About commanding undead... [Archive] - Wizards Community

About commanding undead... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
boozerker
01-05-06, 11:35 AM Just a quick question about commanding undead, the wording about it in the PHB is a little unclear.

The SRD says:

The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead.

Does that mean orders to one undead at a time, so that if you have 5 commanded undead it would take 5 standard actions to tell them all what to do? I'm almost positive that's not the case, but the wording is give mental orders to a commanded undead (a commanded undead = 1 commanded undead).

And also another question. Once you have given your mental instructions (as a standard action), you can relax and go back to what you were doing, right?

I suppose that you don't have to keep giving mental orders (unless you change your orders). The order could be as simple as "kill enemies" so that once an opponent is downed, the undead moves on to the next opponent. Is this correct?

And last, the standard action to command undead is separate from the standard action of giving orders to commanded undead, right? So that if you command undead but are interrupted before having a chance to give mental oreders, they would just stand there doing nothing?

Thanks.
Shaggy_Shaggs
01-05-06, 12:11 PM Unfortunately I don't have an answer for this, but I also have a question about manipulating undead, so I hope you don't mind me slipping it into your thread.

Undead controlled by virtue of having created them yourself via Animate Dead respond to verbal rather than mental orders. ("This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands." - Player's Handbook) Can a player temporarily turn over control of his created undead by ordering them to Do what X says?
Inigo Carmine
01-05-06, 12:23 PM Undead controlled by virtue of having created them yourself via Animate Dead respond to verbal rather than mental orders. ("This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands." - Player's Handbook) Can a player temporarily turn over control of his created undead by ordering them to Do what X says?

This is gettingly pretty firmly into individual DM discretion area. I don't think you're going to find a written rule one way or another.

I would personally allow it, but it would not be foolproof. The undead would probably be susceptible to being tricked into following commands by illusions/glamers (even of poor quality) of person X.

((I would not let the undead be tricked into following commands by illusions/glamers of the actual caster though, because I believe there is an innate connection between the caster of a spell and the spell. This is why only the caster of a spell can dismiss it, and doesn't need to roll spellcraft checks when dispelling it with dispel magic)).
Shaggy_Shaggs
01-05-06, 12:31 PM Nothing written, eh? Cool... less likely to have a DM favorable to the idea suddenly find something that contradicts it.

Now I just have to hit level 6, grab Undead Cohort, and have my special ECL 4 ghoul take over my pair of siege engine zombies while I'm free to cast spells. :plotting: :evillaugh
Inigo Carmine
01-05-06, 12:53 PM Because of the lack of written rule, I recomend laying the groundwork with your DM ahead of time. Without the written rule behind you, you have less of a stance when you envision it working one way and he invisions it the other way.
Shaggy_Shaggs
01-05-06, 12:58 PM Oh, I already did talk with the DM, he's cool with handing control of the undead off, and with an ECL 4 ghoul for Undead Leadership despite a typical ghoul cohort being ECL 5. I just know he's begun to peruse these boards and acquire more books, and got concerned that he may stumble across something that says it's no good, and change his mind.
Dyrcona
01-05-06, 01:37 PM Just a quick question about commanding undead, the wording about it in the PHB is a little unclear.

The SRD says:

The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead.

Sounds like the SRD is treating this as something similar to concentrating to maintain a spell. I'd probably think it is more like redirecting a spell, which is a move action rather than a standard action.

Does that mean orders to one undead at a time, so that if you have 5 commanded undead it would take 5 standard actions to tell them all what to do? I'm almost positive that's not the case, but the wording is give mental orders to a commanded undead (a commanded undead = 1 commanded undead).

In the Hypertext SRD, the very next sentence reads: At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. It's not clear that any connection is drawn between the total number of undead a cleric may command and how many can be commanded as a Standard Action.

It seems a rather heavy penalty to pay, the loss of your stand action, to give orders to a single undead. As DM, I'd allow you to control all of your commanded undead as a single Standard Action. A compromise between the two extremes might be to allow the cleric to issue mental commands to a number of commanded undead equal to the character's CHA bonus in a single standard action, since turning and rebuking are keyed off of CHA to begin with.

It's also a question of whether or not your DM sees it as "controlling" the undead or as giving them orders. I'm not sure that commanded undead would follow verbal orders from a cleric who has commanded them via the turn/rebuke undead ability. It seems that they'd only follow verbal orders from their creator, so you'd have to be controlling them.

Hmm. This opens up an interesting possibility for your questions below.

And also another question. Once you have given your mental instructions (as a standard action), you can relax and go back to what you were doing, right?

Right, but using a standard action pretty much means you aren't doing much else in that round that is interesting unless you're running away.

I suppose that you don't have to keep giving mental orders (unless you change your orders). The order could be as simple as "kill enemies" so that once an opponent is downed, the undead moves on to the next opponent. Is this correct?

I started out writing my response by saying that you probably wouldn't. The more that I thought of it, the more that I realized that it all depends on how your DM sees it.

If the DM sees the commanding of undead as a battle of wills between your cleric and the creator of the undead (who presumably gave them whatever orders they were following when they attacked), then the DM could very well require your cleric to concentrate on controlling the undead every round, or they do nothing.

However, the last sentence in the four-sentence paragraph that describes commanded undead reads as follows: He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones. This sentence implies that you don't have to constantly give them orders because commanding new undead would require that you use a standard action to make another rebuke attempt.

And last, the standard action to command undead is separate from the standard action of giving orders to commanded undead, right? So that if you command undead but are interrupted before having a chance to give mental oreders, they would just stand there doing nothing?

Thanks.

That's debatable. Your DM could be generous and let you issue orders immediately. Your DM could also follow the rules strictly and require you to use another standard action to actually issue orders. The latter means that the undead would be standing around until your next standard action comes up in the next round. I'm not sure that I'd be that hard-nosed about it, myself.

Edited to add:

An interesting corollarly comes up here as well. How long does the commanding last? Is it only 10 rounds, which is the duration of turning and rebuking, or is it permanent? After all, the commanding is an evil substitute for the good cleric's ability to destroy the undead, a destruction that is permanent. The SRD says

Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.

This means that commanding is equivalent to destroying, so what do other DMs and players think? Does this mean that the evil cleric has permanently highjacked control of the undead from their creator, or is it only temporary like turning or rebuking?
Inigo Carmine
01-05-06, 01:53 PM Boozerker. sorry to seem like I've been ignoring your initial posts, I just honestly don't know the answers to them :)
That's debatable. Your DM could be generous and let you issue orders immediately. Your DM could also follow the rules strictly and require you to use another standard action to actually issue orders. The latter means that the undead would be standing around until your next standard action comes up in the next round. I'm not sure that I'd be that hard-nosed about it, myself.

I'd probably go a little easy myself as well. I'd treat them similar to summoned creatures in that they attack the nearest targets that are enemies to you as a default command (but unlike summons you don't get to choose where they start out at).

I would not allow sophisticated commands to be tacked on to the initial "taking command of" the undead such as having them all attack a specific target, or to attack the ones nearest you, etc. That would require its own command.
boozerker
01-06-06, 09:52 AM Don't worry about it. It's a bit amusing anyway, a different conversation going on while the question just sat there. I waited, curious to see how long it would go :)

Thanks Dyrcona for your response, but I'm still confused. Does a cleric have to keep taking a standard action each round to boss the undead around, or is it a once and done deal? And if so, does the cleric then have to take another standard action to change the command?

An interesting corollarly comes up here as well. How long does the commanding last? Is it only 10 rounds, which is the duration of turning and rebuking, or is it permanent?

You're right, the description doesn't list a time limit. Hmmm. Interesting. Wonder if that does mean infinite control?
Dyrcona
01-06-06, 10:25 AM I've been thinking about this and actually working on a write up for my house rules. (I like to keep 'em typed up in a file so I can print it and hand it to my players.)

Looking at the PHB doesn't help here, either, because it says the exact same thing as the SRD. Also, the rules FAQ skips over this question.

So, what I've decided:

If you're an evil cleric and you "command" some undead, they are now yours until they're destroyed, you relinquish control of them, or some other evil cleric commands them. I may also allow the creator some kind of check to regain control of them from you, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on the mechanics. (Maybe a Will check against a DC equal to the turning roll that commanded them?)

I'm going to say that you can send mental commands to them as a standard action. You can give them all the same orders or give each one a different order. These commands are not spoken and not heard by anyone else. You may communicate with 1 or all of your commanded undead in a single action. This takes a standard action because it requires a great deal of will power to connect "mentally" with a creature that has no INT. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Also, you may give a single verbal command to one or all of your commanded undead as a free action. Giving a different command to each of your undead or telling 2 of them to do one thing and the rest to do something else is a move equivalent action.

Undead will continue to follow their last order until they are commanded to do something else.

Also, when you first command them, they will do nothing until you direct them to do something, or they see you taking hostile action against a creature or a creature taking hostile action against you. In either of the latter cases, they will move to attack that creature.

I think I'm also going to apply the above to undead that are animated or created via spell.

Your DM may not agree with the above, so be sure to talk it over with him or her. In the absence of clear rules, though, one has to make these things up, and I think the above is pretty reasonable.
boozerker
01-10-06, 01:30 PM I may also allow the creator some kind of check to regain control of them from you, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on the mechanics. (Maybe a Will check against a DC equal to the turning roll that commanded them?)

That seems about right.

I'm going to say that you can send mental commands to them as a standard action. You can give them all the same orders or give each one a different order. These commands are not spoken and not heard by anyone else. You may communicate with 1 or all of your commanded undead in a single action. This takes a standard action because it requires a great deal of will power to connect "mentally" with a creature that has no INT. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Also, you may give a single verbal command to one or all of your commanded undead as a free action. Giving a different command to each of your undead or telling 2 of them to do one thing and the rest to do something else is a move equivalent action.

Undead will continue to follow their last order until they are commanded to do something else.

Also, when you first command them, they will do nothing until you direct them to do something, or they see you taking hostile action against a creature or a creature taking hostile action against you. In either of the latter cases, they will move to attack that creature.

I think I'm also going to apply the above to undead that are animated or created via spell.

Sounds good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boozerker 01-05-06, 11:35 AM	Just a quick question about commanding undead, the wording about it in the PHB is a little unclear. The SRD says: The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. Does that mean orders to one undead at a time, so that if you have 5 commanded undead it would take 5 standard actions to tell them all what to do? I'm almost positive that's not the case, but the wording is give mental orders to a commanded undead (a commanded undead = 1 commanded undead). And also another question. Once you have given your mental instructions (as a standard action), you can relax and go back to what you were doing, right? I suppose that you don't have to keep giving mental orders (unless you change your orders). The order could be as simple as "kill enemies" so that once an opponent is downed, the undead moves on to the next opponent. Is this correct? And last, the standard action to command undead is separate from the standard action of giving orders to commanded undead, right? So that if you command undead but are interrupted before having a chance to give mental oreders, they would just stand there doing nothing? Thanks.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-05-06, 12:11 PM	Unfortunately I don't have an answer for this, but I also have a question about manipulating undead, so I hope you don't mind me slipping it into your thread. Undead controlled by virtue of having created them yourself via Animate Dead respond to verbal rather than mental orders. ("This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands." - Player's Handbook) Can a player temporarily turn over control of his created undead by ordering them to Do what X says?
Inigo Carmine 01-05-06, 12:23 PM	Undead controlled by virtue of having created them yourself via Animate Dead respond to verbal rather than mental orders. ("This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands." - Player's Handbook) Can a player temporarily turn over control of his created undead by ordering them to Do what X says? This is gettingly pretty firmly into individual DM discretion area. I don't think you're going to find a written rule one way or another. I would personally allow it, but it would not be foolproof. The undead would probably be susceptible to being tricked into following commands by illusions/glamers (even of poor quality) of person X. ((I would not let the undead be tricked into following commands by illusions/glamers of the actual caster though, because I believe there is an innate connection between the caster of a spell and the spell. This is why only the caster of a spell can dismiss it, and doesn't need to roll spellcraft checks when dispelling it with dispel magic)).
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-05-06, 12:31 PM	Nothing written, eh? Cool... less likely to have a DM favorable to the idea suddenly find something that contradicts it. Now I just have to hit level 6, grab Undead Cohort, and have my special ECL 4 ghoul take over my pair of siege engine zombies while I'm free to cast spells. :plotting: :evillaugh
Inigo Carmine 01-05-06, 12:53 PM	Because of the lack of written rule, I recomend laying the groundwork with your DM ahead of time. Without the written rule behind you, you have less of a stance when you envision it working one way and he invisions it the other way.
Shaggy_Shaggs 01-05-06, 12:58 PM	Oh, I already did talk with the DM, he's cool with handing control of the undead off, and with an ECL 4 ghoul for Undead Leadership despite a typical ghoul cohort being ECL 5. I just know he's begun to peruse these boards and acquire more books, and got concerned that he may stumble across something that says it's no good, and change his mind.
Dyrcona 01-05-06, 01:37 PM	Just a quick question about commanding undead, the wording about it in the PHB is a little unclear. The SRD says: The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. Sounds like the SRD is treating this as something similar to concentrating to maintain a spell. I'd probably think it is more like redirecting a spell, which is a move action rather than a standard action. Does that mean orders to one undead at a time, so that if you have 5 commanded undead it would take 5 standard actions to tell them all what to do? I'm almost positive that's not the case, but the wording is give mental orders to a commanded undead (a commanded undead = 1 commanded undead). In the Hypertext SRD, the very next sentence reads: At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. It's not clear that any connection is drawn between the total number of undead a cleric may command and how many can be commanded as a Standard Action. It seems a rather heavy penalty to pay, the loss of your stand action, to give orders to a single undead. As DM, I'd allow you to control all of your commanded undead as a single Standard Action. A compromise between the two extremes might be to allow the cleric to issue mental commands to a number of commanded undead equal to the character's CHA bonus in a single standard action, since turning and rebuking are keyed off of CHA to begin with. It's also a question of whether or not your DM sees it as "controlling" the undead or as giving them orders. I'm not sure that commanded undead would follow verbal orders from a cleric who has commanded them via the turn/rebuke undead ability. It seems that they'd only follow verbal orders from their creator, so you'd have to be controlling them. Hmm. This opens up an interesting possibility for your questions below. And also another question. Once you have given your mental instructions (as a standard action), you can relax and go back to what you were doing, right? Right, but using a standard action pretty much means you aren't doing much else in that round that is interesting unless you're running away. I suppose that you don't have to keep giving mental orders (unless you change your orders). The order could be as simple as "kill enemies" so that once an opponent is downed, the undead moves on to the next opponent. Is this correct? I started out writing my response by saying that you probably wouldn't. The more that I thought of it, the more that I realized that it all depends on how your DM sees it. If the DM sees the commanding of undead as a battle of wills between your cleric and the creator of the undead (who presumably gave them whatever orders they were following when they attacked), then the DM could very well require your cleric to concentrate on controlling the undead every round, or they do nothing. However, the last sentence in the four-sentence paragraph that describes commanded undead reads as follows: He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones. This sentence implies that you don't have to constantly give them orders because commanding new undead would require that you use a standard action to make another rebuke attempt. And last, the standard action to command undead is separate from the standard action of giving orders to commanded undead, right? So that if you command undead but are interrupted before having a chance to give mental oreders, they would just stand there doing nothing? Thanks. That's debatable. Your DM could be generous and let you issue orders immediately. Your DM could also follow the rules strictly and require you to use another standard action to actually issue orders. The latter means that the undead would be standing around until your next standard action comes up in the next round. I'm not sure that I'd be that hard-nosed about it, myself. Edited to add: An interesting corollarly comes up here as well. How long does the commanding last? Is it only 10 rounds, which is the duration of turning and rebuking, or is it permanent? After all, the commanding is an evil substitute for the good cleric's ability to destroy the undead, a destruction that is permanent. The SRD says Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded. This means that commanding is equivalent to destroying, so what do other DMs and players think? Does this mean that the evil cleric has permanently highjacked control of the undead from their creator, or is it only temporary like turning or rebuking?
Inigo Carmine 01-05-06, 01:53 PM	Boozerker. sorry to seem like I've been ignoring your initial posts, I just honestly don't know the answers to them :) That's debatable. Your DM could be generous and let you issue orders immediately. Your DM could also follow the rules strictly and require you to use another standard action to actually issue orders. The latter means that the undead would be standing around until your next standard action comes up in the next round. I'm not sure that I'd be that hard-nosed about it, myself. I'd probably go a little easy myself as well. I'd treat them similar to summoned creatures in that they attack the nearest targets that are enemies to you as a default command (but unlike summons you don't get to choose where they start out at). I would not allow sophisticated commands to be tacked on to the initial "taking command of" the undead such as having them all attack a specific target, or to attack the ones nearest you, etc. That would require its own command.
boozerker 01-06-06, 09:52 AM	Don't worry about it. It's a bit amusing anyway, a different conversation going on while the question just sat there. I waited, curious to see how long it would go :) Thanks Dyrcona for your response, but I'm still confused. Does a cleric have to keep taking a standard action each round to boss the undead around, or is it a once and done deal? And if so, does the cleric then have to take another standard action to change the command? An interesting corollarly comes up here as well. How long does the commanding last? Is it only 10 rounds, which is the duration of turning and rebuking, or is it permanent? You're right, the description doesn't list a time limit. Hmmm. Interesting. Wonder if that does mean infinite control?
Dyrcona 01-06-06, 10:25 AM	I've been thinking about this and actually working on a write up for my house rules. (I like to keep 'em typed up in a file so I can print it and hand it to my players.) Looking at the PHB doesn't help here, either, because it says the exact same thing as the SRD. Also, the rules FAQ skips over this question. So, what I've decided: If you're an evil cleric and you "command" some undead, they are now yours until they're destroyed, you relinquish control of them, or some other evil cleric commands them. I may also allow the creator some kind of check to regain control of them from you, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on the mechanics. (Maybe a Will check against a DC equal to the turning roll that commanded them?) I'm going to say that you can send mental commands to them as a standard action. You can give them all the same orders or give each one a different order. These commands are not spoken and not heard by anyone else. You may communicate with 1 or all of your commanded undead in a single action. This takes a standard action because it requires a great deal of will power to connect "mentally" with a creature that has no INT. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Also, you may give a single verbal command to one or all of your commanded undead as a free action. Giving a different command to each of your undead or telling 2 of them to do one thing and the rest to do something else is a move equivalent action. Undead will continue to follow their last order until they are commanded to do something else. Also, when you first command them, they will do nothing until you direct them to do something, or they see you taking hostile action against a creature or a creature taking hostile action against you. In either of the latter cases, they will move to attack that creature. I think I'm also going to apply the above to undead that are animated or created via spell. Your DM may not agree with the above, so be sure to talk it over with him or her. In the absence of clear rules, though, one has to make these things up, and I think the above is pretty reasonable.
boozerker 01-10-06, 01:30 PM	I may also allow the creator some kind of check to regain control of them from you, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on the mechanics. (Maybe a Will check against a DC equal to the turning roll that commanded them?) That seems about right. I'm going to say that you can send mental commands to them as a standard action. You can give them all the same orders or give each one a different order. These commands are not spoken and not heard by anyone else. You may communicate with 1 or all of your commanded undead in a single action. This takes a standard action because it requires a great deal of will power to connect "mentally" with a creature that has no INT. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Also, you may give a single verbal command to one or all of your commanded undead as a free action. Giving a different command to each of your undead or telling 2 of them to do one thing and the rest to do something else is a move equivalent action. Undead will continue to follow their last order until they are commanded to do something else. Also, when you first command them, they will do nothing until you direct them to do something, or they see you taking hostile action against a creature or a creature taking hostile action against you. In either of the latter cases, they will move to attack that creature. I think I'm also going to apply the above to undead that are animated or created via spell. Sounds good.