Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Fan 01-30-07, 11:12 AM	In numerous anime or martial arts films, a character will draw their sword and cut a falling leaf, or they will manage to pluck a falling leaf out of the air with two fingers. It's such a cliche that some people don't even realize how hard, nearly impossible it is to do so. by the RAW, a falling leaf would probably be a Fine object with AC 11 (-5 for no dex score, -2 for object, +8 for size). That hardly does justice to it, since the slightest breeze could cause the leaf to fall off course and ruin your attack. Attacking a falling leaf should be much harder. Even if we take away the -2 penalty since it's not stationary, it's still only 13. removing the Dex penalty may be a good solution since even though it's not truly dodging, the net effect is that it avoids your attack. That brings it up to 18. Impressive, but somehow it still feels too low. Any suggestions?
FntsyWlkr 01-30-07, 11:17 AM	... maybe a speed/moving bonus to AC. Also a camoflauge/concealment bonus.
CantripN 01-30-07, 11:19 AM	Nah. AC 13 is quite hard to hit for ordinary people. I'd give it +2 for unpredictable movent, as well. So it'd end up AC 15. Which is impressive, for a leaf.
StevenO 01-30-07, 11:50 AM	Drop either the -5 Dex penalty or the -2 Object Penalty; I recommend dropping the Dex penalty. Having Dex 0 implies no motion which is definitely NOT the case here while the penalty for attacking an object can be considered it not trying to avoid the attack. Catching a falling leaf is difficult but is also far from impossible. The reason it is hard is because air displacement caused by movement toward the object causes the object to move away.
jaelis 01-30-07, 11:57 AM	I'd give it a decent deflection bonus, to reflect the fact that it is pushed away by air currents. (Usually deflection pushes the weapon aside, I suppose, but it's the same principle.)
The_Fan 01-30-07, 12:02 PM	Nah. AC 13 is quite hard to hit for ordinary people. I'd give it +2 for unpredictable movent, as well. So it'd end up AC 15. Which is impressive, for a leaf. Yeah, but an ordinary person would still be able to hit an AC 15 leaf about 25% of the time. I can tell you from experience that that is not the case, even assuming I have a 0 attack bonus. It also has to be a solid enough hit to either skewer or slice the leaf.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-30-07, 12:03 PM	How about catching a fly with chopsticks? P.S. The_Fan love the name, and I dig the movie reference!
enygmatic_me 01-30-07, 12:12 PM	I've never seen hitting a falling leaf as being overly difficult. Given no outside influences such as wind AC 11 seems reasonable. If there is a source air movement then increase the AC based on that. The difficult part of cutting a falling leaf is the actual cutting. The blade needs to be sharp or it is just going to push the leaf without cutting cleanly through it.
The_Fan 01-30-07, 12:21 PM	How about catching a fly with chopsticks? P.S. The_Fan love the name, and I dig the movie reference! uh...no, not a movie reference...actually hated that movie, but my name is a contraction of a name I had on another forum about 10 years ago (long story), and I've kinda stuck with it ever since.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-30-07, 12:23 PM	The movie actually has some relation to your predicament. The main character threw knives, and hit a bug from 20 feet away no problem. So it could be adjusted for the leaf :P
CantripN 01-30-07, 12:25 PM	Ah, but some of us have negative modifiers. Me, I miss because I suck, not because it's hard to do.
boozerker 01-30-07, 12:54 PM	AC 10 (moving) +4 (diminutive) +2 (dodge bonus from crazy midair swaying) = AC 16 Hitting a leaf lightly isn't difficult. You could do so unarmed. Hitting with enough force to damage is the real challenge. So a leaf's "gentle" touch AC should be half of its final value. *As houserules* For every 10 mph of wind (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/wildernessAndEnvironment.html#table-wind-effects), add 1d4 dodge bonus to AC (if you want to base its AC modifiers on wind severity rather than every 10 mph increments of speed, check the link) +4 Dodge bonus against a bludgeoning weapon (to account for the air movement that preceeds it).
crimsonwolf 01-30-07, 01:12 PM	ac10 for moving ac 4 for being so small ac 2 for the moving stuff again ac 3 for actully having to hit past air movment ac 2 skilll u do the math .. how uber in the anime are ones sliceing leaves?
RavenDrake 01-30-07, 01:23 PM	Hitting the leaf is actually easy... I mean, I can throw a golfball up in the air and hit it on the way down with a club no problems... hitting a leaf of similar size with a sword should be about as easy. However, most dimunitive or fine objects are resistant or immune to melee weapon damage(as with swarms) simply because they're so light striking them just pushes them around. Cutting a falling leaf is what requires skill.
Shadowfax7 01-30-07, 01:24 PM	Drop either the -5 Dex penalty or the -2 Object Penalty; I recommend dropping the Dex penalty. Having Dex 0 implies no motion which is definitely NOT the case here while the penalty for attacking an object can be considered it not trying to avoid the attack.I agree with StevenO, drop the Dex penalty, not the object penalty. A normal leaf is definitely a Fine size object, thus AC 16. On top of that a +2 to +4 circumstance bonus to AC for the wind/breeze moving the leaf seems reasonable, for a total AC of 18 to 20.
tarkin 01-30-07, 03:30 PM	I am chipping in. Objects have no dex, which is different from a dex of 0. They get no penalty to hit and no benefit from dex. You were House Ruling when you gave them the -5, the Core rules do not grant it. That makes it AC 18. I see no reason for any other bonuses or penalties. If it was on the ground or on a tree, not moving at all, then I could see removing the base +10. (I.E. To hit me it it is base +10 + 8 for size = 18.)
The_Fan 01-30-07, 04:16 PM	An object’s Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon. Relevant section of SRD. Obviously, you can't line up an attack against a falling leaf unless it's on the ground in which case this makes the whole point moot.
lint trap 01-30-07, 04:37 PM	I have seen only one game reference to this kind of thing. Check the Planar Handbook, pg. 178. It says that the AC to pin a leaf with an arrow on a target is 30.
Thiez 01-30-07, 04:47 PM	Heh, that has little to do with AC. Remember kids, when making a ranged attack with a bow or a crossbow or a sling, your ammo is destroyed. That means by RAW, pinning a leaf with an arrow (from a distance) is actually impossible.
WinterPsionic 01-30-07, 04:51 PM	Aren't you guys forgetting about the wooden plating, deflection bonus from "Gust of Wind" and the obviously epic dodge skill? :P
Thiez 01-30-07, 04:53 PM	Just stick with the 'official' RAW AC of 11 (or 13, if you don't consider the falling leaf to be an inanimate object) , then add circumstance bonuses as you see fit.
Tony Vargas 01-30-07, 09:24 PM	You could just treat the leaf as attended - it's being moved around by the breeze. Assign a dex bonus based how much it's being blow about, instead of the -7 for a stationary unattended inanimate object. Though, I also like the deflection bonus idea.
Fencerboy 01-30-07, 10:06 PM	Catching a fly with chopsticks is pretty hard... (obviously)... Next try a wasp with a bare hand and killing it before you get stung (don't if you're allergic) And a falling leaf isn't very hard to hit, actually, if you can concentrate.
Despana 01-30-07, 10:32 PM	Heh, that has little to do with AC. Remember kids, when making a ranged attack with a bow or a crossbow or a sling, your ammo is destroyed. That means by RAW, pinning a leaf with an arrow (from a distance) is actually impossible. Destroyed doesn't (always) mean disintegrated. All it means is that the ammunition is damaged to the point were you can no longer use it as ammunition. The shaft of the arrow breaks (leaving the head imbedded), the bullet deforms, etc.
Rollie 01-30-07, 10:43 PM	Whatever Bonuses you put on it to reflect its various abilities, it should have about 18-20 AC in light-moderate winds. It is difficult for an untrained (BAB+0), person to catch a leaf, but not impossible
enygmatic_me 01-31-07, 04:05 AM	Humming Bird 25 miles per hour or .4166666675 miles a minute or 2200 feet per minute or 110 feet per 3 seconds (one round) with perfect maneuverability. Base AC 10 Fine Sized (+8 AC) Dexterity 18 (+4 AC) Total AC 22 I don’t think a leaf is harder to hit than a hummingbird.
Thiez 01-31-07, 04:27 AM	One round is 6 seconds, not 3.
boozerker 01-31-07, 09:16 AM	Humming Bird 25 miles per hour or .4166666675 miles a minute or 2200 feet per minute or 110 feet per 3 seconds (one round) with perfect maneuverability. Base AC 10 Fine Sized (+8 AC) Dexterity 18 (+4 AC) Total AC 22 I don’t think a leaf is harder to hit than a hummingbird. Where'd you find those stats? Looking at the PHB (p. 149), they list a fly as an example of a fine-sized creature, and a toad (which is nearer the size of a humming bird) as diminutive-sized.
planetouched 01-31-07, 06:45 PM	In those crazy animes with the swords, theres always an amount of grace that goes with this feat. So I dont think a level 13 barbarian with a total attack bonus of +16 would be able to do it. I think there should be a skill check to go along with the AC. Maybe a slieght of hand check to make it more of a graceful characters skill, rather than a powerful one. Maybe even a Iijustu focus check? Nah, I'd bury that skill...
Lord_Tirian 01-31-07, 06:57 PM	Falling leaf is a fine object, right? Then let's keep it simple and see it as an "animated object", since it moves around. Then we take the Animated Object, Tiny as a base, and shrink it to Diminutive - due to the +2 Dex increase AND the size bonus, we arrive at AC 17 with 2 hp. If we suppose it as "Fine", we get AC 22 (also 2 hp). And everybody who has seen wildly swirling leaves could agree that the motion of swirling leaves has something elegant, an almost living, fluid motion. Just my 2 cp.
Grave_Accomplice 01-31-07, 07:28 PM	Yeah, but an ordinary person would still be able to hit an AC 15 leaf about 25% of the time. I can tell you from experience that that is not the case, even assuming I have a 0 attack bonus. It also has to be a solid enough hit to either skewer or slice the leaf. Like you said, hitting is less of a problem than hitting properly. Children can catch a falling leaf about 25% of the time; doesn't mean they can cut one. :) Keep the AC 13 (10 + 8 Fine size [I don't think you'll be targeting leaves over 6 inches], -5 Object), but use the concealment miss chances to simulate the leaf evading (whichever total works for you). It's not truely concealed but the mechanic should still work. Folks who practice striking leaves can roll the appropriate skill (concentration for monks, iaijutsu for iai duelists, etc) to reduce the miss chance. No real game bonus, but the character might enjoy the RP challenge. Maybe you can add a reward or make it a prereq for soemething they want.
Grave_Accomplice 01-31-07, 07:34 PM	Where'd you find those stats? Looking at the PHB (p. 149), they list a fly as an example of a fine-sized creature, and a toad (which is nearer the size of a humming bird) as diminutive-sized. There are toads big enough to eat a hummingbird via Swallow Whole!! Toads can be well over 6" across. I haven't seen a hummingbird over that range.