AC of a helpless opponent [Archive] - Wizards Community

AC of a helpless opponent [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadowfax7
11-17-04, 03:18 PM From the 3.5 SRD:

HELPLESS DEFENDERS
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks.
A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).

Am I correct in reading the above as stating that a helpless opponent has a -9 penalty to AC against melee attacks ??

And is there a difference I am not seeing between a helpless opponent and a helpless defender, as the RAW distinguishes among the two terms ??
LukiLoki
11-17-04, 03:30 PM Am I correct in reading the above as stating that a helpless opponent has a -9 penalty to AC against melee attacks ??

Could be more, actually. If the character in question had a positive modifier for Dex., then he loses that due to effective Dex. being 0.
So, a character with an 18 Dex. actually takes an effective -13 to AC.
-9 (+4 reduced to -5)
-4 for being helpless.
Tsuul
11-17-04, 03:42 PM You have the gist.
And no differenct between opponent and defender as far as I know in the helpless rules.
Shadowfax7
11-17-04, 04:07 PM Thanx for those clarifications.
Thorak
11-17-04, 09:34 PM It's even worse in some cases. If you're Helpless because you fell unconscious, you're probably Prone. Which is another -4 to your AC against melee attacks.

Though it helps against Ranged attacks. You're still lying there like a lump, and have an effective Dex of 0, but you get +4 AC because you're Prone and hard to hit.
Shir'Kazan
11-17-04, 11:10 PM It's even worse in some cases. If you're Helpless because you fell unconscious, you're probably Prone.

Have to disagree with you on that. Prone target get -4 to AC because of their "helpless" condition. It doesnt matter if you're Held helpless by Hold person or lying sleeping on the ground (the rule also mentions "sleeping" under the examples of helpless, I dont think they count in a Cow sleeping while standing). Though you're correct as for Ranged attacks - it matters how "high" is your profile.

As for effective DEX of 0, fighters may look at the bright side: if their original DEX has negative modifier they loose less AC :D
Thorak
11-17-04, 11:31 PM Have to disagree with you on that. Prone target get -4 to AC because of their "helpless" condition. It doesnt matter if you're Held helpless by Hold person or lying sleeping on the ground (the rule also mentions "sleeping" under the examples of helpless, I dont think they count in a Cow sleeping while standing). Though you're correct as for Ranged attacks - it matters how "high" is your profile.

As for effective DEX of 0, fighters may look at the bright side: if their original DEX has negative modifier they loose less AC :D
It seems that way, but it isn't. You're Helpless if you're Held standing up. Or bound to a chair. Or what have you. You're not necessarily lying down.

And you can be Prone, very easily, without being Helpless. Get tripped, lie down and be ready to roll to either side (because you retain your Dex bonus to AC when prone), lie down to make it harder for enemy archers to hit you, etc, etc.

Helpless and Prone are two very different situations, and they're neither mutually exclusive nor does either require the other at any point. So if you're lying on the ground Helpless, you're both Helpless and Prone, and should suffer both sets of penalties.

A lot of those modifiers don't stack; it does't matter if you're blind if you're already helpless, and it's hard to be sitting when you're prone. But not all of them are; it's possible to be helpless and not prone, or prone and not helpless, or both prone AND helpless. So the penalties can stack.
Zherog
11-18-04, 10:04 AM You are most definitely not helpless while prone.

And you can be Prone, very easily, without being Helpless. Get tripped, lie down and be ready to roll to either side (because you retain your Dex bonus to AC when prone),

This is really the key. If you were helpless while prone, you'd be a valid target for sneak attacks - and that's not the case.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 11-17-04, 03:18 PM	From the 3.5 SRD: HELPLESS DEFENDERS A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him). Am I correct in reading the above as stating that a helpless opponent has a -9 penalty to AC against melee attacks ?? And is there a difference I am not seeing between a helpless opponent and a helpless defender, as the RAW distinguishes among the two terms ??
LukiLoki 11-17-04, 03:30 PM	Am I correct in reading the above as stating that a helpless opponent has a -9 penalty to AC against melee attacks ?? Could be more, actually. If the character in question had a positive modifier for Dex., then he loses that due to effective Dex. being 0. So, a character with an 18 Dex. actually takes an effective -13 to AC. -9 (+4 reduced to -5) -4 for being helpless.
Tsuul 11-17-04, 03:42 PM	You have the gist. And no differenct between opponent and defender as far as I know in the helpless rules.
Shadowfax7 11-17-04, 04:07 PM	Thanx for those clarifications.
Thorak 11-17-04, 09:34 PM	It's even worse in some cases. If you're Helpless because you fell unconscious, you're probably Prone. Which is another -4 to your AC against melee attacks. Though it helps against Ranged attacks. You're still lying there like a lump, and have an effective Dex of 0, but you get +4 AC because you're Prone and hard to hit.
Shir'Kazan 11-17-04, 11:10 PM	It's even worse in some cases. If you're Helpless because you fell unconscious, you're probably Prone. Have to disagree with you on that. Prone target get -4 to AC because of their "helpless" condition. It doesnt matter if you're Held helpless by Hold person or lying sleeping on the ground (the rule also mentions "sleeping" under the examples of helpless, I dont think they count in a Cow sleeping while standing). Though you're correct as for Ranged attacks - it matters how "high" is your profile. As for effective DEX of 0, fighters may look at the bright side: if their original DEX has negative modifier they loose less AC :D
Thorak 11-17-04, 11:31 PM	Have to disagree with you on that. Prone target get -4 to AC because of their "helpless" condition. It doesnt matter if you're Held helpless by Hold person or lying sleeping on the ground (the rule also mentions "sleeping" under the examples of helpless, I dont think they count in a Cow sleeping while standing). Though you're correct as for Ranged attacks - it matters how "high" is your profile. As for effective DEX of 0, fighters may look at the bright side: if their original DEX has negative modifier they loose less AC :D It seems that way, but it isn't. You're Helpless if you're Held standing up. Or bound to a chair. Or what have you. You're not necessarily lying down. And you can be Prone, very easily, without being Helpless. Get tripped, lie down and be ready to roll to either side (because you retain your Dex bonus to AC when prone), lie down to make it harder for enemy archers to hit you, etc, etc. Helpless and Prone are two very different situations, and they're neither mutually exclusive nor does either require the other at any point. So if you're lying on the ground Helpless, you're both Helpless and Prone, and should suffer both sets of penalties. A lot of those modifiers don't stack; it does't matter if you're blind if you're already helpless, and it's hard to be sitting when you're prone. But not all of them are; it's possible to be helpless and not prone, or prone and not helpless, or both prone AND helpless. So the penalties can stack.
Zherog 11-18-04, 10:04 AM	You are most definitely not helpless while prone. And you can be Prone, very easily, without being Helpless. Get tripped, lie down and be ready to roll to either side (because you retain your Dex bonus to AC when prone), This is really the key. If you were helpless while prone, you'd be a valid target for sneak attacks - and that's not the case.