AC to high ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

AC to high ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chathsolen
05-19-05, 09:11 AM I wanted to get your opinion on something.

Is an AC of 25 to high for a level 4 character ?
babysamurai
05-19-05, 09:19 AM I wanted to get your opinion on something.

Is an AC of 25 to high for a level 4 character ?

Yes.
PrinceAzar
05-19-05, 09:24 AM yes
Enaloindir
05-19-05, 09:29 AM It's a high AC, yes, but it's not like it's really hard to obtain:

Human Fighter, 4th level: +8 (Plate mail), +1 (Dex), +1 (Dodge), +3 (+1 heavy shield), +2 (Combat Expertise).
That's AC 25 right there. Make him a halfling or gnome, and the AC goes up again...

Of course, the character has invested about half of his wealth in protective items, so he's bound to be "suffering" in other areas.

Enaloindir
Chathsolen
05-19-05, 09:36 AM wow fast replies.

well his AC is based of the Class Defense bonus in UA with a +6 dex modifier and a +2 natural armor.

I know it upsets the DM so I'm trying to keep it as low as I can by not wanting any items that gives bonus to AC.

but he did have it worked so if I'm flat-footed I don't gain the Class Defense.
jokotoko
05-19-05, 09:53 AM 25 AC is high...but not that high at 4th level...take a human wizard

alter self (troglodyte), +6 natural armor
shield spell, +4 shield bonus
mage armor, +4 armor bonus
dexterity of 12, +1 dex bonus
base ac of 10

for a total of 10+6+4+4+1=25

And we haven't even touched the deflection bonuses from things like protection from X...
babysamurai
05-19-05, 09:56 AM wow fast replies.

well his AC is based of the Class Defense bonus in UA with a +6 dex modifier and a +2 natural armor.

I know it upsets the DM so I'm trying to keep it as low as I can by not wanting any items that gives bonus to AC.

but he did have it worked so if I'm flat-footed I don't gain the Class Defense.

Cool, how did your character get such a high Dex at such a low level?

What race/class is he/she?
Chathsolen
05-19-05, 10:00 AM Half-Vampire/Drow
Dalthbar
05-19-05, 10:04 AM Perhaps the problem isn't the AC...?
Thelon Fairblade
05-19-05, 10:12 AM Okay, that's the kind of detail that should be in your intial post. A Half-Vampire/Drow (nice LA!) using Class Defense Bonus from Unearthed Arcana is a far cry from the "core rules" assumption that was made by the previous posters.

AC 25 is a little bit of a stretch for a human fighter of 4th level, but it has been demonstrated for you.
Human Fighter, 4th level: +8 (Plate mail), +1 (Dex), +1 (Dodge), +3 (+1 heavy shield), +2 (Combat Expertise).
I would trade out the feat and INT requirement (Combat Expertise), and put another 1000 gold into a +1 enchantment on full plate.

Plus, in the mage example, there is also buffing to consider. A Potion of Shield replaces the +1 heavy shield and provides 4 AC instead of 3. A Potion or spell of Barkskin grants +2 Natural Armor, which stacks with everything.

Another option is an elven monk with 20 dex and 18 wis (19 AC), who then multis into wizard or sorc and gains the mage armor and shield and natural armor benefits...
Keenath
05-19-05, 10:13 AM That's what I'm thinking. If you have a template and you're drow, high AC is hardly the biggest problem going on there. ;)
LiquidDarkness
05-19-05, 10:17 AM A level 1 Svirfnebin (DeepGnome) Monk with an 18 in dex, and wis (making them 20 with the racial modifier), plus having the Dodge feat would have a 25ac against a single opponent and 24 against everything else :devil:
carnivore
05-19-05, 10:17 AM how about this:

Gnome
monk 2/ sorceror 2
18 dex
18 wis

10 base
+4 wis
+4 dex
+1 size bonus
+1 dodge
+4 shield spell
+4 mage armor
........
AC 28(32 vs Giants)at 4th level

i dont think AC 25 is too high at all, it doesnt even consider other magic items you can get

:D
LiquidDarkness
05-19-05, 10:22 AM Svirfneblins don't get +4ac vs giants. It is replaced by +4ac against everything. ;)
karthos
05-19-05, 10:27 AM Your AC is fine because you are not a 4th level character. A drow has an LA of +2 and half-vampire is a +3 or 4? Add that to your fighter levels and you are actually 9th or 10th level. AC 25 is actually kinda poor at that level.

If your DM didn't take into account the LA for your race and templates that is his mistake and he has no one to blame but himself.
MasterOfPsychic
05-19-05, 10:27 AM Min-maxing makes it easy gaining AC...
Keenath
05-19-05, 10:38 AM Well, and the class bonus to defense is always going to make AC come out to the high side, particularly for super-dex characters. That's because, in the normal game, the best armors have a total bonus of +8 or +9 -- that is, if you get the best armor you can for your Dex bonus, you're at 18 or 19 before applying anything else. Mithril increases that, as do shields and magic.

For a person with a normal Dex score, around 14, that works pretty well -- if they want their full Dex bonus to AC, they'll end up in appropriate armor, and their final AC is about the same as if you use the Class bonus.

But a class bonus is armor-free, so characters with very high dexterity -- 18 or more -- will tend to get much better AC than they could ever get with the armor system. Conversely, characters with low Dex tend to get the shaft in this system. Where your 8 Dex cleric would normally turn himself into a metal box (full plate+tower shield), the class bonus system means he's stuck with his +4 or whatever.

Upshot: It's not a problem, and it's not broken, it's just a natural consequence of the system. The class bonus to AC definitely puts a lot more emphasis on high dexterity scores. If you use that system, expect to spot a lot more people taking weapon finesse!

Coincidentally, this system works very well for other D20s like Star Wars or Modern because combat is usually with guns or other ranged weapons, so a high Dex (as compared to Str) is a benefit already. It's just armor- and melee- heavy genres that become strange.
Chathsolen
05-19-05, 11:09 AM Well I plan on getting weapon finesse when I take a level in Swashbuckler next level and I'm already an elven thin blade with Improved Weapon Familiarity.

and the half-vampire gives me a +2 LA and +2 from Drow which makes me a +4
q'afuu
05-19-05, 11:18 AM +1 class level makes 5. ;) Isn't the class defense rule from UA based on actual class levels, rather than ECL?
karthos
05-19-05, 11:28 AM Ok, so do you have any class levels then or just the Level Adjustment?
Chathsolen
05-19-05, 12:34 PM yes i have class level 4th right now. and yeah the Defense Bonus in UA is based on class not ecl from what i understand
karthos
05-19-05, 12:46 PM What classes do you have levels in?

Whatever they may be you are still considered to be an 8th level character then, 4 levels of classes and a +4 LA. An AC of 25 is perfectly acceptable for a character of that level.
q'afuu
05-19-05, 12:51 PM yes i have class level 4th right now. and yeah the Defense Bonus in UA is based on class not ecl from what i understand From what I understand, you have no actual class levels, just a race with a level adjustment. This has two consequences:
1) you don't get a Defense bonus (yet).
2) you still have a racial HD (1d8 for being a drow, presumably, unless the half-vamp template changes that) which, added to your total LA gives you an ECL of 5, not 4. Once you acquire a class level, that racial HD will get swapped out for whatever it is you get from that class (and you'll still be ECL 5).
Dungeon Master
05-19-05, 01:02 PM don't you have to have at least one class level? Or is that just regarding templates?
q'afuu
05-19-05, 01:11 PM That used to be the case but with monstrous progressions now being an option, that's no longer true. Now you simply need at least one HD, either from class or race. Templates don't give HD, and they need to be added to something anyway.
Dungeon Master
05-19-05, 01:18 PM So does this guy have any class levels or is he simply an ECL 4?
Salla
05-19-05, 02:56 PM So does this guy have any class levels or is he simply an ECL 4?

In one of the posts, he said he was 'class level 4', which if he's using the correct terms, means his Effective Character Level is at least 8; and a 25 AC at 8th level is actually kinda wimpy.
Chathsolen
05-19-05, 07:05 PM yeah, i have 4 class levels 2 in Fighter and 2 in Scout. i don't have to do any level buy offs because others in our group are +3, +4 LA also.

thanx for the replies and answers :)
Nolgoth
05-19-05, 07:23 PM You might be at a comparable level with the rest of your party, but you all still need to take into account your LA so that you face appropriate challenges and earn XP at the right rate.
Dungeon Master
05-19-05, 07:45 PM In fact, your entire party is in danger of energy drain and enveration spells.
DragonsArt
05-19-05, 09:51 PM So, you're actually effectively an 8th character? Hmm.... a 25AC is pretty wimpy.. especially when using the Character Level AC bonus optional rule. It sounds like your DM isn't playing your effective character levels very well.... did he adjust the AC's of monsters, etc in accordance to the rule?

It sounds like you're using bits and pieces of rules...
babysamurai
05-20-05, 04:21 AM I happen to think a 25 AC is still rather high for an 8th level character. Maybe for a single class fighter, paladin, or cleric it might be appropriate, but then again you're using the super powerful defence bonus from UA, so I guess it's just fine.
Thelon Fairblade
05-20-05, 07:27 AM I happen to think a 25 AC is still rather high for an 8th level character. Maybe for a single class fighter, paladin, or cleric it might be appropriate, but then again you're using the super powerful defence bonus from UA, so I guess it's just fine.

+1 armor, +1 shield, +1 ring, +1 amulet, on top of 8 armor, 1 dex, 2 shield = 25 AC without even trying (6k gold investment)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chathsolen 05-19-05, 09:11 AM	I wanted to get your opinion on something. Is an AC of 25 to high for a level 4 character ?
babysamurai 05-19-05, 09:19 AM	I wanted to get your opinion on something. Is an AC of 25 to high for a level 4 character ? Yes.
PrinceAzar 05-19-05, 09:24 AM	yes
Enaloindir 05-19-05, 09:29 AM	It's a high AC, yes, but it's not like it's really hard to obtain: Human Fighter, 4th level: +8 (Plate mail), +1 (Dex), +1 (Dodge), +3 (+1 heavy shield), +2 (Combat Expertise). That's AC 25 right there. Make him a halfling or gnome, and the AC goes up again... Of course, the character has invested about half of his wealth in protective items, so he's bound to be "suffering" in other areas. Enaloindir
Chathsolen 05-19-05, 09:36 AM	wow fast replies. well his AC is based of the Class Defense bonus in UA with a +6 dex modifier and a +2 natural armor. I know it upsets the DM so I'm trying to keep it as low as I can by not wanting any items that gives bonus to AC. but he did have it worked so if I'm flat-footed I don't gain the Class Defense.
jokotoko 05-19-05, 09:53 AM	25 AC is high...but not that high at 4th level...take a human wizard alter self (troglodyte), +6 natural armor shield spell, +4 shield bonus mage armor, +4 armor bonus dexterity of 12, +1 dex bonus base ac of 10 for a total of 10+6+4+4+1=25 And we haven't even touched the deflection bonuses from things like protection from X...
babysamurai 05-19-05, 09:56 AM	wow fast replies. well his AC is based of the Class Defense bonus in UA with a +6 dex modifier and a +2 natural armor. I know it upsets the DM so I'm trying to keep it as low as I can by not wanting any items that gives bonus to AC. but he did have it worked so if I'm flat-footed I don't gain the Class Defense. Cool, how did your character get such a high Dex at such a low level? What race/class is he/she?
Chathsolen 05-19-05, 10:00 AM	Half-Vampire/Drow
Dalthbar 05-19-05, 10:04 AM	Perhaps the problem isn't the AC...?
Thelon Fairblade 05-19-05, 10:12 AM	Okay, that's the kind of detail that should be in your intial post. A Half-Vampire/Drow (nice LA!) using Class Defense Bonus from Unearthed Arcana is a far cry from the "core rules" assumption that was made by the previous posters. AC 25 is a little bit of a stretch for a human fighter of 4th level, but it has been demonstrated for you. Human Fighter, 4th level: +8 (Plate mail), +1 (Dex), +1 (Dodge), +3 (+1 heavy shield), +2 (Combat Expertise). I would trade out the feat and INT requirement (Combat Expertise), and put another 1000 gold into a +1 enchantment on full plate. Plus, in the mage example, there is also buffing to consider. A Potion of Shield replaces the +1 heavy shield and provides 4 AC instead of 3. A Potion or spell of Barkskin grants +2 Natural Armor, which stacks with everything. Another option is an elven monk with 20 dex and 18 wis (19 AC), who then multis into wizard or sorc and gains the mage armor and shield and natural armor benefits...
Keenath 05-19-05, 10:13 AM	That's what I'm thinking. If you have a template and you're drow, high AC is hardly the biggest problem going on there. ;)
LiquidDarkness 05-19-05, 10:17 AM	A level 1 Svirfnebin (DeepGnome) Monk with an 18 in dex, and wis (making them 20 with the racial modifier), plus having the Dodge feat would have a 25ac against a single opponent and 24 against everything else :devil:
carnivore 05-19-05, 10:17 AM	how about this: Gnome monk 2/ sorceror 2 18 dex 18 wis 10 base +4 wis +4 dex +1 size bonus +1 dodge +4 shield spell +4 mage armor ........ AC 28(32 vs Giants)at 4th level i dont think AC 25 is too high at all, it doesnt even consider other magic items you can get :D
LiquidDarkness 05-19-05, 10:22 AM	Svirfneblins don't get +4ac vs giants. It is replaced by +4ac against everything. ;)
karthos 05-19-05, 10:27 AM	Your AC is fine because you are not a 4th level character. A drow has an LA of +2 and half-vampire is a +3 or 4? Add that to your fighter levels and you are actually 9th or 10th level. AC 25 is actually kinda poor at that level. If your DM didn't take into account the LA for your race and templates that is his mistake and he has no one to blame but himself.
MasterOfPsychic 05-19-05, 10:27 AM	Min-maxing makes it easy gaining AC...
Keenath 05-19-05, 10:38 AM	Well, and the class bonus to defense is always going to make AC come out to the high side, particularly for super-dex characters. That's because, in the normal game, the best armors have a total bonus of +8 or +9 -- that is, if you get the best armor you can for your Dex bonus, you're at 18 or 19 before applying anything else. Mithril increases that, as do shields and magic. For a person with a normal Dex score, around 14, that works pretty well -- if they want their full Dex bonus to AC, they'll end up in appropriate armor, and their final AC is about the same as if you use the Class bonus. But a class bonus is armor-free, so characters with very high dexterity -- 18 or more -- will tend to get much better AC than they could ever get with the armor system. Conversely, characters with low Dex tend to get the shaft in this system. Where your 8 Dex cleric would normally turn himself into a metal box (full plate+tower shield), the class bonus system means he's stuck with his +4 or whatever. Upshot: It's not a problem, and it's not broken, it's just a natural consequence of the system. The class bonus to AC definitely puts a lot more emphasis on high dexterity scores. If you use that system, expect to spot a lot more people taking weapon finesse! Coincidentally, this system works very well for other D20s like Star Wars or Modern because combat is usually with guns or other ranged weapons, so a high Dex (as compared to Str) is a benefit already. It's just armor- and melee- heavy genres that become strange.
Chathsolen 05-19-05, 11:09 AM	Well I plan on getting weapon finesse when I take a level in Swashbuckler next level and I'm already an elven thin blade with Improved Weapon Familiarity. and the half-vampire gives me a +2 LA and +2 from Drow which makes me a +4
q'afuu 05-19-05, 11:18 AM	+1 class level makes 5. ;) Isn't the class defense rule from UA based on actual class levels, rather than ECL?
karthos 05-19-05, 11:28 AM	Ok, so do you have any class levels then or just the Level Adjustment?
Chathsolen 05-19-05, 12:34 PM	yes i have class level 4th right now. and yeah the Defense Bonus in UA is based on class not ecl from what i understand
karthos 05-19-05, 12:46 PM	What classes do you have levels in? Whatever they may be you are still considered to be an 8th level character then, 4 levels of classes and a +4 LA. An AC of 25 is perfectly acceptable for a character of that level.
q'afuu 05-19-05, 12:51 PM	yes i have class level 4th right now. and yeah the Defense Bonus in UA is based on class not ecl from what i understand From what I understand, you have no actual class levels, just a race with a level adjustment. This has two consequences: 1) you don't get a Defense bonus (yet). 2) you still have a racial HD (1d8 for being a drow, presumably, unless the half-vamp template changes that) which, added to your total LA gives you an ECL of 5, not 4. Once you acquire a class level, that racial HD will get swapped out for whatever it is you get from that class (and you'll still be ECL 5).
Dungeon Master 05-19-05, 01:02 PM	don't you have to have at least one class level? Or is that just regarding templates?
q'afuu 05-19-05, 01:11 PM	That used to be the case but with monstrous progressions now being an option, that's no longer true. Now you simply need at least one HD, either from class or race. Templates don't give HD, and they need to be added to something anyway.
Dungeon Master 05-19-05, 01:18 PM	So does this guy have any class levels or is he simply an ECL 4?
Salla 05-19-05, 02:56 PM	So does this guy have any class levels or is he simply an ECL 4? In one of the posts, he said he was 'class level 4', which if he's using the correct terms, means his Effective Character Level is at least 8; and a 25 AC at 8th level is actually kinda wimpy.
Chathsolen 05-19-05, 07:05 PM	yeah, i have 4 class levels 2 in Fighter and 2 in Scout. i don't have to do any level buy offs because others in our group are +3, +4 LA also. thanx for the replies and answers :)
Nolgoth 05-19-05, 07:23 PM	You might be at a comparable level with the rest of your party, but you all still need to take into account your LA so that you face appropriate challenges and earn XP at the right rate.
Dungeon Master 05-19-05, 07:45 PM	In fact, your entire party is in danger of energy drain and enveration spells.
DragonsArt 05-19-05, 09:51 PM	So, you're actually effectively an 8th character? Hmm.... a 25AC is pretty wimpy.. especially when using the Character Level AC bonus optional rule. It sounds like your DM isn't playing your effective character levels very well.... did he adjust the AC's of monsters, etc in accordance to the rule? It sounds like you're using bits and pieces of rules...
babysamurai 05-20-05, 04:21 AM	I happen to think a 25 AC is still rather high for an 8th level character. Maybe for a single class fighter, paladin, or cleric it might be appropriate, but then again you're using the super powerful defence bonus from UA, so I guess it's just fine.
Thelon Fairblade 05-20-05, 07:27 AM	I happen to think a 25 AC is still rather high for an 8th level character. Maybe for a single class fighter, paladin, or cleric it might be appropriate, but then again you're using the super powerful defence bonus from UA, so I guess it's just fine. +1 armor, +1 shield, +1 ring, +1 amulet, on top of 8 armor, 1 dex, 2 shield = 25 AC without even trying (6k gold investment)