AC problems level 20 [Archive] - Wizards Community

AC problems level 20 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dragonseth
05-27-05, 04:08 PM I am currently working on a little spinoff of D&D where we make teams of 4 level 20 guys and fight to the death in a pit and the winning team gets more xp and money. (Don't have time for full adventures.) Anyway, I was building my team and noticed I had attack bonuses in like the 40 range and ACs in the 30s. Maybe I bought too many manuals of gainful exercise or what, but I was baffled at the difference. I tried my hardest to get the ACs that high but failed. +5 armors, amulets, rings, natural armor whatever I couldn't manage to get it to a good number. Anyone know a good way to get it up high? :weep:
Steely Glint
05-27-05, 04:16 PM Attack bonus just tends to increase faster than armor class. Its a lot easier to get a massive attack bonus at high levels than it is to get a massive armor class (as you've found out). Most of the methods for getting huge ACs (getting several stats to AC, polymorphing into creatures with a lot of natural armor, etc.) are pretty cheesy.

Remember, the iterative attacks (-5/-10/-15) still may have trouble hitting a high AC. Power attack can also be used to burn off excess attack bonus in exchange for extra damage, and combat expertise will boost AC at the expense of attack bonus.
Inigo Carmine
05-27-05, 04:18 PM Attack bonuses are supposed to outstrip AC at that level (I don't know about the flat attack bonus beating AC, but the first attack from a fighter should be almost a garunteed hit). High AC is there mostly to prevent iterative attacks and such.

Miss chance is what rules the day at those levels. Get yourself a cloak of displacement (or whichever one forces a flat 50% chance to miss you) if you want to protect yourself from attacks.
Zherog
05-27-05, 04:21 PM Halfling Monk:
-- Wisdom 34 (18 start, 5 level increases, +5 Tome, +6 Periapt of Wisdom) = 12 bonus
-- Dexterity 31 (18 start, +2 racial, +5 Tome, +6 gloves of dex) = 10 bonus
-- Bracers of Armor +8 armor bonus
-- Ring of Protection +5 deflection bonus
-- Amulet of Natural Armor +5 natural armor bonus (needs to be stacked special on periapt of wisdom, so it'll cost more)
-- Luck stone +1 luck
-- Take the Saint template; grants Wisdom to AC as an insight bonus = 12 more.
-- have a friendly mage cast shield - +4 shield bonus
-- +1 size bonus

Total = 10 (base) + 12 (Wisdom) + 10 (dex) + 8 (armor) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (natural armor) + 1 (luck) + 12 (insight) + 4 (shield) + 1 (size) = 68

And that's pretty weak. Go check out the Character Optimization board, and you'll find some ACs well over 100.

edit: I forgot the size bonus
ashcat_lt
05-27-05, 04:21 PM Zherog posted simultaneously with me, and I think did a better job, so nevermind.
tarkin
05-27-05, 04:24 PM There are several reasons for this.

One of them is that while your FIRST attack goes to 40, your last attack is only at 25.

The basic rule of thumb is that 50% of all your full round attacks should miss.

That obviously means that by the time hit 40th level, your first attack should be a certain hit.

Secondly, by the time you hit 20th level, touch attacks and incorporeal touch attacks can be VERY common. As such, getting non-ac based defenses is very important. For this reason a lot of people decide to go for the cloak of displacment, a set 20% miss chance, or similar effects.
Sinon
05-27-05, 04:28 PM Pre epic
Best armor - +5 full plate (13)
Heavy armor optimization (1)
Deflection (5)
Natural (5*)
Tower shield +5 (9)
Max Dex (1)

I get AC 44. Not the greatest when opponents have +40 to hit as you described.

Maximum possible dex: 20 starting (e.g. elf) + 5 level adjustment + 5 inherent + 5 enhancement = dex 35 (bonus +12)
+12 dex + 8 Bracers of armor + 5 deflection + 5 Natural +7 shield = AC 47
A bit better. But not much.

At this level, with a situation where people's only goals are going to be maximizing to hit, damage, and AC, I'd look at things that provide cover and/or concealment, such as a cloak of displacement. A 50% miss chance doesn't care what your to-hit roll was.

*There maybe ways to get natural armor higher, but I think most those require you to have natural armor of some sort naturally.

edit:Many people did this better and faster than I
Zherog
05-27-05, 04:34 PM *There maybe ways to get natural armor higher, but I think most those require you to have natural armor of some sort naturally.

Sure - use the stuff I posted previously; get an alter self ability, and change yourself from a Halfling into a Troglodyte. You'll lose the +1 size bonus in my list above, but you'll gain +6 more in Natural Armor, for an increase of +5, bringing the total to 73.
tarkin
05-27-05, 04:46 PM And at the very least Sinon should have Mithral Full Plate, allowing a Dex of 3, not 1.
Zherog
05-27-05, 04:48 PM Actually, I forgot the bonus monks get to Armor Class - add 4 more to my builds above. ;)
Sinon
05-27-05, 05:05 PM Correct about the mithral. It would have to go to the tower shield as well; it has a max dex of 2 without the mithral.

Like I said: better and faster. (It would have been nice to at least have gotten my under-whelming AC up before the better ones.)
ashcat_lt
05-28-05, 12:16 PM Pre epic
Best armor - +5 full plate (13)
Heavy armor optimization (1)
Deflection (5)
Natural (5*)
Tower shield +5 (9)
Max Dex (1)

I get AC 44. Not the greatest when opponents have +40 to hit as you described.

Mithral Mountain Plate +5 (RoS) is actually better. Armor Bonus becomes 15, Max Dex 2, AC=47. Also if it were a dwarf deepwarden you could apply Con to AC rather than Dex, which is more useful for an armored "tank" style build(because it also gives you hit points). There are ongoing debates as to whether or not the max dex of the armor applies to this Con bonus, but if not, you could say
Con=18+2 level increase(save some for strength!)+5inherent(manual)+6amulet of health=31(+10), which gives us AC55. Need to roll a 15 to hit.

Then give him a dusty rose prism ioun stone for +1 insight bonus to AC. Make sure the tower shield is animated, and give him a defending greataxe +5, this gives us AC 61, which means only a 20 will hit.

If you've got the cash left (i haven't tallied it, but those manuals alone are pretty pricey) make sure the armor has heavy fortification, spell resistance, and as many different energy resistances as you can afford. Oh yeah, and ghost touch, please. And yeah, get the major cloak of displacement and make sure none of your battles last more than 15 rounds.
ashcat_lt
05-28-05, 12:32 PM You could make Zherog's halfling saint monk into a jemlaine and get another +2 Dex bonus (racial +6 to dex), +6 Wis bonus (racial +6 Wis, counted twice), +1 for size = 81 (with the +4 for monk AC bonus that he left out of his original post)

Course it wouldn't actually threaten an area and wouldn't do a whole lot of damage (racial Str-8), but nobody'd never hit the little bugger.
ashcat_lt
05-28-05, 01:04 PM Then give him a dusty rose prism ioun stone for +1 insight bonus to AC. Make sure the tower shield is animated, and give him a defending greataxe +5, this gives us AC 61, which means only a 20 will hit.

While you're at it, stick some +5 defending spikes on the tower shield, that'll give you AC66.

Give the jemlaine monk Dodge and at least 5 ranks in Tumble. Also an Amulet of Natural Weapons + 5 defending (I know he's already got a periapt, but you can find a way) and a Monk's Belt. On total defense, he ends up with 94 against one opponent. A measely 93 vs. everybody else.
aelryinth
05-28-05, 04:41 PM On a simpler note.

The standard Full Plate +5, Shield +5, PRotection/Nat Armor +5, and whatever Dex bonus you eke out are standard, and can get you to 40ish.

Simply make/buy an item of +AC using a different bonus if you want more AC. Luck, Sacred, Profane, Competence, Insight are all available.

A no-armor person with high buffed stats of Int/Wis/Dex can easily get into the 50's and 60's.

And lastly, if your opponents have such crappy AC and/or like to Power Attack you, invest in the feat Elusive Target and Power Attack them with your extra TH bonus using Spring Attack.

Note that as soon as you hit level 21, your gold starts going up REALLY fast, and a ring of +5 AC deflection, Sacred, Luck and Insight at 200,000 gp or so becomes quite affordable and reasonable. Ditto for saves...you do NOT want to miss saves at Epic Levels.

===Aelryinth
DM Zoc
05-28-05, 04:52 PM Improved Combat Expertise. Increase your AC from 30 to 50 while simultaneously dropping your to-hit from +40 to +20 (you'll still probably hit, but now you won't get hit -- actually, in this case it moves you from 95% to hit and 95% to be hit to 50/50 both).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dragonseth 05-27-05, 04:08 PM	I am currently working on a little spinoff of D&D where we make teams of 4 level 20 guys and fight to the death in a pit and the winning team gets more xp and money. (Don't have time for full adventures.) Anyway, I was building my team and noticed I had attack bonuses in like the 40 range and ACs in the 30s. Maybe I bought too many manuals of gainful exercise or what, but I was baffled at the difference. I tried my hardest to get the ACs that high but failed. +5 armors, amulets, rings, natural armor whatever I couldn't manage to get it to a good number. Anyone know a good way to get it up high? :weep:
Steely Glint 05-27-05, 04:16 PM	Attack bonus just tends to increase faster than armor class. Its a lot easier to get a massive attack bonus at high levels than it is to get a massive armor class (as you've found out). Most of the methods for getting huge ACs (getting several stats to AC, polymorphing into creatures with a lot of natural armor, etc.) are pretty cheesy. Remember, the iterative attacks (-5/-10/-15) still may have trouble hitting a high AC. Power attack can also be used to burn off excess attack bonus in exchange for extra damage, and combat expertise will boost AC at the expense of attack bonus.
Inigo Carmine 05-27-05, 04:18 PM	Attack bonuses are supposed to outstrip AC at that level (I don't know about the flat attack bonus beating AC, but the first attack from a fighter should be almost a garunteed hit). High AC is there mostly to prevent iterative attacks and such. Miss chance is what rules the day at those levels. Get yourself a cloak of displacement (or whichever one forces a flat 50% chance to miss you) if you want to protect yourself from attacks.
Zherog 05-27-05, 04:21 PM	Halfling Monk: -- Wisdom 34 (18 start, 5 level increases, +5 Tome, +6 Periapt of Wisdom) = 12 bonus -- Dexterity 31 (18 start, +2 racial, +5 Tome, +6 gloves of dex) = 10 bonus -- Bracers of Armor +8 armor bonus -- Ring of Protection +5 deflection bonus -- Amulet of Natural Armor +5 natural armor bonus (needs to be stacked special on periapt of wisdom, so it'll cost more) -- Luck stone +1 luck -- Take the Saint template; grants Wisdom to AC as an insight bonus = 12 more. -- have a friendly mage cast shield - +4 shield bonus -- +1 size bonus Total = 10 (base) + 12 (Wisdom) + 10 (dex) + 8 (armor) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (natural armor) + 1 (luck) + 12 (insight) + 4 (shield) + 1 (size) = 68 And that's pretty weak. Go check out the Character Optimization board, and you'll find some ACs well over 100. edit: I forgot the size bonus
ashcat_lt 05-27-05, 04:21 PM	Zherog posted simultaneously with me, and I think did a better job, so nevermind.
tarkin 05-27-05, 04:24 PM	There are several reasons for this. One of them is that while your FIRST attack goes to 40, your last attack is only at 25. The basic rule of thumb is that 50% of all your full round attacks should miss. That obviously means that by the time hit 40th level, your first attack should be a certain hit. Secondly, by the time you hit 20th level, touch attacks and incorporeal touch attacks can be VERY common. As such, getting non-ac based defenses is very important. For this reason a lot of people decide to go for the cloak of displacment, a set 20% miss chance, or similar effects.
Sinon 05-27-05, 04:28 PM	Pre epic Best armor - +5 full plate (13) Heavy armor optimization (1) Deflection (5) Natural (5) Tower shield +5 (9) Max Dex (1) I get AC 44. Not the greatest when opponents have +40 to hit as you described. Maximum possible dex: 20 starting (e.g. elf) + 5 level adjustment + 5 inherent + 5 enhancement = dex 35 (bonus +12) +12 dex + 8 Bracers of armor + 5 deflection + 5 Natural +7 shield = AC 47 A bit better. But not much. At this level, with a situation where people's only goals are going to be maximizing to hit, damage, and AC, I'd look at things that provide cover and/or concealment, such as a cloak of displacement. A 50% miss chance doesn't care what your to-hit roll was. There maybe ways to get natural armor higher, but I think most those require you to have natural armor of some sort naturally. edit:Many people did this better and faster than I
Zherog 05-27-05, 04:34 PM	*There maybe ways to get natural armor higher, but I think most those require you to have natural armor of some sort naturally. Sure - use the stuff I posted previously; get an alter self ability, and change yourself from a Halfling into a Troglodyte. You'll lose the +1 size bonus in my list above, but you'll gain +6 more in Natural Armor, for an increase of +5, bringing the total to 73.
tarkin 05-27-05, 04:46 PM	And at the very least Sinon should have Mithral Full Plate, allowing a Dex of 3, not 1.
Zherog 05-27-05, 04:48 PM	Actually, I forgot the bonus monks get to Armor Class - add 4 more to my builds above. ;)
Sinon 05-27-05, 05:05 PM	Correct about the mithral. It would have to go to the tower shield as well; it has a max dex of 2 without the mithral. Like I said: better and faster. (It would have been nice to at least have gotten my under-whelming AC up before the better ones.)
ashcat_lt 05-28-05, 12:16 PM	Pre epic Best armor - +5 full plate (13) Heavy armor optimization (1) Deflection (5) Natural (5*) Tower shield +5 (9) Max Dex (1) I get AC 44. Not the greatest when opponents have +40 to hit as you described. Mithral Mountain Plate +5 (RoS) is actually better. Armor Bonus becomes 15, Max Dex 2, AC=47. Also if it were a dwarf deepwarden you could apply Con to AC rather than Dex, which is more useful for an armored "tank" style build(because it also gives you hit points). There are ongoing debates as to whether or not the max dex of the armor applies to this Con bonus, but if not, you could say Con=18+2 level increase(save some for strength!)+5inherent(manual)+6amulet of health=31(+10), which gives us AC55. Need to roll a 15 to hit. Then give him a dusty rose prism ioun stone for +1 insight bonus to AC. Make sure the tower shield is animated, and give him a defending greataxe +5, this gives us AC 61, which means only a 20 will hit. If you've got the cash left (i haven't tallied it, but those manuals alone are pretty pricey) make sure the armor has heavy fortification, spell resistance, and as many different energy resistances as you can afford. Oh yeah, and ghost touch, please. And yeah, get the major cloak of displacement and make sure none of your battles last more than 15 rounds.
ashcat_lt 05-28-05, 12:32 PM	You could make Zherog's halfling saint monk into a jemlaine and get another +2 Dex bonus (racial +6 to dex), +6 Wis bonus (racial +6 Wis, counted twice), +1 for size = 81 (with the +4 for monk AC bonus that he left out of his original post) Course it wouldn't actually threaten an area and wouldn't do a whole lot of damage (racial Str-8), but nobody'd never hit the little bugger.
ashcat_lt 05-28-05, 01:04 PM	Then give him a dusty rose prism ioun stone for +1 insight bonus to AC. Make sure the tower shield is animated, and give him a defending greataxe +5, this gives us AC 61, which means only a 20 will hit. While you're at it, stick some +5 defending spikes on the tower shield, that'll give you AC66. Give the jemlaine monk Dodge and at least 5 ranks in Tumble. Also an Amulet of Natural Weapons + 5 defending (I know he's already got a periapt, but you can find a way) and a Monk's Belt. On total defense, he ends up with 94 against one opponent. A measely 93 vs. everybody else.
aelryinth 05-28-05, 04:41 PM	On a simpler note. The standard Full Plate +5, Shield +5, PRotection/Nat Armor +5, and whatever Dex bonus you eke out are standard, and can get you to 40ish. Simply make/buy an item of +AC using a different bonus if you want more AC. Luck, Sacred, Profane, Competence, Insight are all available. A no-armor person with high buffed stats of Int/Wis/Dex can easily get into the 50's and 60's. And lastly, if your opponents have such crappy AC and/or like to Power Attack you, invest in the feat Elusive Target and Power Attack them with your extra TH bonus using Spring Attack. Note that as soon as you hit level 21, your gold starts going up REALLY fast, and a ring of +5 AC deflection, Sacred, Luck and Insight at 200,000 gp or so becomes quite affordable and reasonable. Ditto for saves...you do NOT want to miss saves at Epic Levels. ===Aelryinth
DM Zoc 05-28-05, 04:52 PM	Improved Combat Expertise. Increase your AC from 30 to 50 while simultaneously dropping your to-hit from +40 to +20 (you'll still probably hit, but now you won't get hit -- actually, in this case it moves you from 95% to hit and 95% to be hit to 50/50 both).