Achilles [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Achilles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 08:43 AM I just watched that movie again for the umpteenth time, and something has been nagging at me about it.

In the PHB, the only one handed spear is the short spear. However, in several scenes from the movie (I know, this probably isn't historically acurate, as it is a movie, and all) there are a variety of people fighting with the spear and sheild combo. Only, those spears they are using are anything BUT short!!

Another fine example would be 300. Of course, that movie, while highly entertaining, probably has very little to do with historical accuracy, as far as combat styles of the time. BUT, if you look around at museums and several hundred web sites on the net, you can find tons and tons of paintings, vases, and other artwork showing armies of Greeks running around with (what appear to me, anyway) longspears in one hand, and a shield in the other.

So, lets speculate that they did indeed fight that way back then.

With that in mind, you can't do it in DnD. You can use a short spear and shield, of course, but some of the pictures from the time period show soldiers with spears twice as long as they are tall, and using a full size shield. Just for the record, I say "full size shield" because they were much bigger than a buckler in game terms.

With all of this in mind, there are two paths that I see that can be taken to achieve this combat style. One, make up a game mechanic that reflects this ability. Perhaps a feat that allows one to wield a spear or longspear one handed. Or, an (exotic?) weapon that reflects the same. Another game mechanic would be a class feature that allows this, or perhaps even an alternate class feature, that can be taken by more than one class. Or rather, an alternate class feature for each class that would be interested in this. One for the Fighter, one for the Barbarian, one for the Warblade, etc., etc. And, last but not least, perhaps a magic item that accomplishes this.

The other path would be to just wing it.
DM "you want to play a character like Achilles, huh?"
Player "yeah, but with the rules, you can't use a long spear with a shield, though."
DM (feeling magnanimous) "Well, you can. You had... special training... yeah..."

How would you do this? I am not too serious about this, but I might actually have a game going soon, and one of the players was talking about Troy quite a bit. I can only guess that he is going to ask about this, because it was his questions about the spear and shield use that prompted me to check into this.

So, any ideas you guys have would be appreciated. Something to consider, I don't think any of the players have any idea what the word 'optimization' really can mean in DnD (thank god), so no one is trying to break a character here. It would purely be for the flavor. However, I don't think they will appreciate any negative modifiers to doing combat this way. Unless, of course, they are something like two-weapon fighting, where you can improve the combat form so that the negatives are next to nothing eventually.

In other words, I can probably get away with imposing penalties as long as they have the option (feats, or giving up other class features, or the like) to reduce those negatives.
InkBlot
12-04-07, 09:55 AM As a one-handed martial weapon the spear would have a better range increment and critical than a trident and the same base damage. I'd say just use the same stats as a trident and call it a pilum.

A one-handed longspear is balanced as a martial weapon, I think. It's odd for a one-handed weapon to have reach, and such oddities are normally reserved for exotic weapons, but I think the numbers are balanced.

So if your player asks, then just let him have the one-handed longspear if he already has martial weapon proficiency. If he wants to be able to throw it, have him use the javelin, shortspear, or pilum (trident).
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 10:11 AM Really? The longspear as a one handed martial weapon is OK?

Just out of curiousity, how did you come to this conclusion? I would imagine you compared it to other one handed weapons, but what was the criteria you used?

OK, so I could just take the Longspear stats, add on the range increment of the the javalin or shortspear, and call it a Pilum? I think this is what you are suggesting, anyway.

On second thought, I see what you mean. In all ways it is a Longspear, with the range increment of the Trident, and it can be used one handed. Right?
Nadaka
12-04-07, 10:25 AM This is why it was a bad idea to change the lance from 3e to 3.5.
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 10:29 AM This is why it was a bad idea to change the lance from 3e to 3.5.

What changes were made? I am not familiar with the 3.0 version, as I have never cracked a 3.0 PHB.
Igfig
12-04-07, 10:37 AM As big as ancient Greek spears were, I don't think you can consider them to have reach, since they were often thrown. I'd say that the trident's stats are the best way to represent one.

Don't call it a pilum, though, if only because
1. pila are Roman, not Greek
B. pila are only useful for throwing, as they break after one use
III. pila have already been statted in Dragon #331.

Incidentally, since in the Book Achilles' spear was so big that only he could use it in battle, and few others could even lift it, I often imagine him having the Monkey Grip feat.
InkBlot
12-04-07, 10:41 AM Really? The longspear as a one handed martial weapon is OK?

Just out of curiousity, how did you come to this conclusion? I would imagine you compared it to other one handed weapons, but what was the criteria you used?

OK, so I could just take the Longspear stats, add on the range increment of the the javalin or shortspear, and call it a Pilum? I think this is what you are suggesting, anyway.

On second thought, I see what you mean. In all ways it is a Longspear, with the range increment of the Trident, and it can be used one handed. Right?

No, that's not what I was saying. I said it would be a good idea to take the trident stats and call it a pilum.

I made a mistake in my estimation of the longspear as a one-handed martial weapon. I completely missed that the longspear has a x3 crit. My mistake. If it didn't have an x3 crit, then I think it might be OK as a one handed martial weapon.

What do you want from a Troy style spear? Do you think it should have reach? If you don't need it to have reach, then just use the stats of the trident and say it looks like a big spear.
mato_hibiki
12-04-07, 10:51 AM ... Uh... Large short spear and monkey grip?

... I'm just sayin'...
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 10:54 AM Trident stats actually look pretty good.

I don't know that the greek spears actually had reach, either. They seemed to be doing the 'lunge' feat I indicated earlier. (Still can't find it or remember the name!!) However, they are awfully long. I guess it is a toss up; are they long enough that they have reach, or aren't they?

Bah, I will just use the regular spear. If he wants reach with it, he will have to take the feat that allows it. I will just make it one handed, and call it good.
RobbyPants
12-04-07, 12:00 PM ... Uh... Large short spear and monkey grip?

... I'm just sayin'...
You could if you really wanted a bigger spear in one hand. Mechanically, it's a terrible idea though. Taking a -2 penalty to hit for an average increase in damage of one point is hardly worth the cost of a feat. You could take the Power Attack feat and gain +2 damage for that same -2 penalty to hit and not have to take it all the time.

But yes, this would technically let you use a spear-sized weapon in one hand.

Trident stats actually look pretty good.

This is probably the best route. It works mechanically, and you don't have to change anything.

Although, I wouldn't worry too much about the damage output of a shortspear vs. a spear or trident. Remember, most of the time Achilles was eviscerating soliders, he was using a short sword (same damage as a short spear) ;)
BENEVOLENT_DM
12-04-07, 12:04 PM Long spear with Monkey grip. The Greek Tactic of fighting with spears relied on close formation. Once the enemy came in close the front rank would drop the long spears and use their swords. These were not used as thrown weapons. I don't think that there are any rules that give advantages for fighting in Phalanx formation, so to simulate the way it was used you would have to make some.

Do not name it after a Roman weapon that was more of a heavy javelin.
wrecan
12-04-07, 12:19 PM Don't bother with monkey grip. A large shortspear does 1d8 damage and inflicts a -2 to hit. A trident is 1 lb. lighter and gives you half the range increment but there is no hit penalty and it's a martial rather than simple weapon.

You might rule the Large shortspear should give you a reach of 10', as a Large melee weapon. So that's the biggest benefit over a trident. You now have a one-handed reach weapon in exchange for a -2 to hit penalty. Of course, this really opens you up to abuse, with people wielding Large sized spiked chains...
RobbyPants
12-04-07, 12:32 PM Long spear with Monkey grip.
That would still be a two-handed weapon. All it would do is increase the damage at the expense of -2 to hit. Monkey Grip doesn't let you use a two-handed weapon one-handed, but rather, allows you to use a weapon one size category larger.
Nadaka
12-04-07, 01:19 PM What changes were made? I am not familiar with the 3.0 version, as I have never cracked a 3.0 PHB.

in 3.0 the lance was a medium weapon with reach. It wasn't limited to use only on horseback.
InkBlot
12-04-07, 03:44 PM You might rule the Large shortspear should give you a reach of 10', as a Large melee weapon.
Using a larger weapon doesn't give you reach. Reach is based on your character's size.

Think about it; a character wielding an overly long improperly balanced weapon would need to hold it closer to his body, and closer to vertical, in order to keep his balance when fighting with it. This would negate the benefit of the length of the weapon.
Suspect_Unusual
12-04-07, 04:14 PM That would still be a two-handed weapon. All it would do is increase the damage at the expense of -2 to hit. Monkey Grip doesn't let you use a two-handed weapon one-handed, but rather, allows you to use a weapon one size category larger.

:cookie: for mentioning the actual rules. :)
Tony Vargas
12-04-07, 06:19 PM In the PHB, the only one handed spear is the short spear. However, in several scenes from the movie there are a variety of people fighting with the spear and sheild combo. Only, those spears they are using are anything BUT short!!

Another fine example would be 300. Of course, that movie, while highly entertaining, probably has very little to do with historical accuracy, as far as combat styles of the time. 300 was a faithfull adaptation of a comic, that chose art of historical accuracy, for the most part. However, one scene - the initial battle where the spartans form a phalanx and push against thier enemies (and, at least one uses his spear to stab /past/ the ally in front of him - D&D reach), /is/ conceptually accurate. Phalanxes fought 'in the press' and spears were long enough to strike from the second rank.

BUT, if you look around at museums and several hundred web sites on the net, you can find tons and tons of paintings, vases, and other artwork showing armies of Greeks running around with (what appear to me, anyway) longspears in one hand, and a shield in the other.Like movies made today, art objects from antiquity were not always faithful to what actually happened in battle. But, some historians do agree that the greek phalanx held thier spears 'overhand' - as is generally depicted in contemporaneous art - with the second (or even third) rank able to attack as well as the first.

With all of this in mind, there are two paths that I see that can be taken to achieve this combat style. One, make up a game mechanic that reflects this ability. Perhaps a feat that allows one to wield a spear or longspear one handed. Or, an (exotic?) weapon that reflects the same.Since it has been such a common tactic in history, I would suggest making the mechanic one that's easily accessible. For instance, the spear & longspear or two-handed simple weapons. Simply allow them to be used one-handed with martial proficiency, much like a bastard sword is two-handed with martial proficiency, but one-handed with exotic. If you want to 'balance' that a bit, you can put a minimum STR requirement on them, or reduce thier crit multiplier to match the trident.

Another game mechanic would be a class feature that allows this, or perhaps even an alternate class feature, that can be taken by more than one class. Class features are pretty restrictive. Historicaly, whole armies were armed with spears and shields. Thus, even a low-level warrior should be able to access the option.

In 3.0, you actually /could/ use a long spear (not a longspear) one-handed, simply by choosing the lance, which did not have the only-when-mounted restriction that the 3.5 version does. You couldn't set it to recieve a charge, but it was one-handed and gave you reach.
Grizzled Gryphon
12-04-07, 09:06 PM Since it has been such a common tactic in history, I would suggest making the mechanic one that's easily accessible. For instance, the spear & longspear or two-handed simple weapons. Simply allow them to be used one-handed with martial proficiency, much like a bastard sword is two-handed with martial proficiency, but one-handed with exotic.

:uh-huh: Why didn't this come to mind earlier? Oh, becuase it would be the simplest solution, of course!! Pure genius!! It is amazing that the easist fix for most problems are usually the hardest ones to figure out. I don't know, maybe it is just me.

But THIS is exactly what I will rule. Thanks a ton, everyone!!!

Hmm, before I make that ruling, does anyone else see any problems with this idea?
ObscureInfo
12-05-07, 11:49 AM Cost you a Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Nope. I don't see the problem.

On the OP's original topic, I always thought they were using shortspears in those movies. I thought the spear was the "Dragonslayer" two-handed variety and the longspear was the "Braveheart" spears. (to use movie examples)

But in Troy and in any other ancient Greek/Roman movies, I always assumed that they were using shortspears. The spears were not twice the size of the men, they were just under their height, weren't they? 4-5 ft long? This goes back to weapon categories. Much like the longsword, bastard, and greatsword debate. When is a shortspear a spear and when is a spear a longspear? The second seems easier, as the longspear has reach. But the distinction is greyer between the shortspear and the spear. So treat the spear like a bastard and allow one to use it one handed with a EWP? Done.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 08:43 AM	I just watched that movie again for the umpteenth time, and something has been nagging at me about it. In the PHB, the only one handed spear is the short spear. However, in several scenes from the movie (I know, this probably isn't historically acurate, as it is a movie, and all) there are a variety of people fighting with the spear and sheild combo. Only, those spears they are using are anything BUT short!! Another fine example would be 300. Of course, that movie, while highly entertaining, probably has very little to do with historical accuracy, as far as combat styles of the time. BUT, if you look around at museums and several hundred web sites on the net, you can find tons and tons of paintings, vases, and other artwork showing armies of Greeks running around with (what appear to me, anyway) longspears in one hand, and a shield in the other. So, lets speculate that they did indeed fight that way back then. With that in mind, you can't do it in DnD. You can use a short spear and shield, of course, but some of the pictures from the time period show soldiers with spears twice as long as they are tall, and using a full size shield. Just for the record, I say "full size shield" because they were much bigger than a buckler in game terms. With all of this in mind, there are two paths that I see that can be taken to achieve this combat style. One, make up a game mechanic that reflects this ability. Perhaps a feat that allows one to wield a spear or longspear one handed. Or, an (exotic?) weapon that reflects the same. Another game mechanic would be a class feature that allows this, or perhaps even an alternate class feature, that can be taken by more than one class. Or rather, an alternate class feature for each class that would be interested in this. One for the Fighter, one for the Barbarian, one for the Warblade, etc., etc. And, last but not least, perhaps a magic item that accomplishes this. The other path would be to just wing it. DM "you want to play a character like Achilles, huh?" Player "yeah, but with the rules, you can't use a long spear with a shield, though." DM (feeling magnanimous) "Well, you can. You had... special training... yeah..." How would you do this? I am not too serious about this, but I might actually have a game going soon, and one of the players was talking about Troy quite a bit. I can only guess that he is going to ask about this, because it was his questions about the spear and shield use that prompted me to check into this. So, any ideas you guys have would be appreciated. Something to consider, I don't think any of the players have any idea what the word 'optimization' really can mean in DnD (thank god), so no one is trying to break a character here. It would purely be for the flavor. However, I don't think they will appreciate any negative modifiers to doing combat this way. Unless, of course, they are something like two-weapon fighting, where you can improve the combat form so that the negatives are next to nothing eventually. In other words, I can probably get away with imposing penalties as long as they have the option (feats, or giving up other class features, or the like) to reduce those negatives.
InkBlot 12-04-07, 09:55 AM	As a one-handed martial weapon the spear would have a better range increment and critical than a trident and the same base damage. I'd say just use the same stats as a trident and call it a pilum. A one-handed longspear is balanced as a martial weapon, I think. It's odd for a one-handed weapon to have reach, and such oddities are normally reserved for exotic weapons, but I think the numbers are balanced. So if your player asks, then just let him have the one-handed longspear if he already has martial weapon proficiency. If he wants to be able to throw it, have him use the javelin, shortspear, or pilum (trident).
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 10:11 AM	Really? The longspear as a one handed martial weapon is OK? Just out of curiousity, how did you come to this conclusion? I would imagine you compared it to other one handed weapons, but what was the criteria you used? OK, so I could just take the Longspear stats, add on the range increment of the the javalin or shortspear, and call it a Pilum? I think this is what you are suggesting, anyway. On second thought, I see what you mean. In all ways it is a Longspear, with the range increment of the Trident, and it can be used one handed. Right?
Nadaka 12-04-07, 10:25 AM	This is why it was a bad idea to change the lance from 3e to 3.5.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 10:29 AM	This is why it was a bad idea to change the lance from 3e to 3.5. What changes were made? I am not familiar with the 3.0 version, as I have never cracked a 3.0 PHB.
Igfig 12-04-07, 10:37 AM	As big as ancient Greek spears were, I don't think you can consider them to have reach, since they were often thrown. I'd say that the trident's stats are the best way to represent one. Don't call it a pilum, though, if only because 1. pila are Roman, not Greek B. pila are only useful for throwing, as they break after one use III. pila have already been statted in Dragon #331. Incidentally, since in the Book Achilles' spear was so big that only he could use it in battle, and few others could even lift it, I often imagine him having the Monkey Grip feat.
InkBlot 12-04-07, 10:41 AM	Really? The longspear as a one handed martial weapon is OK? Just out of curiousity, how did you come to this conclusion? I would imagine you compared it to other one handed weapons, but what was the criteria you used? OK, so I could just take the Longspear stats, add on the range increment of the the javalin or shortspear, and call it a Pilum? I think this is what you are suggesting, anyway. On second thought, I see what you mean. In all ways it is a Longspear, with the range increment of the Trident, and it can be used one handed. Right? No, that's not what I was saying. I said it would be a good idea to take the trident stats and call it a pilum. I made a mistake in my estimation of the longspear as a one-handed martial weapon. I completely missed that the longspear has a x3 crit. My mistake. If it didn't have an x3 crit, then I think it might be OK as a one handed martial weapon. What do you want from a Troy style spear? Do you think it should have reach? If you don't need it to have reach, then just use the stats of the trident and say it looks like a big spear.
mato_hibiki 12-04-07, 10:51 AM	... Uh... Large short spear and monkey grip? ... I'm just sayin'...
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 10:54 AM	Trident stats actually look pretty good. I don't know that the greek spears actually had reach, either. They seemed to be doing the 'lunge' feat I indicated earlier. (Still can't find it or remember the name!!) However, they are awfully long. I guess it is a toss up; are they long enough that they have reach, or aren't they? Bah, I will just use the regular spear. If he wants reach with it, he will have to take the feat that allows it. I will just make it one handed, and call it good.
RobbyPants 12-04-07, 12:00 PM	... Uh... Large short spear and monkey grip? ... I'm just sayin'... You could if you really wanted a bigger spear in one hand. Mechanically, it's a terrible idea though. Taking a -2 penalty to hit for an average increase in damage of one point is hardly worth the cost of a feat. You could take the Power Attack feat and gain +2 damage for that same -2 penalty to hit and not have to take it all the time. But yes, this would technically let you use a spear-sized weapon in one hand. Trident stats actually look pretty good. This is probably the best route. It works mechanically, and you don't have to change anything. Although, I wouldn't worry too much about the damage output of a shortspear vs. a spear or trident. Remember, most of the time Achilles was eviscerating soliders, he was using a short sword (same damage as a short spear) ;)
BENEVOLENT_DM 12-04-07, 12:04 PM	Long spear with Monkey grip. The Greek Tactic of fighting with spears relied on close formation. Once the enemy came in close the front rank would drop the long spears and use their swords. These were not used as thrown weapons. I don't think that there are any rules that give advantages for fighting in Phalanx formation, so to simulate the way it was used you would have to make some. Do not name it after a Roman weapon that was more of a heavy javelin.
wrecan 12-04-07, 12:19 PM	Don't bother with monkey grip. A large shortspear does 1d8 damage and inflicts a -2 to hit. A trident is 1 lb. lighter and gives you half the range increment but there is no hit penalty and it's a martial rather than simple weapon. You might rule the Large shortspear should give you a reach of 10', as a Large melee weapon. So that's the biggest benefit over a trident. You now have a one-handed reach weapon in exchange for a -2 to hit penalty. Of course, this really opens you up to abuse, with people wielding Large sized spiked chains...
RobbyPants 12-04-07, 12:32 PM	Long spear with Monkey grip. That would still be a two-handed weapon. All it would do is increase the damage at the expense of -2 to hit. Monkey Grip doesn't let you use a two-handed weapon one-handed, but rather, allows you to use a weapon one size category larger.
Nadaka 12-04-07, 01:19 PM	What changes were made? I am not familiar with the 3.0 version, as I have never cracked a 3.0 PHB. in 3.0 the lance was a medium weapon with reach. It wasn't limited to use only on horseback.
InkBlot 12-04-07, 03:44 PM	You might rule the Large shortspear should give you a reach of 10', as a Large melee weapon. Using a larger weapon doesn't give you reach. Reach is based on your character's size. Think about it; a character wielding an overly long improperly balanced weapon would need to hold it closer to his body, and closer to vertical, in order to keep his balance when fighting with it. This would negate the benefit of the length of the weapon.
Suspect_Unusual 12-04-07, 04:14 PM	That would still be a two-handed weapon. All it would do is increase the damage at the expense of -2 to hit. Monkey Grip doesn't let you use a two-handed weapon one-handed, but rather, allows you to use a weapon one size category larger. :cookie: for mentioning the actual rules. :)
Tony Vargas 12-04-07, 06:19 PM	In the PHB, the only one handed spear is the short spear. However, in several scenes from the movie there are a variety of people fighting with the spear and sheild combo. Only, those spears they are using are anything BUT short!! Another fine example would be 300. Of course, that movie, while highly entertaining, probably has very little to do with historical accuracy, as far as combat styles of the time. 300 was a faithfull adaptation of a comic, that chose art of historical accuracy, for the most part. However, one scene - the initial battle where the spartans form a phalanx and push against thier enemies (and, at least one uses his spear to stab /past/ the ally in front of him - D&D reach), /is/ conceptually accurate. Phalanxes fought 'in the press' and spears were long enough to strike from the second rank. BUT, if you look around at museums and several hundred web sites on the net, you can find tons and tons of paintings, vases, and other artwork showing armies of Greeks running around with (what appear to me, anyway) longspears in one hand, and a shield in the other.Like movies made today, art objects from antiquity were not always faithful to what actually happened in battle. But, some historians do agree that the greek phalanx held thier spears 'overhand' - as is generally depicted in contemporaneous art - with the second (or even third) rank able to attack as well as the first. With all of this in mind, there are two paths that I see that can be taken to achieve this combat style. One, make up a game mechanic that reflects this ability. Perhaps a feat that allows one to wield a spear or longspear one handed. Or, an (exotic?) weapon that reflects the same.Since it has been such a common tactic in history, I would suggest making the mechanic one that's easily accessible. For instance, the spear & longspear or two-handed simple weapons. Simply allow them to be used one-handed with martial proficiency, much like a bastard sword is two-handed with martial proficiency, but one-handed with exotic. If you want to 'balance' that a bit, you can put a minimum STR requirement on them, or reduce thier crit multiplier to match the trident. Another game mechanic would be a class feature that allows this, or perhaps even an alternate class feature, that can be taken by more than one class. Class features are pretty restrictive. Historicaly, whole armies were armed with spears and shields. Thus, even a low-level warrior should be able to access the option. In 3.0, you actually /could/ use a long spear (not a longspear) one-handed, simply by choosing the lance, which did not have the only-when-mounted restriction that the 3.5 version does. You couldn't set it to recieve a charge, but it was one-handed and gave you reach.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-04-07, 09:06 PM	Since it has been such a common tactic in history, I would suggest making the mechanic one that's easily accessible. For instance, the spear & longspear or two-handed simple weapons. Simply allow them to be used one-handed with martial proficiency, much like a bastard sword is two-handed with martial proficiency, but one-handed with exotic. :uh-huh: Why didn't this come to mind earlier? Oh, becuase it would be the simplest solution, of course!! Pure genius!! It is amazing that the easist fix for most problems are usually the hardest ones to figure out. I don't know, maybe it is just me. But THIS is exactly what I will rule. Thanks a ton, everyone!!! Hmm, before I make that ruling, does anyone else see any problems with this idea?
ObscureInfo 12-05-07, 11:49 AM	Cost you a Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Nope. I don't see the problem. On the OP's original topic, I always thought they were using shortspears in those movies. I thought the spear was the "Dragonslayer" two-handed variety and the longspear was the "Braveheart" spears. (to use movie examples) But in Troy and in any other ancient Greek/Roman movies, I always assumed that they were using shortspears. The spears were not twice the size of the men, they were just under their height, weren't they? 4-5 ft long? This goes back to weapon categories. Much like the longsword, bastard, and greatsword debate. When is a shortspear a spear and when is a spear a longspear? The second seems easier, as the longspear has reach. But the distinction is greyer between the shortspear and the spear. So treat the spear like a bastard and allow one to use it one handed with a EWP? Done.