Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endevor 06-20-07, 10:41 AM	Hello everyone, i have a little problem understanding how every special ailities of a Tiger work, i tried to search with google but without any good result. Let's say the Tiger charge a human, it can make all his attacks because he has the pounce abilities plus 2 rakes attacks, the problem is there : he can grab his foe if he hit with a claw or a bite attack, if he hit on the first claw for example, what happen to his claw, bite, rake, rake remaining attacks if he grab his opponent? Does he loose them? Or can he make them at -4 (in the All About Grapple articles they say you can make one attack by natural attack you have at -4) ? If you can't do that can you choose in wich order you make the naturals attacks? And begin with the 2 rakes attacks to finish with the grappling potential attacks? Thank you in advance and sorry for my bad english i am not from us.
Dalthbar 06-20-07, 10:48 AM	So the tiger comes in and pounces you and takes all his attacks, including two rakes. After you've rolled your dice and determined what happened, if the tiger hit with a claw or bite, it would be able to start the grapple. I've always just done this after resolving the full attack routine. So at the end of the tiger's turn, you resolve the grapple check and that determines if the target is grappled or not going into their turn.
tarkin 06-20-07, 11:08 AM	Let's say the Tiger charge a human, it can make all his attacks because he has the pounce abilities plus 2 rakes attacks, That is misleading. The pounce abilities's 2 rakes are part of his attacks. He does NOT get them twice. Instead he gets all of his attacks including the two rakes. Total attacks are one bite, claw, claw, rake, rake. : he can grab his foe if he hit with a claw or a bite attack, if he hit on the first claw for example, what happen to his claw, bite, rake, rake remaining attacks if he grab his opponent? Does he loose them? Or can he make them at -4 Both Pounce and Improved Grab are two different ways to trigger the special attack called Rake. Similar to sneak attack being triggered by either flanking or flatfooted. If you qualify either way or both, you still get the rake/sneak attack one time. You get NO extra benefit from both Pouncing and Improved Grab / Flanking a flat-footed person. So once you pounce, you don't need to try to make the Graple check, it no longer really matters. But you might try to grapple anyway, just because you want to grapple.
runestar 06-20-07, 11:09 AM	My understanding is that you can make the rake attacks only on a successful grapple attack, but you get to make them in that round due to pounce, rather than having to wait until the start of your next round. Thus, I would play it like this: Charge, bite/claw/claw, activate improved grab ability if hit with bite, on successful grab check, follow up with 2 rake attacks (but only if successful).
Jackmojo 06-20-07, 01:35 PM	My understanding is that you can make the rake attacks only on a successful grapple attack, but you get to make them in that round due to pounce, rather than having to wait until the start of your next round. Thus, I would play it like this: Charge, bite/claw/claw, activate improved grab ability if hit with bite, on successful grab check, follow up with 2 rake attacks (but only if successful). But the pounce ability spells out the attack you get: Pounce (Ex) If a lion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. Totally seperate fo the Improved Grab ability: Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake. It looks to me as if Rake is just a modified form of the constrict ability, which has slighlty different triggers. So it appears to me as if a charging lion does its full routine as listed in Pounce (Claw/Claw/Bite/Rake/Rake) and then if its bite hits it can attempt to grapple and if successful rakes one more time. The only confusion is that what attack bonus is the rake at, its not listed anywhere, so how does the lion make two rake attacks on the pounce? Can anyone recall a monster which has rake and either only pounce or improved grab, that might clarify it slightly? Jack
jaelis 06-20-07, 01:50 PM	I think rake attacks are always at your full bonus, whether you are grappling or not. Sphinx's get pounce but not Imp. Grab, and it calls out the attack bonus as the full bonus. The rake ability itself says you don't take a penalty while grappling.
Suin Bahhar 06-20-07, 01:58 PM	You can only make rake attacks if the recipient is already grappled at the start of your turn. Pounce make 3 attack + start grapple, next turn make 2 free rake attacks when attacking in a grapple or pinning.
ShinAkuma2 06-20-07, 02:38 PM	You can only make rake attacks if the recipient is already grappled at the start of your turn. Pounce make 3 attack + start grapple, next turn make 2 free rake attacks when attacking in a grapple or pinning. But the text of Pounce specifically contradicts this, allowing you to Rake outside of a grapple. Pounce When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.
Jackmojo 06-20-07, 02:58 PM	The Sphinx's Rake attacks do seem to shed some light on the stiuation, in each case they're identical to its claw attacks but with only half Str bonus (so they're an odd combination of primary and secondary natural attacks). I also checked on the rake attack for the Fleshraker from MM3, its rake unfortunately confuses the situation, it has a specific attack bonus for it called out, unlike the lion, but its at an odd bonus I'm having trouble deriving the source for. All in all it looks as if any monster with rake is supposed to have an attack bonus for them indicated, unless it can only use them in a grapple (which I have not yet located an example of). Jack Edit: Correcting my above, the lion does indeed have an attack bonus spelled out for its Rake, which is clearly what would come into play during the Pounce attack, as Attack Bonus is not used in a grapple check. The Rake ability itself clarifies that you don;t get the rake attack in the same round the grapple begins, so the correct sequence for the lion should be: charge, claw/claw/bite/rake/rake, if bite hits, grapple, next turn can use its rake twice on the grappled foe as indicated in the Rake ability.
runestar 06-20-07, 10:44 PM	But the text of Pounce specifically contradicts this, allowing you to Rake outside of a grapple. Actually, it only lets you make those rake attacks in the same round as you charge. It does not state that it removes the normal conditions for making them....:P
ShinAkuma2 06-20-07, 11:11 PM	Actually, it only lets you make those rake attacks in the same round as you charge. It does not state that it removes the normal conditions for making them....:P The normal condition for making a Rake attack is that you must begin the round in a grapple. Show me a situation where your average pouncing animal can charge someone he's already grappling and I will concede.
Endevor 06-21-07, 02:09 AM	But with the Tiger you can imp grab with a claw OR bite attack, the imp grab section at the end of the MM say : after a successfull hit you can attempt to grab as a free action. Does that meen you can have 3 grapple attempts one after each claws and bite attacks? My first question remain, what happen in this case with all the other remaining attacks if you decide to grab your foe with the first claw attack?
Jackmojo 06-21-07, 01:14 PM	But with the Tiger you can imp grab with a claw OR bite attack, the imp grab section at the end of the MM say : after a successfull hit you can attempt to grab as a free action. Does that meen you can have 3 grapple attempts one after each claws and bite attacks? My first question remain, what happen in this case with all the other remaining attacks if you decide to grab your foe with the first claw attack? Resolve attacks then resolve grapple checks. Actually, it only lets you make those rake attacks in the same round as you charge. It does not state that it removes the normal conditions for making them.... Check on the various Sphinxs, they only pounce (no improved grab)and gets rakes on the pounce, indicated just like the Lion/tiger oh my... Jack