 ability score?
Centauri 10-25-05, 10:05 AM	Hm. I don't have a reference, but I'm pretty sure that whatever your ability scores are, whether they come from spells or items, that you can still lose those scores to ability damage. I can see the point of view that an item like gauntlets of ogre power can never be drained and should always provide its bonus, but since the Strength they provide becomes part of your body, it also makes sense that it can be taken away. I think, in such a case, you could still be reduced to 0. But if the item were taken away, you'd still be at zero. Then what it you put the item back on? Well, strange as it seems, I think you'd get the bonus back. I don't think that's really game breaking, though it might foil a DM's plans. And what about spells? Are the ability score bonuses from spells drained or damaged first? If my Constitution goes from 10 to 14 because of bull's endurance and a stirge drains me for 4 points, do I drop to 6 after the spell expires? In that case, I tend to think I would. Constitution's trickier though, because you can't survive it dropping to zero. What if we're talking about Strength, then?
tarkin 10-25-05, 10:39 AM	I believe it is supposed to work like this, lets you strenght cause we don't need to worry about death then. Start out with a Strength of 14. You wear a Gauntlets of Ogre Power to make it 16. You get hit by enough strength drain to drain you 17 pts. Your Strength is strength is 0, and you are paralyzed. Someone removes your gauntlets, you are still 0. Someone puts the gauntlets back on you, you got to 2, and can get up.
dorpond 10-25-05, 10:50 AM	I don't believe Wizards intended magical items to be used in this manner but on the same hand, I think they overlooked this situation when creating the rules. So in your example, if it WAS CON based, they would die even though they had the magical item on that increased CON. Correct?
dorpond 10-25-05, 10:52 AM	Tarkin, the same goes for spells too, correct? Those temporary bonuses can be drain too?
q'afuu 10-25-05, 11:00 AM	Those temporary bonuses can be drain too? What Arishem said above goes for any and all such effects that increase a stat. No matter the source of the effects, your stat is at all times equal to your base stat plus bonuses that are in effect minus penalties that are in effect. There is just that one number. Draining doesn't take into account exactly how you got that number: it simply drains from it, potentially down to zero.
dorpond 10-25-05, 11:06 AM	I always thought of magic items as being "always on". That being said, if the item is always giving you +2, then you will ALWAYS be getting +2. Actually, it makes more sense that those points are not "drainable". It is magic, isn't it? Magic has it's own set of rules. For example, let's say I have Barkskin or Mage Armor cast on me and for whatever reason, you take away my armor, my dex and make me totally helpless for that matter, I still have +X to AC. Why? Because it is a spell and spells have to be dealt with directly through dispelling or antimagic. Why wouldn't the same go for the ability bonuses gained from spells/items? Just another thought to hopefully expand on this.
dorpond 10-25-05, 11:38 AM	What Arishem said above goes for any and all such effects that increase a stat. No matter the source of the effects, your stat is at all times equal to your base stat plus bonuses that are in effect minus penalties that are in effect. There is just that one number. Draining doesn't take into account exactly how you got that number: it simply drains from it, potentially down to zero.That all sounds very convicing but where is the hard evidence that this is true? Is there anything Core that can show me where this is the case? I see magic as being something that can't be taken away unless with Dispel Magic or Antimagic. Since when can a physical or magical attack (drain attack by certain undead) cause a magic spell in place to go away? The only spells I know of are counter spells (if done during casting), dispels and antimagic.
CryoSilver 10-25-05, 11:50 AM	I see it like a barbarian's rage: first, the enhanced score can be drained to zero. Second, if the item is removed or effect ends, the score drops further, to na minimum of zero. If the score was 14+2, the modifier would necessarily be -3: +2 for the 14, -5 for the two.
dorpond 10-25-05, 11:57 AM	I see it like a barbarian's rageBut you shouldn't, Rage is an EX ability NOT a spell. I am talking about SPELLS or items that create a SPELL function. Spells should not be viewed the same as Rage. Rage is CON bonus increased by anger not magic.
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 12:05 PM	sounds like you already know the answer YOU want Dorpond... so why bother asking the question? for the record I am in total agreement with tarkin, Arishem, and q'afuu as to how it works (although I can empathize with you a little because in previous editions when gauntlets of ogre power gave you a static strength score it worked the way you want it to). think of it this way, ability score damage is treated just like hp damage in 3.x, so if you were wearing a magic item that gave you +5 HP would it be impossible to kill you with a sword as long as you were wearing it?
Centauri 10-25-05, 12:11 PM	for the record I am in total agreement with tarkin, Arishem, and q'afuu :allalone:
dorpond 10-25-05, 12:13 PM	sounds like you already know the answer YOU want Dorpond... so why bother asking the question?I am not telling you the answer, I am laying down the facts to allow us to come up with a proper ruling. So far, I just got interpretation, even from you. I see no facts so far except for the facts I have put down about spells. I am bringing this up to debat, not to force ruling. I simply want to know the FACTS, not interpretation. Personally, I can see both sides.
Wenin 10-25-05, 12:24 PM	The problem comes... with me not having my books at work... when I come to these boards to gleam information.... =) Well also, that Stats can't be drained into the negatives. I see both sides as well, and as one of the posters on these forums has stated and I agree with.... be conservative with any rulings unless otherwise stated. With that in mind, I'd rule that Magical points are taken off last. IE: 14 Con +2 Magic Con, you take 14 points of Con damage, you are at 2 Con. If someone takes off your magic items, you are at 0 con and die. I'd also rule that when at a point when taking off a magic item has no effect, or the effect is less than the bonus of the magic item... placing any other magic item back onto the character only returns the character to the previous point. IE: 14 Str +2 Magic Str, you take 15 points of Str damage, you are at 1 Str. Removing the magic item, takes you to 0, putting it back on takes you to 1. This is just my opinion, I'd have to search the books to see if anything supports it.
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 12:28 PM	the objects that you are asking about give an enhancement bonus to the ability score, an enhancement bonus simply increases the score to a new level (just like an enhancement bonus to armor simply increases its armor bonus)...
dorpond 10-25-05, 12:50 PM	the objects that you are asking about give an enhancement bonus to the ability score, an enhancement bonus simply increases the score to a new level (just like an enhancement bonus to armor simply increases its armor bonus)...That is correct and that is factual but also it states that many magic items are "always on". That lead me to believe that you will always have a +2 enhancement bonus no matter how low your ability score gets. If someone casts a Blindness/Deafness spell that causes blindness, the spell is permanant. That means that the spell is always there, running day and night. If someone was to cast detect magic, they would be able to see that aura on that person who is blind. The ONLY way I can remove such a spell is to dispel it in some manner. If you read the description of Remove Blindness/Deafness, it specifically states that it counters and dispells Blindness/Deafness. If tarkin is correct in that removing the item and putting it back on restores this lost ability enhancment, then that makes me believe that he is viewing it as "being activated when putting on" vs. "Always on". Always on is like Blindness/Deafness to me - always on until dispelled. See my view?
dorpond 10-25-05, 01:03 PM	An enhancement bonus simply increases the score to a new level (just like an enhancement bonus to armor simply increases its armor bonus)...That is correct now let me ask you how YOU would remove an Ogres enhancment bonus on his Leather Armor?
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 01:05 PM	If tarkin is correct in that removing the item and putting it back on restores this lost ability enhancment, then that makes me believe that he is viewing it as "being activated when putting on" vs. "Always on". ah I see... actually tarkin's view is based upon the fact that ability score points can not go to negative levels, they stop going down once 0 is reached... thus if you are Strength damaged down to 0 while wearing the gauntlets of ogre power, and then somebody removes the gloves you lose 2 more, but because it can not drop lower then 0 it stays 0... then if they put it back on you you would again get the +2 enhancement bonus 0+2=2 it is an exploitable loophole in the rules, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with always on vs. activted when put on.
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 01:12 PM	That is correct now let me ask you how YOU would remove an Ogres enhancment bonus on his Leather Armor? that is irrelivent.. if there were a spell or effect in the game that lowered the armor's armor bonus and destroyed it at 0 armor bonus, then the leather armor would be considered to have a total armor bonus of its normal armor bonus plus its enhancement bonus combined. This is the same it works with ability scores (where there are ways to lower ability scores).
dorpond 10-25-05, 01:12 PM	More facts: Blood Drain (Ex) Blood drain is a Vampire Spawns Ex ability. It is not magical nor does it counterspell or dispell anything. It is EX. Can you name any EX ability that could remove the Blindness/Deafness spell or remove the +2 enhancment bonus to your AC? There is none. Only magic removes magic.
dorpond 10-25-05, 01:18 PM	that is irrelivent.. if there were a spell or effect in the game that lowered the armor's armor bonus and destroyed it at 0 armor bonus, then...Now that is just silly because there is no such thing as destroying armor when it gets to 0 bonus. We destroy items by getting throught it's harness and causing HP damage to it - period. Your statement is completely irrelevent with no rule support what-so-ever.
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 01:19 PM	it was an example for the sake of argument because you are still misunderstanding what an enhancement bonus does... I was pertty sure that you would get that by the fact that I placed a disclaimer that no such ability existed in the rules... but of course I was wrong, but looking back over the thread I guess I should have known better, my bad.
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 01:24 PM	my question is how you can possibly think that a 2000 gp item that acts the way you think it does can be even remotly close to being balanced?
dorpond 10-25-05, 01:32 PM	my question is how you can possibly think that a 2000 gp item that acts the way you think it does can be even remotly close to being balanced?By stopping you at +4 CON? By preventing a CON of 0? Imbalanced? Listen, if you have a CON of 4, you are in serious trouble. Let me ask you, how many deaths have you experienced where your own CON dropped to 0? I have seen a couple of mine come close but it never happened. We only get one neck slot. Using it to increase your CON doesn't seem imbalanced to me. Personally, I would us that slot for something else than to keep me immuned from dying due to drains. I don't see any imbalance here.
Wenin 10-25-05, 01:41 PM	The reason you don't see it often, is likely because killing PCs via Con loss is easier than killing them via hp loss. (Such a death would often be seen as cheap, and brutish of the DM). If you're PCs are not killing NPCs via Con loss, than there must be some unwritten rule, "thou shall not do onto NPCs that I don't want done onto my PC". I don't see any imbalance here. When a 2000gp item can prevent the death of a character via the 0 Con = Death rule, is in itself unbalanced. It doesn't matter how often the rule is utilized. IE: Pump a character FULL of Con damaging poison, until they are passing it through their system... and they don't die.... because they were diligent enough to spend 2,000 gp. That doesn't smack of inbalance?
dorpond 10-25-05, 01:42 PM	Again, I am not being a jerk about this, I am simply trying to use the facts to come up with the right solution. Again, I don't have enough facts that say you lose your enhancement bonuses with drains. I don't agree with it. So to help us with this, let us ask ourselves the following: Are there any nonmagical means of removing ANY enhancement bonuses at all in D&D? If there is, then maybe there are nonmagical means of draining the enhancement bonuses to ability scores. These bonuses can be any, I don't care if they are Enhancement Bonuses to armor, weapons, ability scores, etc. If anyone knows of any, please let me know - this could help me break this game stopper. Thanks!
Wenin 10-25-05, 01:45 PM	Are there any nonmagical means of removing ANY enhancement bonuses at all in D&D? If there is, then maybe there are nonmagical means of draining the enhancement bonuses to ability scores. These bonuses can be any, I don't care if they are Enhancement Bonuses to armor, weapons, ability scores, etc. Tying someone up in rope removes ALL Dex bonuses, doesn't matter if they are achieved via magical or natural means. EDIT: PS: I don't think you're being a jerk about this, I think you've highlighted an interesting gap in the rules.
dorpond 10-25-05, 01:48 PM	IE: Pump a character FULL of Con damaging poison, until they are passing it through their system... and they don't die.... because they were diligent enough to spend 2,000 gp. That doesn't smack of inbalance? I don't think so, the poison did it's job and brought the victim to a few HP but the magical spell on his body keep him alive. He only has a few HP left and would easily die with one blow. It is magic and I don't see any difference between that or the +2 AC bonus to your shield - it protects you. Show me how to eliminate the +2 enhancement bonus to AC and I will listen.
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 01:51 PM	Show me how to eliminate the +2 enhancement bonus to AC and I will listen. use a touch attack.
dorpond 10-25-05, 01:53 PM	Tying someone up in rope removes ALL Dex bonuses, doesn't matter if they are achieved via magical or natural means. EDIT: PS: I don't think you're being a jerk about this, I think you've highlighted an interesting gap in the rules. Now THAT makes sense! Thanks! Now we are talking raw rules.. And thanks for the comment - I am such a rules lawyer that sometimes I can sound like a prick! :) So let me digest this new information a bit.
dorpond 10-25-05, 01:55 PM	use a touch attack.No.No.No, you are simply going around it. You are not eliminating it or surpressing it.
dorpond 10-25-05, 02:12 PM	OK, I guess I can rule out that since certain Enhancement Bonuses can be eliminated by non-magical means, there is no substance to the arguement I made about only magic eliminating magic.. I stand corrected on that. Does that make me feel 100% warm and cosy? Not really. I still feel that there are serious loopholes in the rules and the example would be what Tarkin explained. Do I think Wizards intended magic items to be used that way? No. Do I think Wizards even had this situation come up? No. What actually brought this up is that one of our players is going to have a character with a 4 Chr. He fears that he could easily be knocked out of the game through drains. He asked me if he could prevent his CHR from dropping to 0 if he had a magical item that increased it. I thought that was a good question and I posted it up here to get a general concensus. Looks like the general concensus is that you can still lose those ability enhancements through drains thus I see him at no advantage to having such magical items. I still see no proof but I don't think we will find any in the core rules. If anyone else has opinions on this matter, please post it. I will be monitoring this thread closely. Thanks again for the face-off!
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 02:19 PM	it would help him hold out a bit longer against ability damage.
Centauri 10-25-05, 02:33 PM	What actually brought this up is that one of our players is going to have a character with a 4 Chr. He fears that he could easily be knocked out of the game through drains. Fortunately for him, I don't think Charisma damage is a very common thing.
IceFractal 10-25-05, 02:57 PM	First off, where is everybody getting this 2,000 gp figure? An item of Con +1 costs 1000 gp, and an item of Con +2 costs 4000 gp. Nothing Con-related costs 2000 gp. Next off, I think really only one of two interpretations makes sense: 1) Scores can be drained to negative amounts. This is exactly like being drained to 0, except that it's harder to restore them. For balance reasons, stat draining abilities don't work on scores that are at 0 or below. 2) Scores can only go down to zero, and items cannot be drained, so someone wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power could only be drained down to 2 Strength. Interpretation 1 is the one that applies to hit points, and this is the reason that wearing an item that grants +5 HP won't keep you from dying - you'll just be at -15 HP instead of -20 HP, still dead. As for scores, I'm not sure. Definitely, it doesn't make sense to say that you can drain items, but that scores can't go below zero, as this leads to all kinds of weird situations like taking off and putting back on an item to boost the score. And, if the item somehow "remembers" that the score should still be zero. then: * How does it record that? * What if someone else wears it? * What if two people both wearing the item swap their sets? I'm pretty sure that stat draining effects shouldn't permanently drain items (for instance, turning Gloves of Dexterity +2 into Gloves of Dexterity +0), as that's something that normally takes MDJ to do.
dorpond 10-25-05, 03:13 PM	You have good points there IceFractal! Another thing to think about: Level 10 character wears an item that increases CON by 4. He effectively gets 20 more HP for the boost in CON. That HP can get taken away from attacks. If that is the case, then shouldn't the CON also be able to be taken away with attacks? I would think so.. Just another view of this whole mess. Perhaps though the CON is magical but the HP gained from it is a side effect? It doesn't state in the spell that the HP is an enhancement bonus, only the CON is. OIY! :eek:
ShinAkuma2 10-25-05, 03:15 PM	I think it would work like it works in most games... If a value would be reduced to less than zero, it is treated as zero. When this value is to be raised, it must be raised as normal from the negative value. If you have 16 Str and Gauntlets, and get damaged for 20 Str (I would hope this is over quite some time or from multiple sources), you are at -2 Str. Without those Gauntlets, you have a -4 Str. Either way, for the purpose of anything that depends on Str, you have a 0 Str. Removing the gauntlets would not hurt you, but it would make it harder to get back to moving around. Removing and replacing them would just put you back to -2. If given a Lesser Restoration, say, for 4 points, you'd be back at 2 Str.
dorpond 10-25-05, 03:17 PM	Thanks for the input!
Schmendrick 10-25-05, 03:49 PM	If you have 16 Str and Gauntlets, and get damaged for 20 Str (I would hope this is over quite some time or from multiple sources) Got Libris Mortis? Take a look at page 129, and think of a Colossal umbral creature. One look at that and I was thinking "Yep. never in my campaign. I like to keep playing, thanks."
primemover003 10-25-05, 03:53 PM	I'm almost positive that a recent Sage Advice covered this... You track drain or damage by the Base score, not the score adjusted for Enhancement bonuses. So if you have a 14 str and are wearing gauntlets of Ogre power to raise it to 16 and you take 14 points of damage or drain you're effectively at 0. I'll have to scan through a couple of my recent dragons to be sure though...
dorpond 10-25-05, 04:08 PM	That would be GREAT if you could find something ruled about this! Thanks primemover003!
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-25-05, 04:28 PM	Show me how to eliminate the +2 enhancement bonus to AC and I will listen. Rust Monster.
dorpond 10-25-05, 05:04 PM	I think I have been proven wrong by one of my players (Mafala). His arguement was this: "If you are correct, then I could simply wear a magic item that increases STR and run in a room with 10 Shadows, never worrying because I would never drop to 0 STR. Shadows ONLY do Str drain so they would effectively never incapacitate me and if it takes all day, I would eventually kill them all." Great arguement Mafala for that was the example that closes this discussion for me. He hit the nail on the head - Shadows only do STR damage. They would never be able to drop him to zero if we were playing by the rules I was swaying towards. The end result? yes, the character can drop to 0 with enhancement bonuses to ability scores. The magic item does not prevent this. For our games however, we are going to keep track of the BASE scores even though they may go into the negatives. That will prevent the "take the item off and put it back on" to remove the ailments. For example if my enhanced CON goes to 0 but my base CON is -4, if you take off the item and put it back on again, you will still be at 0 or -4. If it is a buff spell that wore off, you will need to Restore -4 and up, not 0 and up. Thanks again for all the points of view!
strumbleduck 10-25-05, 05:19 PM	From the FAQ: When a character loses ability points due to a draining attack, poison, or whatever, how do enhancements such as a headband of intellect or gauntlets of ogre power work. Are those points lost first? If a character takes the item off, does the item still work? Does the character lose more points if he takes the item off? Apply ability score losses to the victim’s total score, no matter where the score came from. An ability enhancing item is not harmed by an ability draining attack, and if the victim takes off the item, the victim’s ability score drops accordingly. No ability score, however, can be lessened to less than 0. A creature with an ability score lessened to 0 cannot benefit from magic that enhances that ability score until rest or healing increases the ability to at least 1. For example, a human lessened to Strength 0 cannot benefit from a bull’s strength spell or a belt of giant strength while the score is at 0. After a day of rest, the character recovers 1 point of Strength and can once again benefit from Strength enhancements.
dorpond 10-25-05, 05:30 PM	THANK YOU STRUMBLEDUCK!! I didn't find that in my FAQ earlier - must be an older one :( I guess that covers what happens if the item is put back on too! Nothing will happen until at least one is gained back. Hmmm.. Works for me! Thanks again!
strumbleduck 10-25-05, 05:38 PM	Happy to help. :) It's in the "Main D&D FAQ" with all the old questions, not the "v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ", but I don't see why it would be out of date. It would be nice if they would sort through the old FAQ and put anything that was still relevant in the 3.5 version.
Nom 10-25-05, 08:30 PM	Expounding that entry: - Ability damage is applied to the total score, including any enhancement bonuses. So a character with 14 base Str plus gauntlets +2 can take 15 points of Str damage and will have Str 1. - Ability damage applies to the character, not the item. The item will still grant anyone who wears it +2 Str. - Taking the item off (or otherwise inactivating it's effect) immediately adjusts the score. If this would drop the score below 0, it stops at 0. - (new ruling) Ability enhancements cannot be applied to a 0 score. Thus, it would follow from these rules that a char with 14 base Str + 2 (total 16) with 15 points damage (thus Str 1) could remove the gauntlets and drop to Str 0 (and only 14 points damage), but if he put them back on nothing would happen.
dorpond 10-26-05, 07:44 AM	OK, other questions that cropped up at last nights game about this. Scenario(didn't really happen): 1. player has bulls strength cast on himself adding +4 STR. 2. Player runs into a room full of creatures that drain STR. 3. His STR is normally 16 but is now 20 due to Bulls-STR. STRENGTH (Each 0 = 1 STR) 00000000000000000000 Loses 4 0000000000000000---- Loses 10 more 000000-------------- Loses 6 (none left) -------------------- Total Strength lost = 20 (16 base and 4 enhancement) Now for the questions: 1. If someone casts Lesser Restorations on him or he rests for 1 STR, how much STR does he have if the Bull Str spell was still active? What if the spell wore off long ago? 2. If the Bulls Strength spell wore off before any STR was gained, how many STR does he have to gain back? He lost 20 - does he have to gain 20 back (basically gaining back the 4 for BS + 16 base) or does he just have to gain back 16? (keep in mind that this could create a loop hole) 3. If he did gain 1 STR through rest or Lesser Restoration but his Bulls Strength wore off long ago, how much STR does he have? Another Scenario to hopefully allow you to anser your questions better: A mage with a Base STR of 8 wears magical items that give him 12 STR bringing his total to 20 STR. He gets drained for 20 STR and while he is laying there, the enemy steals all of his items that gave him the 12 STR. How much STR does the mage have to restore? Thanks!
simon_tage 10-26-05, 08:09 AM	Okay, as a DM I could look at this 2 ways. 1. The item (spell, etc) grants a bonus to the stat in a real way (making the stat a 16 not a 14+2) then the stat would take 16 points before it was drained to 0. 2. The item adds a long term temporary bonus (until removed/destroyed etc) and makes the stat a 14 (16 temporary). If that were the case I would say that the stat, having taken 14 point of drain would be a 0 and the character would suffer the consequences of such (death, undead status, whatever). I think the two are mutually exclusive and that you can't have it both ways.
Nom 10-26-05, 08:32 AM	Now for the questions: 1. If someone casts Lesser Restorations on him or he rests for 1 STR, how much STR does he have if the Bull Str spell was still active? What if the spell wore off long ago?Well, he'll become a shadow in 1d4 rounds so I don't think resting will work. If we allow lesser restoration to avoid the shadow effect, then things get interesting. By the ruling above, the bull's strength effect would cease to provide any benefit when the ability score dropped to 0. When the score was raised to at least 1, it would immediately function again, thus resulting in an effective score of 5 (or more). This is surprising, but at least consistent. It also has the benefit of working the same way regardless of whether the spell wears off before or after the Str is regained. 2. If the Bulls Strength spell wore off before any STR was gained, how many STR does he have to gain back? He lost 20 - does he have to gain 20 back (basically gaining back the 4 for BS + 16 base) or does he just have to gain back 16? (keep in mind that this could create a loop hole)If he hit 0, then 16. Otherwise whatever is required to restore his effective Str score. If non-zero, it may be advantageous to let the spell expire before healing, as long as he can afford to be incapacitated. 3. If he did gain 1 STR through rest or Lesser Restoration but his Bulls Strength wore off long ago, how much STR does he have?1. Another Scenario to hopefully allow you to anser your questions better: A mage with a Base STR of 8 wears magical items that give him 12 STR bringing his total to 20 STR. He gets drained for 20 STR and while he is laying there, the enemy steals all of his items that gave him the 12 STR.8. Even if he later puts the items back on, and even if they weren't stolen. The only time he'd have to restore more than 8 is if his effective Str never went 0.
dorpond 10-26-05, 09:22 AM	Well, he'll become a shadow in 1d4 rounds so I don't think resting will work. If we allow lesser restoration to avoid the shadow effect, then things get interesting. Yes, forget about that for now - I forgot about that :) I will correct that in my scenario. 8.The only time he'd have to restore more than 8 is if his effective Str never went 0.So what you are saying is that you are almost better off letting your STR drop to 0 because there is not as much to restore that way? I see nothing but loopholes in this system and the FAQ has not made anything any better.. :(
Argeon 10-26-05, 09:37 AM	I'm almost positive that a recent Sage Advice covered this... You track drain or damage by the Base score, not the score adjusted for Enhancement bonuses. So if you have a 14 str and are wearing gauntlets of Ogre power to raise it to 16 and you take 14 points of damage or drain you're effectively at 0. I'll have to scan through a couple of my recent dragons to be sure though... So basicaly drain damage drains from your actual unadjusted score? If you have a 14 str +3 from magical items (total of 17) and are drained for 14 your at 0 unadjusted and suffer the effects of being at 0. To me it makes more sense and would be easier to handle. You can't go negative and you can't drain magical items with poisons/disease or what have you so it is an easier way to handle IMO. I mean in my understanding of the rules you cant drop below 0 in any stat so you can only be drained to 0. What would keep someone from taking a magical item off and putting it back on once he hit 1 from resting or restored to get it up to 4 or what have you.
dorpond 10-26-05, 09:44 AM	What would keep someone from taking a magical item off and putting it back on once he hit 1 from resting or restored to get it up to 3 or what have you.That seems to be a problem with both methods and I am troubled by it.
Argeon 10-26-05, 10:40 AM	Using the unadjusted scrore I think clears the debate completely. A magical item or spell doesn't fuction if your unadjusted score is 0. With that in mind once you hit 1 from restoration or rest you would regain the magical item bonus. This stops the debate of taking an item on and off, the debate on negative ability scores and the thought of draining a magical item. I really hate the idea of negative ability scores in any way. If you had a +4 str item and get drained to "-4" and the item is removed your character is incapacitated for 4 days? Just alot of bad situations and other questions you can run into. Magical item "drains" with rays/poisons or what ever is unacceptable to me also. The power magical item not functioning because your unadjusted ability score is 0 makes more sense.
dorpond 10-26-05, 10:50 AM	Doesn't it strike you odd though that if you have 8 Base STR and 4 Enhanced STR and lose 12 STR that you will be back at 5 STR if you simply restore 1? That is the part I have issues with. Seems like if you lose 12, you should have to gain 12 back. Only seems fair, doesn't it? The only problem with that is that you would have to keep track of negatives then and that bucks up against the rules.. I think the way you state the rules is the way it should be done though.
Argeon 10-26-05, 10:55 AM	Once you lose 8 str (your base) your base str is at 0 so you lose the +4 bonus from a magical items (spells you could possibly treat different kinda like temorary HP that get lost 1st because htey will be gone by the time you get them back). So basicaly you only get drained and have to regain 8 str. Granted you would be at a 5 str soon as you reach one but that avoids the drain of magical items, going to negative points and the removing of an item and requiping it.
dorpond 10-26-05, 11:15 AM	Hmmm, so in a way, you are denying the character 100% of the functions of that Bulls Strength. Afterall, the Bulls Strength is increasing your STR so why shouldn't you have a better change to defend against STR draining creatures? In your example, the character doesn't gain any benefit from such a spell and a mage with 8 STR will gain no advantage even though he has 20 STR after buffs. Seems "underpowering" if you ask me. Shouldn't the character gain ALL the benefits of the spell/item? I would say so.
simon_tage 10-26-05, 11:46 AM	Hmmm, so in a way, you are denying the character 100% of the functions of that Bulls Strength. Afterall, the Bulls Strength is increasing your STR so why shouldn't you have a better change to defend against STR draining creatures? In your example, the character doesn't gain any benefit from such a spell and a mage with 8 STR will gain no advantage even though he has 20 STR after buffs. Seems "underpowering" if you ask me. Shouldn't the character gain ALL the benefits of the spell/item? I would say so. They do gain the full benefit. The wizard in the example has an 8 str that has been modified to a 20, he does not in fact have a 20 str. If he entered an anti magic field he would be down to an 8. Now, if he had used the attribute boni from going up levels to increase his str to a 13 say, an anti magic field would not lower that as it is an Inherant Bonus that effectively changes the stat in a permanent manner. The fact of the matter is that you have an attribute score, which can be modified by multiple effects, but is still your score. If this is an "underpowering" of the item/spell's abilities than it is a relatively minor one. Unfortunately it seems to apply to your situation but it doesn' change the fact that casting bull's strength doesn't make you str 4 higher, it adds an enhancement bonus of 4 to your str for a time. Somantics maybe, but still the truth.
dorpond 10-26-05, 12:06 PM	I'm sorry, I have a hard time with it. If my 8 STR is buffed to 20, I can carry large rocks, push large statues, carry another player without effort and climb much better. If someone drained my STR, they would drain from the whole, not the part. Afterall, I am in fact stronger, arn't I? look at my muscles. :P
Argeon 10-26-05, 12:08 PM	You do still gain all the benifits from an item or spell. You get bonus skills, to hit, to damage, to ac, encumburance and so on from the ENHANCEMENT. But the ENHANCEMENT doenst change your Base ablity score it just Magicaly imrpoves it temporarily (a magial it is "premenent" till removed so till only temporary). To me its an ABILITY DRAIN not a magical effects drain (which stat bonus from spells and items really are). If you drain a character with an adjusted 20 str (+4 from gauntlets) your really draining 16 ability score and 4 magical bonus if you drain all of it. If you drain just the ability of 16 to put ya to 0 and lose the magical bonus cause you have a 0 ability (kinda like mat 0x anything is still 0) your not draining a magical effect just the ABILITY.
Argeon 10-26-05, 12:17 PM	You do still gain all the benifits from an item or spell. You get bonus skills, to hit, to damage, to ac, encumburance and so on from the ENHANCEMENT. But the ENHANCEMENT doenst change your Base ablity score it just Magicaly imrpoves it temporarily (a magial it is "premenent" till removed so till only temporary). To me its an ABILITY DRAIN not a magical effects drain (which stat bonus from spells and items really are). If you drain a character with an adjusted 20 str (+4 from gauntlets) your really draining 16 ability score and 4 magical bonus if you drain all of it. If you drain just the ability of 16 to put ya to 0 and lose the magical bonus cause you have a 0 ability (kinda like mat 0x anything is still 0) your not draining a magical effect just the ABILITY. Lets take in account ABILITY DRAIN not ABILITY DAMAGE. IF you were to drain a person where would you apply the damage to his magical item or person first? I would apply it to the person because you cannot drain a magial item with ABILITY DRAIN. Only difference between the 2 types is one is a Permanent loss the other is temporary. Other wise both "damages" are the same.
likuidice 10-26-05, 12:20 PM	although slightly different, there is an example for charisma boosts affecting turning attempts in the faq (i believe, may have been a book). A temp cha bonus grants extra turning attempts, for example a 10 cha cleric casts eagles splendour, raising his turn attempts to 5, from his normal 3, he uses them all, and the spell wears off. if he again cast it, he would gain no extra turning attempts, even though it is a new spell, unless his cha is raised by an additional 2 (or more) points. Also, on the subject of magical stat boosts, how would you rule an inherent stat bonus, which is only granted by magic, and is instantaneous, but is still counted seperately for stacking effects? A stat, I believe, becomes whatever it is modified to be e.g, a base stat of 16, with gauntlets of strength +2 becomes 18, not 16 +2. these additional points can be drained just as other points can, and in the cleric example above, the effect stays, even if the bonus is removed, e.g, the fighter takes 18 points of str drain, his score drops to 0, his gauntlets are removed, his score remains at 0, the gauntlets are returned, his score remains 0, because he still has 18 points of str damage applied, even though his str score cannot be reduced below 0, the damage doesnt go away if the gauntlets are removed, in the same way that damage taken during a barbs rage doesnt go away when his rage runs out and his con returns to normal.
gbnogkfs 10-26-05, 12:49 PM	sorry; wrong post :(
Argeon 10-26-05, 02:54 PM	Sorry about the multiple post damn internet! Reading the Faq it still doesnt make sense to me. The way it reads is you drain from the total, once you hit 0 nothing can help you (that makes sense) But it the says if ya romove say gauntlets when your at 0 your still at 0 so basicaly you can remove the gauntlets restore your 1 point and put them back on and your at 1+ Item bonus. There is no negative, no keeping track of how far below 0 you go based on items. So I guess you drain all of the stat (Draining an items abilites some how because in the rules/faq you can never go below 0?) then once you restore 1 point you get all the items effects back. Dorpond I can not agree with counting "negative points" because it specificaly says you can never go below 0. I don't like the reasoning of getting all your bonuses back soon as ya hit 1 again, but thats the only option you have according to the rules. I don't think the faq is complete or totaly thought out.
dorpond 10-26-05, 03:14 PM	Dorpond I can not agree with counting "negative points" because it specificaly says you can never go below 0. I don't like the reasoning of getting all your bonuses back soon as ya hit 1 again, but thats the only option you have according to the rules. I don't think the faq is complete or totaly thought out.I totally agree 100%. I can find problems with both sides of the coin. 1. I think a buff spell should grant you 100% of that buff. That being said, a Mage with 8 STR should be able to buff up with magic to give him a better chance at surviving drains. With the ruling that you only drain the BASE ability score, a buff isn't really all that good anymore. 2. With taking the drains off the total score, this leads to issues with what happens when Items are taken on and off again. The example here is when the Mage with 8 STR wears Bracers of Ogre STR that brings him to 12 and he is drained for 12 leaving him at 0. the fact that we can increase him by 1 take the bracers of and put them on again for +4 more sounds silly. He only increased in 1 point not 5. Crazy, just crazy! :P
dorpond 10-26-05, 03:21 PM	My friend Mafala asked me another question which could lighten things a bit or complicate them perhaps: "What happens if a standard player got drained to 0 STR. He has no spells on him or items to increase STR. He is at 0 but the mage in the party casts Bull Strength on him. He asked me how I would rule that. I told him "Before I had this discussion on-line, I would have given him 4 STR and allowed him to get the hell out of the room!" but then I said that I am uncertain now do to this discussion. What would you do in that case? You ARE increasing the poor characters STR, are you not?
Kendrick 10-26-05, 05:22 PM	In your last listed situation, the character shouldn't gain anything from the spell. According to the FAQ, since he is at 0 Str, the spell would have no effect. Kinda sucks, but there it is. By the same rule, if I understand it correctly, a character with a +4 Str item who was drained to 0 Str would be go to 5 Str upon regaining only 1 point. The flip side of this is that the +4 Str item wouldn't count towards the strength damage required to get him to 0. e. g. a character has 10 str, and is wearing a Belt of Giant Strength +4. If he takes just 10 points of Str damage, his strength drops to 0, because even though he's wearing the Belt, the belt has no effect once his "base" strength hits 0. If he then gets a Lesser Restoration for 4 points, his strength goes up to 8. If you want to change it, it would be equitable to change both effects at once - allow negative ability scores, and allow enhancement bonuses to function even if the character would be at or below a 0 "base" ability score. If you house rule it this way, the 0 Str character who recieved the Bull's Strength spell would go up to Str 4, provided he was at 0 Str to start with (rather than at -2 or something, which would be possible if you allowed ability scores to drop into the negative).
dorpond 10-26-05, 07:49 PM	Another friend of mine offered this as a House Rule: "Treat the item as a character. If the item is "drained" of it's ability enhancement, it has to heal that back to full over time. This means that if someone else put the item on it would initially be useless. The next day it would function at +1, the +2 the next, etc. It would be interesting to let the PCs find an item that initially gave no bonus but got better over time. Keep them confused for a bit anyway." This is an interesting theory and this could actually work causing no loopholes that I can see. Without actually play testing it, I won't know for certain. I know items can't be treated as people but in this rare case, think it could work? It would allow Buffs to be useful AND it would prevent cheesy users from finding ways to gain back what they have lost. Thoughts?
dorpond 10-26-05, 09:38 PM	I sent an e-mail to Wizards Customer Service (although not the greatest place for answers). This is what I sent: **************************************** **************** Scenario 1: I am a character with a 16 STR I am wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Strength adding a +2 to STR (enhancement bonus) My total STR is 18 An enemy or monster then drains my STR to 0. Question #1: Does my STR drain to zero when I lose my base ability score of 16 or my total ability score of 18? Question #2: If my STR drops to zero when 18 is drained, what happens when someone takes off the Gauntlets and puts them back on while at zero? Question #3: If my STR drops to zero when 18 is drained and then someone came up to me and stole my Gauntlets, how must STR would I have to regain to get my STR back to full? Question #4: If my STR drops to zero when 16 is drained then does that mean that spells like Bulls Strength or items like Gauntlets of Ogre Strength are useless against Ability Score Drains? Scenario 2: A level 1 friend is in a room helpless because his STR was drained to 0. He has no magical items on nor is there any spells on him. Question #5: If the Mage in the party casts Bulls Strength on the fallen friend would that increase his STR to 4 allowing him to get up and leave? Please be as descriptive as possible when explaining all this to me. **************************************** *************** I hope they reply with something useful :(
Nom 10-26-05, 11:03 PM	This is an interesting theory and this could actually work causing no loopholes that I can see. Without actually play testing it, I won't know for certain.Two loopholes: (1) does the item or the character lose Str first? (2) doesn't work for bull's strength, or multiple items.
dorpond 10-27-05, 10:08 AM	My concern with draining only the Base Ability Score: This could effectively throw the balancing out of whack. Let us not look at level 3 characters but let us think level 15 and up. Each of these characters are decked with many magical items and have tons of spells to choose from. If we only drain from the Base Ability Score and not the Total, now those high level traps that drain, creatures that drain and rogues with poison become a lot more powerful because we cannot buff against them. The Bears Endurance, Bulls Strength and other buff spells would be completely bypassed against these type of attacks. The mage couldn't give you the needed Strength to get up off the floor because it just won't work. See how that could make those encounters so much more powerful now? I have a hard time believing that a character with a 6 in a stat cannot buff that stat against these attacks by increasing it magically - just doesn't make sense to me.
dorpond 10-27-05, 11:15 AM	Quotes from 3.5 FAQ: Q: Does an enhancement bonus to an ability score raise the actual score (for example, a 16 Dexterity raised to a 20 Dexterity in the case of a cat’s grace spell) or does it raise that ability’s bonus (for example, a +3 modifier [from a 16 Dexterity] +4 cat’s grace = +7 Dexterity modifier)? A: An enhancement bonus to an ability score raises the score (and therefore the corresponding bonus by the proper amount). If your Dexterity is 16 and you get a +4 enhancement to Dexterity from cat’s grace, your new score is 20 (+5 bonus). **************************************** ******** Q: When a cleric has a temporary bonus to his Charisma score, does it affect his turning check or turning damage? Does it change the number of times he can turn or rebuke per day? A: Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one. For example, a cleric with a temporary +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma (such as from eagle’s splendor) would add 2 to his turning check and to his turning damage while the spell was in effect, since his Charisma modifier is 2 points higher than it was before. **************************************** ******** Quotes from the 3.0 FAQ: From 3.0 FAQ: Q: When a character loses ability points due to a draining attack, poison, or whatever, how do enhancements such as a headband of intellect or gauntlets of ogre power work. Are those points lost first? If a character takes the item off, does the item still work? Does the character lose more points if he takes the item off? A: Apply ability score losses to the victim's total score, no matter where the score came from. An ability enhancing itemis not harmed by an ability draining attack, and if the victim takes off the item, the victim's ability score drops accordingly. No ability score, however, can be lessened to less than 0. A creature with an ability score lessened to 0 cannot benefit from magic that enhances that ability score until rest orhealing increases the ability to at least 1. For example, a human lessened to Strength 0 cannot benefit from a bull's strength spell or a belt of giant strength while the score is at 0. After a day of rest, the character recovers 1 point of Strength and can once again benefit from Strength enhancements. My question to everyone on these boards: Are we safe to say that Wizards wants us to drain from the TOTAL score and not the BASE? Is everyone in agreement with this logical conclusion? If everyone agrees with that, then buff spells like Bulls Strength WILL benefit someone who is getting attacked by Shadows. Please voice you opinions on this question - I have a raging battle with my party over this topic. :P
simon_tage 10-27-05, 11:28 AM	I seriously don't understand your confusion. You have a wizard with an 8 str. You have the belt of Uber strengthiness that adds +12 to your str. Your muscles do not get any bigger, they simply have been magically amplified. Yoru appearance does not change, you do not need to buy a new wardrobe. Women will not comment on how "cut" you are. You still have an 8 str worth of muscles and that is what is being drained. The benefit of the belt would be that even at 1 str you would have the +1 to hit and damage of a 13 str. Unfortunately, once that last oint is gone you suffer the effects of having a 0 stat. Does this make things like bull strength useless? No, just not as versitile as you thought. Worried about poison/ traps and special attacks? Get better saves. Worried about the rare effect that doesn't allow a save? So is everyone else.
dorpond 10-27-05, 11:38 AM	So you disagree with my conclusion to those quotes from Wizards. That's all I need at this point. Thanks!
Argeon 10-27-05, 12:00 PM	Remember +ability items are not the only thing that protect you from various losses. Protection from evil and various other spells can protect you from getting drained. Only problem with draining from the total stat is what happens once you reach 0 total stat then recoup to 1 via rest or spell?? You cant go negative and you cant drain the magical effects so soon as you reach 1 again you would regain magical effects. Long as you can agree to that then rules work.
dorpond 10-27-05, 12:06 PM	Argeon, can I ask you if you agree or disagree with my conclusion above? I had a question on my post with all of the FAQ's (at the bottom). I would like to know where YOU stand with all of this. Thanks Friend!
Nom 10-27-05, 04:39 PM	My question to everyone on these boards: Are we safe to say that Wizards wants us to drain from the TOTAL score and not the BASE?Yes. I can find several rulings to that effect, and almost no rulings otherwise. In fact, the only place that base score is used is Int for skills at level up. If everyone agrees with that, then buff spells like Bulls Strength WILL benefit someone who is getting attacked by Shadows.Yes. The problem is that ability scores have a minimum value of zero, which causes odd limit effects if a score with an enhancement applied reaches zero and then the enhancement is reapplied.
Argeon 10-28-05, 09:47 AM	I dont have a problem with draining from the total score then once you hit 1 you gain back all the bonuses, if you drain the total thats the only way to do it. I don't agree with draining the magic item and having it gain one point a day or what have you. These abilities don't drain magical items period.
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-28-05, 10:14 AM	I agree that drains should detract from the total, not the base. IMHO...If you remove your gauntlets and then put them back on, you'll only be as well off as you were right before you took them off. Although it doesn't feel perfect, the "no magic bonuses until you reach 1" ruling works fine for me.
meatpuppet 10-28-05, 11:45 AM	To keep things balanced, I can see only two approach to this conundrum First If a value would be reduced to less than zero, it is treated as zero. When this value is to be raised, it must be raised as normal from the negative value. If you have 16 Str and Gauntlets, and get damaged for 20 Str (I would hope this is over quite some time or from multiple sources), you are at -2 Str. Without those Gauntlets, you have a -4 Str. Either way, for the purpose of anything that depends on Str, you have a 0 Str. Removing the gauntlets would not hurt you, but it would make it harder to get back to moving around. Removing and replacing them would just put you back to -2. Second You track drain or damage by the Base score, not the score adjusted for Enhancement bonuses. So if you have a 14 str and are wearing gauntlets of Ogre power to raise it to 16 and you take 14 points of damage or drain you're effectively at 0. I know the second one gives less "panache" to those buff spells, but it does make more sense IMHO Just my two cents :D
dorpond 10-31-05, 06:20 PM	Well, I never got a response from Wizards Support. Must be because it is a grey area that has no black and white answer. I guess I will sit down with the group tomorrow and simply ask the following question: "Do we want a system where buffs make a difference or not?" One ruling allows for buffs, the other one doesn't. I will let the majority rule. Thank you all for being involved with this difficult topic.
Schmendrick 11-01-05, 02:21 PM	"Do we want a system where buffs make a difference or not?" One ruling allows for buffs, the other one doesn't. I will let the majority rule. That's a bit of an exaggeration. You're acting as though ability damage/drain was the primary reason for buffs. It's not. The primary reason for buffs is for EVERY OTHER MECHANIC that ability scores control: carrying capacity, attack bonuses, armor class, saves, hit points, skill checks and everything else that makes up a majority of the game. Paralysis/unconsciousness/death from having ability score 0 is a totally separate (and, I daresay, relatively rare) consideration. Risking those things is one of the [nearly impossible to bypass] prices you pay for having a low "dump" stat.
dorpond 11-01-05, 04:37 PM	That's a bit of an exaggeration. You're acting as though ability damage/drain was the primary reason for buffs. It's not. No not really, that rogue poison just got more dangerous; that trap got more deadly, that undead is more powerful and the draining spells are going to pack a bigger punch. you see, there are a lot of things in the game that Abilty Drain or Ability damage. You may not use them much but they are there especially at higher levels. I was not over exaggerating; those types of attacks could be deadlier or nerfed depending on the vote. All depends on what Wizards intended when they did their game testing for balancing and mechanics.
ScipioX 11-01-05, 06:09 PM	Quotes from 3.5 FAQ: Q: Does an enhancement bonus to an ability score raise the actual score (for example, a 16 Dexterity raised to a 20 Dexterity in the case of a cat’s grace spell) or does it raise that ability’s bonus (for example, a +3 modifier [from a 16 Dexterity] +4 cat’s grace = +7 Dexterity modifier)? A: An enhancement bonus to an ability score raises the score (and therefore the corresponding bonus by the proper amount). If your Dexterity is 16 and you get a +4 enhancement to Dexterity from cat’s grace, your new score is 20 (+5 bonus). **************************************** ******** Q: When a cleric has a temporary bonus to his Charisma score, does it affect his turning check or turning damage? Does it change the number of times he can turn or rebuke per day? A: Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one. For example, a cleric with a temporary +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma (such as from eagle’s splendor) would add 2 to his turning check and to his turning damage while the spell was in effect, since his Charisma modifier is 2 points higher than it was before. **************************************** ******** Quotes from the 3.0 FAQ: From 3.0 FAQ: Q: When a character loses ability points due to a draining attack, poison, or whatever, how do enhancements such as a headband of intellect or gauntlets of ogre power work. Are those points lost first? If a character takes the item off, does the item still work? Does the character lose more points if he takes the item off? A: Apply ability score losses to the victim's total score, no matter where the score came from. An ability enhancing itemis not harmed by an ability draining attack, and if the victim takes off the item, the victim's ability score drops accordingly. No ability score, however, can be lessened to less than 0. A creature with an ability score lessened to 0 cannot benefit from magic that enhances that ability score until rest orhealing increases the ability to at least 1. For example, a human lessened to Strength 0 cannot benefit from a bull's strength spell or a belt of giant strength while the score is at 0. After a day of rest, the character recovers 1 point of Strength and can once again benefit from Strength enhancements. My question to everyone on these boards: Are we safe to say that Wizards wants us to drain from the TOTAL score and not the BASE? Is everyone in agreement with this logical conclusion? If everyone agrees with that, then buff spells like Bulls Strength WILL benefit someone who is getting attacked by Shadows. Please voice you opinions on this question - I have a raging battle with my party over this topic. :P I can't believe this is still being discussed. That's as official an answer as you're going to get. If you don't agree, go ahead and make up your own house rules. But there's not that much point in discussing it further, since house rules are simply opinions, and we all know what opinions are like.