Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RancorClaw 04-02-07, 08:03 AM	Can the Adamantine Breastplate (DMG 219) be enchanted like any other normal masterwork armor? I ask because it's listed in the Specific Armors, and it seems that those ones can't be enhanced beyond their stated specific abilities.
FrinkiacVII 04-02-07, 09:45 AM	That's the weird thing about that section, it lists several non-magical items that are simply made from exotic materials (like the Cold Iron Longsword, which is like 600GP or something). In the section on materials, I believe it states that anything made of mithril, adamantine, cold iron, etc can in fact be enchanted also. Why they chose to list some of that stuff in the "Named Special Items" sections of the armor and weapons entries is beyond me. You have to remember, it's all a matter of what YOUR DM (or YOU as DM) want it to be. As DM, I generally only run store-bought adventures (or those in Dungeon Magazine), and I can tell you that there are many examples of magical adamantine/mithral/darkwood armors/shields in those sources. In any event, the DM can invent any new magical stuff he or she wants to , just has to try to price them accordingly. That part about "must be used as-is, cannot be further enchanted" could be interpreted to mean "These weapons weren't priced using the normal pricing guidelines, because they have some special properties that go beyond the simple '+1 flaming burst' kind of stuff in here and add totally different abilities (e.g. Flametongue) which defy the pricing rules entirely, therefore, it would be impossible to compute the correct cost of further enhancements, so don't do that." If the DM WANTS to give somebody a Flametongue with a +2 enhancement bonus, he can do that. He'd be acting unilaterally and disobeying a rule as written in the DMG, but the CARDINAL rule of the DMG is "The DM is never wrong.", so it's ok.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-02-07, 11:32 AM	Umm, Flametongue is just a Flaming Burst sword with a command-word Scorching Ray on it (CL3rd to be exact), and each part has its own pricing formula/methods of comparison. Especially weapon/armor enhancement bonuses, which have their independent scaling method. Adding a +1 enhancement to a weapon that has +2 already is 10,000gp, no matter what wondrous properties (aside from Cold Iron, which states its exception). They don't rely on the underlying properties of the item. Adding wondrous effects like ability and skill bonuses can be tricky, but that is because they have layering rules and such. My case in point- staves. They are magic quarterstaves with spell-trigger abilities added onto them completely independently by their own formula. Making the underlying weapon +7 Holy doesn't make the 1-charge Mage Armor any different in price.
tarkin 04-02-07, 11:49 AM	What Mr. VIII said is right, but... 1. ignores the issue of pricing. PowerGamers usually price it ridiculously low. (Why, I will treat the schorcing Ray power as an add on -even though it clearly is NOT- ) 2. offers zero advice about when and where it is appropriate to do that. Often it is NOT appropriate to do it. And is totally irrelevant to the question. Unlike Scorching Ray, Adamantine is an material ADD ON. It is not a magic power, it does not affect the pricing of the magical abilities.. It really should not have been listed anywhere at all on the magic item chart. WoTC got Lazy. Instead there should have been a seperate chart saying something like this: D100 1-90: Normal material 91-95: Adamantine armor 95-100: Mithral Armor ------------- Adamantine Breastplate can be enchanted as normal. Same for Adamantine weapons Same goes for any other special metal (But Cold Iron does have special rules to make it more expensive) There is zero reason in the DMG or anywhere else whatsoever for any DM to ever not let people enchant it. It can be priced using the normal pricing rules.
PhaedrusXY 04-02-07, 11:52 AM	You can add further enhancements to even specific magical items. This is clarified in the Magic Item Compendium, but the DMG certainly doesn't prohibit it, and in fact gives rules on how to do it. However, as has already been pointed out, the Adamantine Breastplate is just that... a breastplate, made of adamantine. It is nothing special. They just listed it there so you didn't have to do "teh maths" to figure out the price, I guess.
Oliver D'Argent 04-02-07, 10:37 PM	There goes Tarkin trying to push the "you aren't able to further enhance specific items" fallacy again, when the rules clearly state: ADDING NEW ABILITIES A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword. If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5. As ClementWillowbreaker noted, a Flametongue is nothing more than a +1 Flaming Burst longsword with the ability to do a Scorching Ray once per day - it's all priced out if you bother to check, so there is nothing to stop someone from enhancing it further.
RavenDrake 04-02-07, 11:13 PM	There goes Tarkin trying to push the "you aren't able to further enhance specific items" fallacy again... Actually, I believe that tarkin has NEVER stated you CANNOT enhance specific items, merely that the idea that it's not balanced to treat all specific weapon priceing as merely being "a set premium added to the normal price of a weapon with the existing abilities". While some items, say Flametongue as mentioned, DO follow the exact pricing structure (for example having a SLA tacked onto an existing magic item, though I haven't done the specific math on that one) specific items with extreemly powerful or unique abilities (a la Holy Avenger or Nine Lives Stealer) could be unbalanced to be improved by that nature.
RancorClaw 04-03-07, 06:53 AM	I discovered a mistake on my part. I'd been adding the 150gp for the armor's masterwork component, when it turns out that it's already included in the Adamantine's cost. (Which made the specific Adamantine Breastplate appear to cost 150gp less than an Adamantine Breastplate made normally. This difference in price implied that there was something special or different about the specific version, such as an inability to enchant it.) Regarding the Flametongue, a normal +1 Flaming Burst Longsword would cost 18,315gp, vs the 20,715gp for the Flametongue. This implies that the cost to add a basic CL3 Scortching Ray 1/day bility to any weapon, is +2,400gp. Addition: However, I have a new question about armor with special-materials. Specifically, about Mythril, and its effect on armor catagories. I know that mythril armor is treated as one catagory for "the purposes of movement and limitations (such as a Barbarian's Fast Movement ability.) But is the armor still one catagory lighter, when it comes to armor proficiencies? Would a Rogue or a Bard (who are only proficient with Light armor) be able to use Mythril scale mail without incuring the armor check penalty to their attack rolls due to them not being proficient with medium armor, since it's now considered light armor because of its special material? A Barbarian's Fast Movement isn't slowed down from Myrthil full plate, but since normal full plate is heavy armor, would the barbarian take a penalty to his attack rolls because he's not proficient with heavy armors?
Oliver D'Argent 04-03-07, 07:45 AM	Actually, I believe that tarkin has NEVER stated you CANNOT enhance specific items, merely that the idea that it's not balanced to treat all specific weapon priceing as merely being "a set premium added to the normal price of a weapon with the existing abilities". While some items, say Flametongue as mentioned, DO follow the exact pricing structure (for example having a SLA tacked onto an existing magic item, though I haven't done the specific math on that one) specific items with extreemly powerful or unique abilities (a la Holy Avenger or Nine Lives Stealer) could be unbalanced to be improved by that nature. Then I shall restate it as the "you aren't able to further enhance specific items without jumping through hoops and making up enhancement bonus categories for added powers where none are needed" fallacy. This is an issue that has come up with Tarkin before. I do not believe that it would be unbalancing to further enhance the Nine Lives Stealer, since it is nothing more than a +2 longsword wth nine charges of a death effect - once those charges are used, it reverts to its basic enhancement. It is actually fairly simple to enhance further since the basic enhancement is clear (+2) and that cost can be subtracted from the total to give the extra cost of the deth effect charges.
RavenDrake 04-03-07, 10:02 AM	Then I shall restate it as the "you aren't able to further enhance specific items without jumping through hoops and making up enhancement bonus categories for added powers where none are needed" fallacy. This is an issue that has come up with Tarkin before. Which is fine, if you wish to play it that way. There are no firmly set rules for enhancing specific items so it's up to each DM to adjucate as necessary. However, I have a new question about armor with special-materials. Specifically, about Mythril, and its effect on armor catagories. I know that mythril armor is treated as one catagory for "the purposes of movement and limitations (such as a Barbarian's Fast Movement ability.) But is the armor still one catagory lighter, when it comes to armor proficiencies? Would a Rogue or a Bard (who are only proficient with Light armor) be able to use Mythril scale mail without incuring the armor check penalty to their attack rolls due to them not being proficient with medium armor, since it's now considered light armor because of its special material? A Barbarian's Fast Movement isn't slowed down from Myrthil full plate, but since normal full plate is heavy armor, would the barbarian take a penalty to his attack rolls because he's not proficient with heavy armors? As the FAQ says (and as has been more firmly clarified in the Magic Item Compendium) the intent for mithral was that it should basically count as one category lighter for ALL purposes, including Proficiency. The phrase "and other limitations" being an offhand means of confirming that. The description of mithral on page 284 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide is less precise than it could be in defining how it interacts with armor proficiency rules. The simplest answer— and the one that the Sage expects most players and DMs use— is that mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency. This isn’t exactly what the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says, but it’s a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it’s supported by a number of precedents, including the descriptions of various specific mithral armors described on page 220 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide and a variety of NPC stat blocks).
RancorClaw 04-03-07, 08:18 PM	As the FAQ says (and as has been more firmly clarified in the Magic Item Compendium) the intent for mithral was that it should basically count as one category lighter for ALL purposes, including Proficiency. The phrase "and other limitations" being an offhand means of confirming that. Cool, thanks. (Means my Rogue/Bard character didn't waste the money she already spent on the armor.)
Oliver D'Argent 04-03-07, 10:11 PM	Which is fine, if you wish to play it that way. There are no firmly set rules for enhancing specific items so it's up to each DM to adjucate as necessary. If Tarkin's method is acceptable to you and the other players in your group, that is your business. As far as I am concerned, the extra costs incurred in many of the specific items are more akin to the listed special abilities for armor that add a set monetary cost to the item, rather than those that have an enhancement equivalent. The verbage for both specific armor and specific weapons states: "usually are preconstructed with exactly the qualities described here." [emphasis mine]. Specific weapons and armor are simply "packages" and can be modified later if the character wishes to spend the money to do so.