Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TLStarfighter 08-20-05, 01:31 PM	DISARM As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand. If you’re attempting to disarm a melee weapon, follow the steps outlined here. If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to disarm. (If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a disarm attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your disarm attempt fails. Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the roll. Step Three: Consequences. If you beat the defender, the defender is disarmed. If you attempted the disarm action unarmed, you now have the weapon. If you were armed, the defender’s weapon is on the ground in the defender’s square. If you fail on the disarm attempt, the defender may immediately react and attempt to disarm you with the same sort of opposed melee attack roll. His attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from you. If he fails his disarm attempt, you do not subsequently get a free disarm attempt against him. Note: A defender wearing spiked gauntlets can’t be disarmed. A defender using a weapon attached to a locked gauntlet gets a +10 bonus to resist being disarmed. Grabbing Items You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack. If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn’t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above. You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt. Everyone knows that you can disarm weapons, what I would like to focus on is the grabing items section. How could you abuse this trick to disable various opponents? Things that come easily to mind are flipping away a cleric or paladin's holy symbol. Cutting the strings on a wizard's spell components pouch. Take the instrument out of an enemy bard's hands. All of these simple checks can put a real dent in a casters ability to use their magic. What other ideas do people have for taking away key items from enemies using the grabbing items rules for disarm? Thanks, TLStarfighter
Dragonsblood 08-20-05, 01:48 PM	I don't see your ideas as an "abuse." Seems like that would be what this aspect of the skill was designed for. Add to the list, wands and any sort of amulet. Possibly loose fitting hats and circlets.
Nuntius128 08-20-05, 01:54 PM	Belts? Anyone? :D
TLStarfighter 08-20-05, 01:59 PM	I don't see your ideas as an "abuse." Seems like that would be what this aspect of the skill was designed for. Add to the list, wands and any sort of amulet. Possibly loose fitting hats and circlets. You're right, it isn't really abuse. That is just for title pizaz. However, I think a creative player can do somethings with this that their DM did not anticipate that could greatly affect the outcome of some battles. It is also a feat tree that you can get quite good at early in the game so you can use the trick through out your character's career.
James Wildspell 08-21-05, 04:48 AM	There is another aspect of disarming that comes to mind: when you don't want to harm an opponent. Your party meets a Dominated NPC who attacks. You have a reason to not kill the NPC. Disarming her might be your first, best option. Similar examples are easy to imagine.... :twocents: :twocents: :twocents:
Mirtek 08-21-05, 06:34 AM	Things that come easily to mind are flipping away a cleric or paladin's holy symbol. That would work, but onyl with either an ready action triggered when the cleric/paladin starts spellcasting or as an AoO if the cleric/pala doesn't succeed in his defensive casting. The first is not really desireable, since you just waste your round if the cleric/pala isn't casting but attacking. The second is unlikely at higher levels, since the checks for defensive casting become auto successes. Cutting the strings on a wizard's spell components pouch. Take the instrument out of an enemy bard's hands. I wouldn't allow that, because IMO the wizards never actually wields the pouch. It's hanging at his belt and he just merely grabs in and takes something out without removing it from his belt and taking it in his hand. Thus it's a worn item, not a wielded item and IMO won't qualitfy for disarm (same for a holy symbol until the cleric/paladin takes it into his hand to cast. Until then it's worn an not something you can disarm)
Particle 08-21-05, 09:30 AM	You cant disarm a spellcomponent pouch. But you can sunder it. I like the Eschew materials feat, especially if granted trough a PrC.
beezly 08-21-05, 09:59 AM	You can hold your action until the enemy cleric/paladin goes for his symbol, then grab it when he holds it up.
Molu Kai 08-21-05, 10:24 AM	Some of you didn't even read the grabbing items section of the SRD that is posted right at the top of this page. You CAN disarm items that are worn (ie) a pouch or holy symbol attached to a belt.
killbot 08-21-05, 11:04 AM	How about an archers quiver, that would annoy him. Or better yet the bag of holding? Goodies for everyone.
Pliskit 08-21-05, 11:18 AM	What would be really easy with this feat is to grab Ioun stones out of the sky, thereby nerving your opponent and buffing yourself :) In the description of Ioun stones it just says "...a stone must be grasped or netted to seperate it frot its owner." Piece of cake!
TLStarfighter 08-21-05, 12:41 PM	That would work, but onyl with either an ready action triggered when the cleric/paladin starts spellcasting or as an AoO if the cleric/pala doesn't succeed in his defensive casting. The first is not really desireable, since you just waste your round if the cleric/pala isn't casting but attacking. The second is unlikely at higher levels, since the checks for defensive casting become auto successes. You can disarm objects that aren't being weilded. The PHB actually gives examples of items that are loosely secured and thus grant you a +4 bonus to your disarm attempt, cloak and broach, and the items that are tightly secured and as such require you to be grappling to disarm them, ring or bracelet. I would argue that a holy symbol is much closer to the cloak/broach than a ring/bracelet. Best case scenario you get a +4 bonus to take it away even when they aren't casting spells. Worst case scenario you get to take away with just your normal disarm attempt bonuses. I wouldn't allow that, because IMO the wizards never actually wields the pouch. It's hanging at his belt and he just merely grabs in and takes something out without removing it from his belt and taking it in his hand. Thus it's a worn item, not a wielded item and IMO won't qualitfy for disarm (same for a holy symbol until the cleric/paladin takes it into his hand to cast. Until then it's worn an not something you can disarm) As noted above you can disarm worn items. I think that you could easily rule that a spell component puch can't be tightly secured as that would prevent the wizard from having easy access to it. They key to making this all work is spending some skill points on knowledge skills so that you can make checks to determine what is a holy symbol and which pouch holds the spell components. (Knowledge Religion and Spell Craft or Knowledge Arcane) The only other hiccup I see is an annoyed DM may attempt to have NPCs conceal their vital items until the last moment. To counter this I think that the player will need to know the rules for drawing items from concealed locations. I'm guessing that it at least requires an extra action and at best would grant an Attack of Opportunity. I'll post back later after I have done some research. If anyone else has ideas or specific knowledge on things like that please feel free to post them. I'd appreciate the help. Thanks, TLStarfighter
killbot 08-21-05, 02:20 PM	Remember though, anything a player can do a NPC can do better.
TLStarfighter 08-21-05, 04:20 PM	Move Action_________________________Attack of Opportunity Move_______________________________Yes Control a frightened mount_____________Yes Direct or redirect an active spell_________No Draw a weapon_______________________No Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow__Yes Open or close a door__________________No Mount a horse or dismount_____________No Move a heavy object_________________Yes Pick up an item______________________Yes Sheathe a weapon___________________Yes Stand up from prone__________________Yes Ready or loose a shield________________No Retrieve a stored item_____________Yes It seems to me that if an item is hidding underneath armor or clothing so that it can not be disarmed (like a spell component pouch), then the wearer would be subject to a Retrieve stored item Attack of Opportunity as well as using up a move action to get the components. TLStarfighter
Particle 08-21-05, 05:57 PM	Just carry a Robe or vest are something with some pouches, and put your components into them. They are part of your clothes, so no disarming.
Cayl 08-21-05, 07:14 PM	Pockets for the win. Please refer to your 3.5 PHB pg 142 under "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon". To summarize, Wands are given as an example of a weaponlike item that does not provoke an AoO to draw from a location of easy reach. I think Holy Symbols and spell components easily could fall into the "weaponlike object" category. Storing an item in a pack is given as an example of "out of easy reach" which would invoke your Retrieve a Stored Item AoO.
ClementWillowbreaker 08-21-05, 08:10 PM	Note that retrieving spell components from a pouch is part of casting the spell. Pulling spell components out of anything else is "Retrieve a stored item", takes a move action, and provokes *another* AoO. You can't hide your darts and bat guano deep in your backpack so no one can take them from you, and expect to get them out as a non-action.
TLStarfighter 08-22-05, 01:53 AM	Pockets for the win. Please refer to your 3.5 PHB pg 142 under "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon". To summarize, Wands are given as an example of a weaponlike item that does not provoke an AoO to draw from a location of easy reach. I think Holy Symbols and spell components easily could fall into the "weaponlike object" category. Storing an item in a pack is given as an example of "out of easy reach" which would invoke your Retrieve a Stored Item AoO. It would also be useful to note Table 8-2 on page 141 of the PHB. You will find there that sheathing a weapon is a move action that will provoke an attack of opportunity. So if you were to rule that spell components are weapon like objects, then putting those away will draw an AoO. So the cleric's holy symbol will get them into trouble, several mage spells require reusable components like glass rods and rabit fur. If you treat it like a weapon I may not get an AoO when you take it out but I certainly get one when you put it away. Moreover, if you read the text clearly of the Draw/Sheath section it specifically states that you can draw a weapon like item that is carried within easy reach with out incuring an attack of opportunity. Thinking about the examples provided it would seem that easy reach for a spell component would be in the spell component pouch which is addressed in the material components section of chapter 10.(After all, weapons are kept in exterior sheaths not under your clothing) Also, the rules for Attacks of Opportunity indicate that any action which may draw your attention from battle will provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have ever tried to hurridly answer a ringing cell phone, when you have to remember what pocket you shoved it into, and had to avoid the sword wielding maniac who was intent on skewring you, then you may have some idea as to why I think storing your spell components in tightly secured containers would probably warrent attacks of opportunity. Or to put it much more simply, in order for a spell component container to be easily reached, it can not be tightly secured, and as such can be disarmed. If the container is tightly secured, then getting into it will distract you enough from the battle at hand that you would place yourself at risk for an Attack of Opportunity. This applies to garments with pockets as easily as it does pouches. The robe full of pouches will have to be loosely secured in order for you to easily get into it. If I can disarm a loosely secured cloak with a +4 bonus I can remove a loosely secured robe. Finally, your DM would have to be meta gaming if they throw casters who have well secured spell components at you when the PHB clearly indicates that the rest of the spell casting community store their material components in an easily accessible spell component pouch. Thanks, TLStarfighter