Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maraxus 04-21-05, 06:17 PM	Hi, I thought about weaponsmithing: There has to be more, than just normal and masterwork quality. Something for the real good smiths, that could produce a masterwork sword each week but rather like to spend some years to create something, that will make them immortal (in the abstract meaning, not lichdom). Has something like that been done before (I bet, but where?;))? And what do you think of this version. I think, they are probably still a bit too weak. But not much, ranks in a skill (even maxed out) should not equal out enchanter feats and level. Any comment is welcome. Rules: The weapon is crafted per standard check, then the masterwork properties are added. The DC for this can be quite high, since every special ability or enhancement increases the DC above 20. Then you calculate the price: Each ability has a root price given. Add them all up and then square the result, to get the average price for such items, the materials cost 1/3 that price. But first we need to make some slightly changes to the craft (weaponsmithing) skill: Craft (weaponsmithing): When creating masterwork items, follow these steps. 1. Leave the price in gold pieces. The prices can be calculated with the table. 2. Find the DC from the table. 3. Make your Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. The result × the DC represents the progress you’ve made this week. Pay 1/3 this value for the raw materials you use this week. 4. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in gold pieces. If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week but you don't waste raw materials, to If you fail by 5 to 9, you ruin the raw materials you would have used this week, worth the DC squared. If you fail by 10 or more, you also loose half of the progress, you have already made. It is not recommended to try a craft, if you can fail that badly. Progress by the Day: You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) is in silver pieces instead of gold pieces. Special: - A dwarf has a +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal, because dwarves are especially capable with stonework and metalwork. - Depending on your tools and the task, you may have helpers. They make their own check against a DC 20 lower. If they succeed, your DC drops by 2, if they fail by 5 or more, your DC increases by 1. Helper may have suphelpers themselves, as long as their DC would be bigger than 0 (So DC 41 for subhelpers, 61 for subsubhelpers and 81 for subsubsubhelpers) - Your tools may give you a bonus, see below. DC Name Root cost Short Description -- ---- --------- ----------- 20 Masterwork 20 First +1 Attack, required +2 Tough 10 +1 Hit point +3 Mundane 20 The weapon has spell resistence +4 Hard 20 +1 Hardness +5 Balanced 30 +1 Attack +5 Sharp 30 +1 Damage +8 Fencing 40 +1 AC when expertise is used +10 Light 50 Can be used with weapon finesse +15 Critical I 80 Improves the strong aspect of the weapon's critical hits +15 Cruel 100 His cause bleeding +25 Critical II 140 Improves the weak aspect of the weapon's critical hits +1 Style 10 Looks cool, attracts fans Detailed description: Masterwork: This is needed for any further enhancement. Requirements: smithy equipment Tough: This adds a hit point for each point. The DC increases by +1, when used on adamantine or iron wood weapons. Requirements: smithy equipment, rare materials (more than half base hit points of the weapon) Max: The base hit points of the weapon again. Mundane: This gives the weapon a spell resistance of 5 +2 per point bought Requirements: professional smithy, cold iron (weapon must be made of it), knowledge arcana: 5 ranks. Max: - Hard: This adds one point of hardness each point. The DC increases by +2, when used on adamantine weapons. Requirements: smithy equipment, rare materials (more than half base hardness of the weapon) Max: The base hardness of the weapon again. Balanced: This gives +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls for each point. Stacks with the masterwork point. Requirements: masterwork equipment, rare materials (Three or more points) Max: +4 (for a total of +5) Sharp: This gives +1 enhancement bonus to damage rolls for each point. When used on bludgeoning weapons, this is called "heavy" and increases the weight by 10% per point. Requirements: masterwork equipment, rare materials (Four or more points) Max: +5 Fencing: When the weapons wielder uses the expertise feat, he gets an additional +1 AC per point - to a maximum equal to the penalty taken with expertise. Requirements: professional smithy, rare materials (Three or more points) Max: +5 Light: The weapon can be used with weapon finesse. It must be one of the following list: 1-handed: Morningstar, Flail, Longsword, Scimitar, 2-handed: Quarterstaff, Falchion, heavy Flail, Bastardsword, Dire Flail, Two bladed sword. Requirements: professional smithy, Balance: 1 rank Max: once Critical I: The effect of this ability depends on the weapon. If (Crit. Multiplier - 2) is greater than (threat range -1), it adds +1 to the multiplier, if (threat range -1) is greater, the threat range increases by 1. On a tie, the smith may choose. This does not stack with keen or improved critical. If the character has such an effect and the improved critical multiplier, he must choose with effect to use before any attacks in a round. (Version 3.0 only: It stacks with Improved critical but not with keen.) Requirements: superior smithy Max: once Cruel: The weapon causes bleeding wounds. In every action, in which the victim of a hit by this weapon does something else then holding it's wounds, it suffers 1 point of damage. Multiple bleedings stack. A Heal check DC 10 stops such a bleeding. Requirements: superior smithy, knowledge (anatomy) 5 ranks Max: once Critical II: Like critical I but it enhances the other aspect. You don't need critical I for critical II. The two abilities stack with each other. Requirements: smithing facility, rare materials Max: once Style: This makes the weapon look cool and unique. It will bring the carrier good reputation and add a Modifier to his Leadership score of +1. Requirements: masterwork equipment, craft (art) 5 ranks, the weapon must have a total root cost of at least 100. Max: once Rare materials: This is included in the raw material price but even bigger cities don't have this available very often. Tools of your work: The cheap smithy equipment costs about 100 gold and weigh about 100 lb. They offer no bonus and don't allow helper. The masterwork tools cost only a little more - 200 gp and offer a +2 bonus (but no helpers). The anvil is quite heavy, the complete set weigh about 500 lb. The professional smithy can not be carried around, the furnace has to build into your house, most other stuff is fixed, too. You have really great hammers. This is, what a smith can be really proud of. It gives a +4 bonus on craft checks and allows a helper. The cost is 2000 gp (not including the house you want it in). The superior smithy is usually only found in castles. Everything is in best quality and there are several specific machines. It offers a +6 bonus and allows you to have 2 helpers each with a subhelper. The cost is 5500 gp The smithing facility is the best support for a smith (or a small guild of them), that can be archived by mudane means. There is no way to describe how great it is, except saying: +8 to the checks, 3 helpers, each with 2 subhelpers and 1 subsubhelper for each of them ... and all this for cheap 10.000 gold The smithing facility can only be surpassed by the arcane facility. A little rift to the plane of elemental fire heats your furnace, strange devices from the gnomes, using even more stange "steam power" can be used, the surface of the anvil is a little wall of force. A stratacical comand center to guide the staff. It offers +10 to the check and allows 3 helpers, with 3 subhelpers, 2 subsub... you can probably guess it. Space for this 49 people is not included. Who wouldn't pay 16.000 gp for this (Delivery time is about a year at the moment, some more money could make this faster).
reese 04-21-05, 06:33 PM	that would be an awesome system for a low magic campaign. some other ideas: Paired: when two weapons are made together for the purpose of weilding both at the same time the attack penalties are dropped by 1 Throwing: any normally non-throwing weapon gains a range increment (see below), no attack penalty and takes less time to throw it. light and one hand weapons: 20 ft, attack action two handed weapons: 10 ft, standard action
Vahenir 04-21-05, 07:09 PM	You have a good idea here, one that I've been implementing for a long time now (or at least, something similar). However: Some of the DCs here are going to be quite unreachable for any but Epic Level characters. A DC increase of +20 is huge. I'd suggest dipping these down significantly, or boosting up a special feat. Perhaps something like: Craft Superior Arms Prerequs: Craft: Weaponsmithing 8 ranks, Knowledge: Weaponry 2 ranks (or something similar) Benefit: When attempting to craft superior weapons, you may reduce the DC of the skill check by one-third, rounded up. But a DC in the 40's isn't going to be attainable. If you have 23 ranks in Craft: Weaponsmith (20th level!), you still need to get a 17 on your die-roll to hit that DC 40. And a natural twenty to get 43. And if the DC is 44 or more, forget about it unless you have bonuses through feats, racial abilities, or unless you've hit epic levels. Anyway.. I'm not a big fan of the Cruel feature. It adds a totally new concept to the game. And it doesn't seem all that fair either. I mean.. I can slam a critical hit into an unarmoured guy with my battle-axe... but I need a Cruel weapon for him to actually bleed? It seems really, really out of place. Tough: Isn't good enough. 1 HP? I suggest putting at a 2-for-1. 2 points of hardness per point spent. Otherwise, it's not nearly as good as anything else. Mundane: Seems too powerful. SR 10 base? I'd drop it down to 5 base. Sharp: If you want to be a bit realistic with tihs (just a suggestion!) you could cause the Sharp enhancement to reduce the weapon's HP by 1 for every point of Sharpness. The sharper you make the edge of the weapon, the easier it chips and breaks. Critical I: This really isn't all that great. And the mechanics for it are clunky. I might suggest having a flat ruling on it. Critical I increases your threat range by one point or your multiplier by one point - smith's choice. I'd also allow this to stack with Improved Critical and Keen (and in my games I allow IC and Keen to stack as well, as per an article by Sean Reynolds). Critical II: If you take my advice for Critical I, you can get rid of this one entirely. If not, I would suggest making Critical I a "smith's choice" ability and get rid of this ability altogether. Style: This is just plain confusing. You can only add it once, and it increases the cost by 1? I think you need to explain this a little better. How about each "rank" of Style the weapon has - it increases the base cost of the weapon by 10%. If you have enough 'Style' put into your weapon to increase its value to 5,000 GP or more, your Leadership score is automatically increased by 1 point for every 5,000 GP your weapon is worth.
jaerad 04-21-05, 07:38 PM	If you're using 2HW and PA, Balanced is far better than Sharp and the DC is the same. In general, I'd consider Balanced more useful. Might consider upping Sharp/Heavy damage to +2, or +3 and a higher DC. ? Just an idea. Hard: This adds one point of hardness each point. The DC increases by +2, when used on adamantine weapons. Requirements: smithy equipment, rare materials (more than half base hardness of the weapon) Max: The base hardness of the weapon again. Might reword that "Max: The base hardness of the weapon times two." Some people are pretty dumb. :) Oh ya, what Vahenir said. He(she?)'s smert.
Vahenir 04-21-05, 07:50 PM	I'm a "he."
Maraxus 04-22-05, 09:58 AM	reese: Thanks. Paired is a good idea, throwing ... no, not really. Nobody can make a rapir fly somehow, that it hits whith the pointy end. greataxe will never fly. Flail will be of no use, too... You can throw this weapons. Take their weigh ano look, what a non-aerodynamic item of this weigh is like as an improviced throwing weapon. No smith can improve this. :) ... However I think a range increase for throwing weapons would be a good idea. Vahenir: Criticism is always welcome. Let me defend it. The DCs should not be to high. I Think a 20th level expert of smithery should have about .... 23 ranks, 14 nat. Int (+2), Headband +6 Int (+3), an arcane smithing facility (+10), 3 Helpers of which 2 get their check every week (+4), be dwarf (+2), feat (+3) and an item for +5 competence bonus (or +10 an he is no dwarf and has no skill focus). This is a total of +51, so DC 60 items should be possible. And I calculated them to be the best, pre epic. Cruel: This is no new ability. Its 3.0 wounding, a little bit watered down. Tough: A small - i mean light weapon has only 2 hit points, every new is great. Mundane: You know, that the Spell resistence is given to the weapon, not the one wearing it, right? Like in "Disintegrate" - *Fighter turns into dusk, weapon drops to the floor unharmed*. That a weapon is attacked by magic is rare enough, I don't think it would be to bad, if the SR was nearly unbeatable for a wizard comparable to the smith. However, I don't want to produce lots of SR 11 weapons, too. Maybe I drop the inicial 10 to 5 and the cost per point a bit. And to leave the order: Style: First I thoght of this as "Makes it unique, makes it a little harder but has no effect at all" Then I thoght: Hey, if somebody has such a stylish weapon, he would have little, useless fanboys running around him (so only 1st level followers, no better cohort or such). And then I thought: But this would still be good, since low level characters would simply take a stylish weapon with nothing else and have more followers, while they are still a bit useful (like as helpers helper ;)) However I agree, that it got quite confusing with the chances, I will see, if I get this easier. And then, the criticals...: 1st: If you allow IC and Keen to stack, you should take the 3.0 rule for it (I didn't mention it, because I thought it would be obvious). 2nd: This would be absolutely overpowered. It's giving like giving weapon master brokenness to everybody - and earlier. Low level characters would spend their money in weapons like this, first and magical enchanters would be unemploed (and don't forget: They pay with feat and XP-costs for thier enchantments). At the moment I'm still worring, this could be too strong. I agree, it is probably a bit clunky (whatever this means ;)) but I'm more a freak for math and balancing. I see whats wrong with my version but I don't jet know, how to change it. jaerad: Attack vs. Damage is a very interesing discussion. If it is a light weapon (or you don't have Power Attack), and hit your opponent all the time, anyway, damage is probably better. There is a feat that gives +1 attack, another gives +2 damage - but is resticted to a class that really needs some superior feats. ... I prefer attack, too, like you. But looking through most material, they are treaded about equal as valueable. And I think they are close enough to agree with that. Might reword that "Max: The base hardness of the weapon times two." Some people are pretty dumb. Might that not lead those people into thinkin, they can tripple the base hit points? :)
Vahenir 04-22-05, 03:18 PM	The DCs should not be to high. I Think a 20th level expert of smithery should have about .... I don't know... first of all - I don't see any reason why the good weapons should be reserved for a 20th level expert to create. Also, I think you're throwing too much magical gear at an NPC. A 20th level expert should have practically no magic items... he's an NPC. So maybe a headband of intellect, or something. But that's not going to help him Craft. And it also doesn't increase his maximum allowable skill points. I'm not saying make the DCs easy. Just drop them down a little on the higher-end ones. Cruel: This is no new ability. Its 3.0 wounding, a little bit watered down Hey, you're right. I'd forgotten about that. I still don't like it, for the reason I mentioned before. But hey, it's your game. That's just my personal opinion. Tough: A small - i mean light weapon has only 2 hit points, every new is great. Precisely. If I'm going to pay to upgrade my weapon's hit points, I want at least some assurances that the bonus is going to do something. A light weapon will almost always get sundered... nothing changes by adding 1 hit point. Adding two, however, gives it at least a fighting chance. 1 hit point is just... way too little reward for spending money on a weapon. There's so much better stuff to get than a single extra hit point. Now two or three hit points might be worth it. Mundane: You know, that the Spell resistence is given to the weapon, not the one wearing it, right? Like in "Disintegrate" - *Fighter turns into dusk, weapon drops to the floor unharmed*. That a weapon is attacked by magic is rare enough, I don't think it would be to bad, if the SR was nearly unbeatable for a wizard comparable to the smith. However, I don't want to produce lots of SR 11 weapons, too. Maybe I drop the inicial 10 to 5 and the cost per point a bit. Yeah, I do suggest (isn't that what I said?) dropping the base from 10 to 5. Because, you're forgetting about a lot of spells that can really screw with a weapon's wielder through the weapon that you'd be granting a huge bonus against: Chill Metal, Heat Metal, etc. SR 10 base is pretty big for cheap.. Like I said, go with a base of 5, that'll weaken it a little while still providing an opportunity for the rich PCs to get an Uber-SR weapon. However I agree, that it got quite confusing with the chances, I will see, if I get this easier. Well think of it like this from a balance perspective: If the PC could afford to buy a MUNDANE or "+1" sword for 20,000 GP, he also could probably afford to hire himself some mercenaries and followers. On the other hand, giving the style weapon a bonus to his leadership score represents him being rich and well-respected (maybe if only for his weapon) and still places the restriction on him that he has to have Leadership in order for the weapon to do anything in that regard. On the Criticals: I don't think it's overpowered to allow a choice of +1 to threat range or +1 to crit multiplier. Nor do I think it's overpowered to stack the effect with keen and Improved Critical. I mean, look at all you're spending. Gold, A feat, and more gold, and lots of it. If someone wants that direction for their character at the expense of other things.. what's wrong with that? Although you should definitely work out a rule about letting all three stack (perhaps all three only increase threat range by one, instead of doubling or anything like that).
Maraxus 04-22-05, 07:16 PM	An 20th level NPC has (after the DM-Guide) 220.000 worth of gear. Not what a PC has but enough for a headband and such all the time (and some magical traps, that make sure nobody steal it from him). About the DCs: I think the weapons at level X should be about this: Level 2: Masterwork. Level 5: +1 Hitpoint, +1 Hardness or +1 damage Level 10: Fencing, +1 Attack or cruel or Improved crit I Level 15: +3 att, +3 dam or critical II or similar Level 20: Critical I and II, SR 30 (50% chance to resist with equal leveled mage ;)), Hardness +6, Hit points +5 or something in this dimensions. And this is achived by the DCs (and dimensions of prices). The important thing is, that this is meant to be an addition to magic, not a replacement. You can make most of this stack with magic. Begin with a +4/+4 weapon through high quallity, then add only +1 magical and a lot of special abilities. About the critical: Let's say, your 12th level fighter with a keen falchion and improved critical deals average 18 damage on a hit. Thread range 12-20. With +1 Crit multiplier this would be average +7.2 damage (+1 damage would be +1.4 average). And the price would be only 10.000, after you, just what is needed to increase a weapon from +2 to +3. I stay with that being a high level ability - and making it not stack with keen.