Adamantine Crowbar & Manacles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adamantine Crowbar & Manacles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ManinBlaq
07-11-05, 01:12 PM We started a new adventure this past weekend -- and off the cuff, I decided that he (my character) should be 'oddly' prepared.

With that in mind - we had a hard time going forward and trying to determine Price and Benefit of creating Adamantine versions of standard tools.

Adamantine Crowbar: Well, since the crowbar can be used as a weapon -- we determined that the base cost would be 3002 gp. However, what sort of benefit would it give you? It seems that 3.5 changed the enhancement bonus (+2) that was inherent with Adamantine Weapons... is that correct? (Ada. Weapons are no longer +2?)

For spending 3000 gp over the base price -- I think an adamantine crowbar should give a +10 circumstance bonus.

Adamantine Manacles: Aside from one PrC that I'm aware of, manacles are not used as weapons ... so what would be a fair price for them? (1,500 gp .. 1/2 of the weapon price?).

And then what exactly would that give you? Would Adamantine Manacles (aside from being Masterwork) be more difficult to escape from -- thus have a higher Escape Artist DC? Obviously, the Strength DC to break them would be higher, but how would you compute that?
Bluebrush
07-11-05, 01:20 PM The benefit of 3.5 adamantine is that is bypasses certain creature's damage reduction.

Also, don't forget it ignores the hardness of most objects, making it very good for a sunderer and nigh-unsunderable itself.
Mad Mage
07-11-05, 01:26 PM The benefit of 3.5 adamantine is that is bypasses certain creature's damage reduction.

Also, don't forget it ignores the hardness of most objects, making it very good for a sunderer and nigh-unsunderable itself.

Yeah, that would likely make breaking open containers of sorts much easier.

Wouldn't a crowbar (if it's really a tool) be considered an improvised weapon? That is, unless Earth history places it originally as a weapon.
Enterik
07-11-05, 01:27 PM We started a new adventure this past weekend -- and off the cuff, I decided that he (my character) should be 'oddly' prepared.

With that in mind - we had a hard time going forward and trying to determine Price and Benefit of creating Adamantine versions of standard tools.

Adamantine Crowbar: Well, since the crowbar can be used as a weapon -- we determined that the base cost would be 3002 gp. However, what sort of benefit would it give you? It seems that 3.5 changed the enhancement bonus (+2) that was inherent with Adamantine Weapons... is that correct? (Ada. Weapons are no longer +2?)

For spending 3000 gp over the base price -- I think an adamantine crowbar should give a +10 circumstance bonus.

Adamantine Manacles: Aside from one PrC that I'm aware of, manacles are not used as weapons ... so what would be a fair price for them? (1,500 gp .. 1/2 of the weapon price?).

And then what exactly would that give you? Would Adamantine Manacles (aside from being Masterwork) be more difficult to escape from -- thus have a higher Escape Artist DC? Obviously, the Strength DC to break them would be higher, but how would you compute that?

Well there is another thread that is considering the very issue of determining the per pound price of adamantine, maybe you should look there.

My take, which may suit whomever you must please, is that it will weigh 33% more than the standard crowbar, so 6.67 lbs, the minimum material cost for 1 lb. of adamantine (by my calculations) is 100gp/lb for a 667gp crowbar. Now add twice that for crafting the item and you end up with 2001gp for an Adamantine crowbar...minimum.
Erple2
07-11-05, 03:04 PM Well there is another thread that is considering the very issue of determining the per pound price of adamantine, maybe you should look there.

My take, which may suit whomever you must please, is that it will weigh 33% more than the standard crowbar, so 6.67 lbs, the minimum material cost for 1 lb. of adamantine (by my calculations) is 100gp/lb for a 667gp crowbar. Now add twice that for crafting the item and you end up with 2001gp for an Adamantine crowbar...minimum.

I didn't find anywhere the rules stated the +33% weight increase from iron/steel. So, I'd say that the final cost is 500gp (for a 5 lb crowbar) *3 (for manufacturing costs - standard practice for making things) 1500 gp. I was thinking about adding additional cost for having to pay a master craftsman at making it, but the 3* material cost I thought was sufficient, and the base material cost is so high.

It's already a masterwork crowbar (+2 to "checks" related to it), but it's darned good at smashing things (bypassing hardness less than 20) or breaking things through sheer force (+2 to said task, above it's "masterwork" quality). Though, I don't know what else you'd use a crowbar for if not to use sheer force to break something, so maybe the "extra" +2 should just be "Since it's masterwork, and since you are taking advantage of the strength of adamantium, you receive a +2 Bonus and a +2 Material Bonus to breaking things with it").
Enterik
07-11-05, 04:01 PM I didn't find anywhere the rules stated the +33% weight increase from iron/steel. So, I'd say that the final cost is 500gp (for a 5 lb crowbar) *3 (for manufacturing costs - standard practice for making things) 1500 gp. I was thinking about adding additional cost for having to pay a master craftsman at making it, but the 3* material cost I thought was sufficient, and the base material cost is so high.

That's from the other thread where we discussed the additional hit points afforded by adamantine and it was suggested that it was 33% denser. I too did not find this in the rules, but thought it was a reasonable fix to something that appears kind of broken. Whether anyone accepts that is up to them, and your 1500gp figure might work for your DM, even if I think you're getting off cheap :)

It's already a masterwork crowbar (+2 to "checks" related to it), but it's darned good at smashing things (bypassing hardness less than 20) or breaking things through sheer force (+2 to said task, above it's "masterwork" quality). Though, I don't know what else you'd use a crowbar for if not to use sheer force to break something, so maybe the "extra" +2 should just be "Since it's masterwork, and since you are taking advantage of the strength of adamantium, you receive a +2 Bonus and a +2 Material Bonus to breaking things with it").

Is that a magical +2? If so, that'll cost you 4000 extra. As for other uses, a normal crowbar gives a +2 circumstance bonus on strength checks where it could be reasonably applied, so it could be a +4 door popper (with magical enhancement). As for the +2 material bonus, that is what circumventing hardness is, in effect making it up to a +20 damaging/sundering item, so no need for even more damage unless you are going to advance it in size, in fact there are 5' long prybars out there. :lightbulb
Erple2
07-11-05, 04:29 PM That's from the other thread where we discussed the additional hit points afforded by adamantine and it was suggested that it was 33% denser. I too did not find this in the rules, but thought it was a reasonable fix to something that appears kind of broken. Whether anyone accepts that is up to them, and your 1500gp figure might work for your DM, even if I think you're getting off cheap :)

Eh, I was just happy to throw up my hands and say "I dunno, it's some sort of weird semi-magical property" and be done with it, as for it being "stronger" (aka "harder" with more "hit points" than iron/steel. I could also say that maybe it's more akin to Titanium (which, pound for pound, is quite a bit stronger than steel in almost all cases - though technically, you could also say that aluminum, pound for pound, can make a stronger structure than could be made out of steel).

Is that a magical +2? If so, that'll cost you 4000 extra. As for other uses, a normal crowbar gives a +2 circumstance bonus on strength checks where it could be reasonably applied, so it could be a +4 door popper (with magical enhancement). As for the +2 material bonus, that is what circumventing hardness is, in effect making it up to a +20 damaging/sundering item, so no need for even more damage unless you are going to advance it in size, in fact there are 5' long prybars out there. :lightbulb

No, I was making it a special property of the material to grant an additional +2 bonus to it, above and beyond the +2 for being a "masterwork" tool. I'd liken it to the "aluminum" example: Because adamantium is stronger than steel, you can manufacture it into a slightly different shape than an equivalent 5 pound steel crowbar that could better use it's leverage. The form, however, would not be possible to manufacture out of steel, because of steel's less-desireable qualities with some forms? I dunno...

I wanted to make it actually worthwhile to make one out of adamantium (considering the excessive cost of it!)

My reasoning was more for the prying aspect of it, rather than the hardness problem (akin to making a strength check to burst an item, rather than whacking at it until it breaks). So maybe granting an additional +2 bonus to prying something open? I dunno.
ManinBlaq
07-11-05, 04:57 PM Yea, the point of a Adamantine Crowbar is to increase the the circumstance bonus to Strength checks for opening locks and doors ...

If I wanted to simply beat on them til they broke - I'd hire a half orc for much much cheaper.

Now - in 3.0 adamantine gave weapons an inherent +2 enhancement bonus -- was this stripped out of 3.5?

Originally I had worked it out as follows: base +2 circumstance bonus, Masterwork +2 bonus, +2 enhancement bonus (adamantine)
So the Adamantine Crowbar would give +6 circumstance bonus to strength checks for opening locks and doors.
Enterik
07-11-05, 05:09 PM My reasoning was more for the prying aspect of it, rather than the hardness problem (akin to making a strength check to burst an item, rather than whacking at it until it breaks). So maybe granting an additional +2 bonus to prying something open? I dunno.

Fair enough, make it thinner and longer and you'll get the extra mechanical advantage you were looking for, simplistically, double the length and double the bonus, keep the weight the same.
Erple2
07-11-05, 06:01 PM Fair enough, make it thinner and longer and you'll get the extra mechanical advantage you were looking for, simplistically, double the length and double the bonus, keep the weight the same.

That was exactly what I was getting at. Adamantine allows you to make choices in the design of the item that gives you those sorts of things. making an item 1/2 as thin, but 2x as long made of iron makes it easier to break the bar, and not what you're trying to force open.
ManinBlaq
07-11-05, 09:56 PM I found the "Wizard's Manacles" in an Eberron book.

They are masterwork manacles made of adamantine. Cost 3,250 gp. <sigh>

Well that was easy!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ManinBlaq 07-11-05, 01:12 PM	We started a new adventure this past weekend -- and off the cuff, I decided that he (my character) should be 'oddly' prepared. With that in mind - we had a hard time going forward and trying to determine Price and Benefit of creating Adamantine versions of standard tools. Adamantine Crowbar: Well, since the crowbar can be used as a weapon -- we determined that the base cost would be 3002 gp. However, what sort of benefit would it give you? It seems that 3.5 changed the enhancement bonus (+2) that was inherent with Adamantine Weapons... is that correct? (Ada. Weapons are no longer +2?) For spending 3000 gp over the base price -- I think an adamantine crowbar should give a +10 circumstance bonus. Adamantine Manacles: Aside from one PrC that I'm aware of, manacles are not used as weapons ... so what would be a fair price for them? (1,500 gp .. 1/2 of the weapon price?). And then what exactly would that give you? Would Adamantine Manacles (aside from being Masterwork) be more difficult to escape from -- thus have a higher Escape Artist DC? Obviously, the Strength DC to break them would be higher, but how would you compute that?
Bluebrush 07-11-05, 01:20 PM	The benefit of 3.5 adamantine is that is bypasses certain creature's damage reduction. Also, don't forget it ignores the hardness of most objects, making it very good for a sunderer and nigh-unsunderable itself.
Mad Mage 07-11-05, 01:26 PM	The benefit of 3.5 adamantine is that is bypasses certain creature's damage reduction. Also, don't forget it ignores the hardness of most objects, making it very good for a sunderer and nigh-unsunderable itself. Yeah, that would likely make breaking open containers of sorts much easier. Wouldn't a crowbar (if it's really a tool) be considered an improvised weapon? That is, unless Earth history places it originally as a weapon.
Enterik 07-11-05, 01:27 PM	We started a new adventure this past weekend -- and off the cuff, I decided that he (my character) should be 'oddly' prepared. With that in mind - we had a hard time going forward and trying to determine Price and Benefit of creating Adamantine versions of standard tools. Adamantine Crowbar: Well, since the crowbar can be used as a weapon -- we determined that the base cost would be 3002 gp. However, what sort of benefit would it give you? It seems that 3.5 changed the enhancement bonus (+2) that was inherent with Adamantine Weapons... is that correct? (Ada. Weapons are no longer +2?) For spending 3000 gp over the base price -- I think an adamantine crowbar should give a +10 circumstance bonus. Adamantine Manacles: Aside from one PrC that I'm aware of, manacles are not used as weapons ... so what would be a fair price for them? (1,500 gp .. 1/2 of the weapon price?). And then what exactly would that give you? Would Adamantine Manacles (aside from being Masterwork) be more difficult to escape from -- thus have a higher Escape Artist DC? Obviously, the Strength DC to break them would be higher, but how would you compute that? Well there is another thread that is considering the very issue of determining the per pound price of adamantine, maybe you should look there. My take, which may suit whomever you must please, is that it will weigh 33% more than the standard crowbar, so 6.67 lbs, the minimum material cost for 1 lb. of adamantine (by my calculations) is 100gp/lb for a 667gp crowbar. Now add twice that for crafting the item and you end up with 2001gp for an Adamantine crowbar...minimum.
Erple2 07-11-05, 03:04 PM	Well there is another thread that is considering the very issue of determining the per pound price of adamantine, maybe you should look there. My take, which may suit whomever you must please, is that it will weigh 33% more than the standard crowbar, so 6.67 lbs, the minimum material cost for 1 lb. of adamantine (by my calculations) is 100gp/lb for a 667gp crowbar. Now add twice that for crafting the item and you end up with 2001gp for an Adamantine crowbar...minimum. I didn't find anywhere the rules stated the +33% weight increase from iron/steel. So, I'd say that the final cost is 500gp (for a 5 lb crowbar) 3 (for manufacturing costs - standard practice for making things) 1500 gp. I was thinking about adding additional cost for having to pay a master craftsman at making it, but the 3 material cost I thought was sufficient, and the base material cost is so high. It's already a masterwork crowbar (+2 to "checks" related to it), but it's darned good at smashing things (bypassing hardness less than 20) or breaking things through sheer force (+2 to said task, above it's "masterwork" quality). Though, I don't know what else you'd use a crowbar for if not to use sheer force to break something, so maybe the "extra" +2 should just be "Since it's masterwork, and since you are taking advantage of the strength of adamantium, you receive a +2 Bonus and a +2 Material Bonus to breaking things with it").
Enterik 07-11-05, 04:01 PM	I didn't find anywhere the rules stated the +33% weight increase from iron/steel. So, I'd say that the final cost is 500gp (for a 5 lb crowbar) 3 (for manufacturing costs - standard practice for making things) 1500 gp. I was thinking about adding additional cost for having to pay a master craftsman at making it, but the 3 material cost I thought was sufficient, and the base material cost is so high. That's from the other thread where we discussed the additional hit points afforded by adamantine and it was suggested that it was 33% denser. I too did not find this in the rules, but thought it was a reasonable fix to something that appears kind of broken. Whether anyone accepts that is up to them, and your 1500gp figure might work for your DM, even if I think you're getting off cheap :) It's already a masterwork crowbar (+2 to "checks" related to it), but it's darned good at smashing things (bypassing hardness less than 20) or breaking things through sheer force (+2 to said task, above it's "masterwork" quality). Though, I don't know what else you'd use a crowbar for if not to use sheer force to break something, so maybe the "extra" +2 should just be "Since it's masterwork, and since you are taking advantage of the strength of adamantium, you receive a +2 Bonus and a +2 Material Bonus to breaking things with it"). Is that a magical +2? If so, that'll cost you 4000 extra. As for other uses, a normal crowbar gives a +2 circumstance bonus on strength checks where it could be reasonably applied, so it could be a +4 door popper (with magical enhancement). As for the +2 material bonus, that is what circumventing hardness is, in effect making it up to a +20 damaging/sundering item, so no need for even more damage unless you are going to advance it in size, in fact there are 5' long prybars out there. :lightbulb
Erple2 07-11-05, 04:29 PM	That's from the other thread where we discussed the additional hit points afforded by adamantine and it was suggested that it was 33% denser. I too did not find this in the rules, but thought it was a reasonable fix to something that appears kind of broken. Whether anyone accepts that is up to them, and your 1500gp figure might work for your DM, even if I think you're getting off cheap :) Eh, I was just happy to throw up my hands and say "I dunno, it's some sort of weird semi-magical property" and be done with it, as for it being "stronger" (aka "harder" with more "hit points" than iron/steel. I could also say that maybe it's more akin to Titanium (which, pound for pound, is quite a bit stronger than steel in almost all cases - though technically, you could also say that aluminum, pound for pound, can make a stronger structure than could be made out of steel). Is that a magical +2? If so, that'll cost you 4000 extra. As for other uses, a normal crowbar gives a +2 circumstance bonus on strength checks where it could be reasonably applied, so it could be a +4 door popper (with magical enhancement). As for the +2 material bonus, that is what circumventing hardness is, in effect making it up to a +20 damaging/sundering item, so no need for even more damage unless you are going to advance it in size, in fact there are 5' long prybars out there. :lightbulb No, I was making it a special property of the material to grant an additional +2 bonus to it, above and beyond the +2 for being a "masterwork" tool. I'd liken it to the "aluminum" example: Because adamantium is stronger than steel, you can manufacture it into a slightly different shape than an equivalent 5 pound steel crowbar that could better use it's leverage. The form, however, would not be possible to manufacture out of steel, because of steel's less-desireable qualities with some forms? I dunno... I wanted to make it actually worthwhile to make one out of adamantium (considering the excessive cost of it!) My reasoning was more for the prying aspect of it, rather than the hardness problem (akin to making a strength check to burst an item, rather than whacking at it until it breaks). So maybe granting an additional +2 bonus to prying something open? I dunno.
ManinBlaq 07-11-05, 04:57 PM	Yea, the point of a Adamantine Crowbar is to increase the the circumstance bonus to Strength checks for opening locks and doors ... If I wanted to simply beat on them til they broke - I'd hire a half orc for much much cheaper. Now - in 3.0 adamantine gave weapons an inherent +2 enhancement bonus -- was this stripped out of 3.5? Originally I had worked it out as follows: base +2 circumstance bonus, Masterwork +2 bonus, +2 enhancement bonus (adamantine) So the Adamantine Crowbar would give +6 circumstance bonus to strength checks for opening locks and doors.
Enterik 07-11-05, 05:09 PM	My reasoning was more for the prying aspect of it, rather than the hardness problem (akin to making a strength check to burst an item, rather than whacking at it until it breaks). So maybe granting an additional +2 bonus to prying something open? I dunno. Fair enough, make it thinner and longer and you'll get the extra mechanical advantage you were looking for, simplistically, double the length and double the bonus, keep the weight the same.
Erple2 07-11-05, 06:01 PM	Fair enough, make it thinner and longer and you'll get the extra mechanical advantage you were looking for, simplistically, double the length and double the bonus, keep the weight the same. That was exactly what I was getting at. Adamantine allows you to make choices in the design of the item that gives you those sorts of things. making an item 1/2 as thin, but 2x as long made of iron makes it easier to break the bar, and not what you're trying to force open.
ManinBlaq 07-11-05, 09:56 PM	I found the "Wizard's Manacles" in an Eberron book. They are masterwork manacles made of adamantine. Cost 3,250 gp. <sigh> Well that was easy!!