adamantine defending weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

adamantine defending weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Admiral Yi Sun Shin
11-22-04, 10:03 PM I have a quick question, if you have a +5 adamantine defending sword and you exhaust all of the +5 enhancement to your AC, does your sword still count as +1 because its adamantine? Could you in fact use the +1 from the adamantine to make your AC +6?
Talanall
11-22-04, 10:22 PM In 3.0, it would strike as a +1 weapon, yes. You would not be able to use that +1 equivalent as a bonus via the defending property.

In 3.5 rules, that's not how adamantine works, so it would strike as a masterwork weapon.
Mitchell
11-22-04, 10:25 PM Second question first... No. The fact that a weapon is adamantine has nothing to do with how the defending property works. A +5 defending weapon may not add more than +5 to your AC.

The first question. Well... There are two schools of thought that I have seen. The first is that you would still get the bonus because the attack bonus is overlapped by the magical bonus.
The second is that the bonus is sacrificed when the weapon is made magical.

I don't know of any official rulings anywhere, so talk to your DM, or if you are the DM, take your pick.

I am just finding it odd that an adamantine weapon specifies a +1 to attack when it is a masterwork weapon by default, so it already has a +1 to attack. I'll have to look at some stuff later.

In the meantime, I would say that you still get the +1, because at the level you should be to obtain a +6 (+5, +1 for defending) adamantine weapon, the +1 probably won't make a big difference.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin
11-22-04, 10:26 PM I do belive that adamantine weapons in 3.5 still get +1 natural enhancement to hit and damage...that is either overruled by magic enhancement of if you're in a magic dead zone or if you have no magic enhancement...

Unless in 3.5, you're saying that when I use this defending ability, I simply lose that natural bonus also?
Talanall
11-22-04, 10:33 PM No. I'm saying you're mistaken about how adamantine works in 3.5. In 3.5, it pierces DR/adamantine, has hardness 20, has higher hp per inch of thickness than iron, and bypasses objects' hardnesses when it is used to attack them, unless it said hardness is more than 20.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin
11-22-04, 10:48 PM Yeah I know, but it still grants +1 to hit and damage, I checked it in the 3.5 DMG. You may want to double check as well.
Talanall
11-22-04, 10:56 PM Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of admantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type.

Emphasis mine. In 3.5, it functions as a masterwork weapon. It does not function as a magical weapon, unless it is actually magical, in which case it functions like any other magical weapon. Triple check, if you wish, and read the entry very carefully, taking especial pains not to insert words that aren't there.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin
11-22-04, 11:29 PM Ok, so its just +1 to attack rolls, regardless, does that still apply after i have exhausted the +5 magical enhancement to my defense via "defending." I'm guessing I still keep that +1 to hit.
Talanall
11-22-04, 11:30 PM Yes, the bonus to attack rolls still applies.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin
11-22-04, 11:43 PM Ok, thanks I got all the answers I need, no need for further replies, let the thread die, or you can continue to have off-topic discussions if you'd like. Bye.
Wolf72
11-23-04, 09:45 AM Yes, the bonus to attack rolls still applies.

ya know, I just learned something new today ... even after all the magic +'s are gone you still have a MW weapon ... DUH!!! ... I don't know why I didn't apply that before (it's a similiar effect for Anti Magic field).
kjenks
11-23-04, 09:59 AM By a strict reading of the Defending ability and stacking rules, the adamantine (or masterwork) weapon's enhancement bonus does not still apply to attact rolls if the Defending ability is used "all the way."

Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

Adamantine and other masterwork weapons have an enhancement bonus on their attack rolls. This enhancement bonus overlaps with (does not stack with) the magical enhancement bonus on a magical weapon.

A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

The Defending ability allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC. If you transfer all of your sword's enhancement bonus to your AC, that would logically include both the magical enhancement bonus and the enhancement bonus from the masterwork quality.

So, no, you don't get +1 on your attack rolls and you only get +5 on your AC if you transfer all of the enhancement bonus from a +5 Defending sword to your AC.
Wolf72
11-23-04, 12:26 PM POOP!!! ...

it was worth a shot, thanks for the precise clarification though :)
KangTheCallipygian
11-23-04, 04:04 PM It might still be worth a shot - it's certainly true that the masterwork and magical enhancement bonuses normally don't stack, but according to the quote of Defending's description kjenks provided, when you transfer the defending weapon's enhancement bonus to your AC it is "as a bonus that stacks with all others". Unless there is some reason I've overlooked why you can't separate the overlapping enhancement bonuses in order to allocate them to AC - and we know it is possible to separate them under certain circumstances, such as the antimagic field you mentioned above - I don't see why you couldn't transfer +5 from the magic to AC and keep the masterwork +1 to attack rolls, or transfer all 6 points as stackable bonuses. Or even transfer +4 from magic and +1 from masterwork to AC, leaving a magical +1 enhancement bonus that affects not just attack rolls, but damage rolls as well. You might get called a munchkin, and possibly rightly so, but the RAW don't prohibit it as far as I can see. Not that I've spent hours researching it or anything...

Kang
BlackFiend
11-23-04, 04:31 PM All magic weapons have masterwork bonuses. Admantine is not the issue here. Masterwork is.

Going as written and examples seen for years...no you don't get the MW enhancement bonus. Period. Its simply out of the question.

Its a kin to taking a vow of poverty, and borrowing armor, weapons, potions, and amulets from your friends for a few weeks. Technically, you can pull it out of your ass linguistically, but you are defeating the point completely.
kjenks
11-23-04, 05:02 PM I don't see why you couldn't transfer +5 from the magic to AC and keep the masterwork +1 to attack rolls, or transfer all 6 points as stackable bonuses.

The reason is that if you transfer ALL of the enhancement bonus to AC, that includes both the magical enhancement bonus from it being a magical weapon and the non-magical enhancement bonus from it being masterwork. There really aren't two ways to interpet the word ALL.

And because of the stacking rules, there aren't 6 points as stackable bonuses. A +5 Defending sword would have a +5 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, which would overlap with the +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls from the masterwork quality. Overlap, not stack.
primemover003
11-23-04, 06:42 PM ALL being the magical enhancement bonuses... the masterwork +1 however is independant of the magic. In the case where you use all the Magical +'s of your weapon for AC you STILL have a +1 bonus (to hit) for wielding a Masterwork weapon.

The magic and mundane enhancement bonuses overlap, but are seperate.

If I'm in an AMF I still have my +1 masterwork bonus, If my weapon is the target of a Dispel Magic it retains the masterwork +1 while the magic is supressed. Those are the only precedents to compare to. Neither a FAQ nor an Errata has said differently. The Masterwork bonus is not affected by the Defending property.

You use the best of ALL available bonuses... if you have no magical ones, you certainly have the Masterwork component.
kjenks
11-23-04, 10:51 PM ALL being the magical enhancement bonuses... the masterwork +1 however is independant of the magic. In the case where you use all the Magical +'s of your weapon for AC you STILL have a +1 bonus (to hit) for wielding a Masterwork weapon.

Which part of the word ALL are you having a problem with?

Let's take a +5 Defending sword and allocate its enhancement bonus according to the rules in the description of the Defending ability ("A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC").

+5 to attack/damage, none to AC.
+4 to attack/damage, +1 to AC. That's "some."
+3 to attack/damage, +2 to AC. That's "some."
+2 to attack/damage, +3 to AC. That's "some."
+1 to attack/damage, +4 to AC. That's "some."
+0 to attack/damage, +5 to AC. That's "all."

See how it works? If you transfer the enhancement bonuses to AC, they no longer apply to either attack or damage. According to the stacking rules, enhancement bonuses are enhancement bonuses, no matter what the source, so the Defending ability even allows you to transfer the +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls from the masterwork property to your AC.

I can think of several sources of enhancement bonuses, all of which overlap: masterwork quality, magical weapon, Magic Weapon spell, Greater Magic Weapon spell, Shillelagh spell, Spikes spell, Holy Sword spell, and Mordenkainen's Sword spell. You could conceivably have all of them in effect on the same weapon at the same time. (Don't try this. It would be dumb.)
strontium
11-24-04, 01:52 AM +5 to attack/damage, none to AC.
+4 to attack/damage, +1 to AC. That's "some."
+3 to attack/damage, +2 to AC. That's "some."
+2 to attack/damage, +3 to AC. That's "some."
+1 to attack/damage, +4 to AC. That's "some."
+0 to attack/damage, +5 to AC. That's "all."

Depending on your point of view, it's not necessarily 'all', it can be 'the maximum available'.

By this i mean, Instead of allocating "all" you could allocate +5. This would reduce the weapons magical enhancement bonus from +5 to +0. The materwork enhancement bonus is no longer overlapping and could then come into play.

I dont agree with it, it's not in the spirit of the game, but rules wise its a loophole.

Or not, just a thought ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Admiral Yi Sun Shin 11-22-04, 10:03 PM	I have a quick question, if you have a +5 adamantine defending sword and you exhaust all of the +5 enhancement to your AC, does your sword still count as +1 because its adamantine? Could you in fact use the +1 from the adamantine to make your AC +6?
Talanall 11-22-04, 10:22 PM	In 3.0, it would strike as a +1 weapon, yes. You would not be able to use that +1 equivalent as a bonus via the defending property. In 3.5 rules, that's not how adamantine works, so it would strike as a masterwork weapon.
Mitchell 11-22-04, 10:25 PM	Second question first... No. The fact that a weapon is adamantine has nothing to do with how the defending property works. A +5 defending weapon may not add more than +5 to your AC. The first question. Well... There are two schools of thought that I have seen. The first is that you would still get the bonus because the attack bonus is overlapped by the magical bonus. The second is that the bonus is sacrificed when the weapon is made magical. I don't know of any official rulings anywhere, so talk to your DM, or if you are the DM, take your pick. I am just finding it odd that an adamantine weapon specifies a +1 to attack when it is a masterwork weapon by default, so it already has a +1 to attack. I'll have to look at some stuff later. In the meantime, I would say that you still get the +1, because at the level you should be to obtain a +6 (+5, +1 for defending) adamantine weapon, the +1 probably won't make a big difference.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin 11-22-04, 10:26 PM	I do belive that adamantine weapons in 3.5 still get +1 natural enhancement to hit and damage...that is either overruled by magic enhancement of if you're in a magic dead zone or if you have no magic enhancement... Unless in 3.5, you're saying that when I use this defending ability, I simply lose that natural bonus also?
Talanall 11-22-04, 10:33 PM	No. I'm saying you're mistaken about how adamantine works in 3.5. In 3.5, it pierces DR/adamantine, has hardness 20, has higher hp per inch of thickness than iron, and bypasses objects' hardnesses when it is used to attack them, unless it said hardness is more than 20.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin 11-22-04, 10:48 PM	Yeah I know, but it still grants +1 to hit and damage, I checked it in the 3.5 DMG. You may want to double check as well.
Talanall 11-22-04, 10:56 PM	Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of admantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Emphasis mine. In 3.5, it functions as a masterwork weapon. It does not function as a magical weapon, unless it is actually magical, in which case it functions like any other magical weapon. Triple check, if you wish, and read the entry very carefully, taking especial pains not to insert words that aren't there.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin 11-22-04, 11:29 PM	Ok, so its just +1 to attack rolls, regardless, does that still apply after i have exhausted the +5 magical enhancement to my defense via "defending." I'm guessing I still keep that +1 to hit.
Talanall 11-22-04, 11:30 PM	Yes, the bonus to attack rolls still applies.
Admiral Yi Sun Shin 11-22-04, 11:43 PM	Ok, thanks I got all the answers I need, no need for further replies, let the thread die, or you can continue to have off-topic discussions if you'd like. Bye.
Wolf72 11-23-04, 09:45 AM	Yes, the bonus to attack rolls still applies. ya know, I just learned something new today ... even after all the magic +'s are gone you still have a MW weapon ... DUH!!! ... I don't know why I didn't apply that before (it's a similiar effect for Anti Magic field).
kjenks 11-23-04, 09:59 AM	By a strict reading of the Defending ability and stacking rules, the adamantine (or masterwork) weapon's enhancement bonus does not still apply to attact rolls if the Defending ability is used "all the way." Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. Adamantine and other masterwork weapons have an enhancement bonus on their attack rolls. This enhancement bonus overlaps with (does not stack with) the magical enhancement bonus on a magical weapon. A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. The Defending ability allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC. If you transfer all of your sword's enhancement bonus to your AC, that would logically include both the magical enhancement bonus and the enhancement bonus from the masterwork quality. So, no, you don't get +1 on your attack rolls and you only get +5 on your AC if you transfer all of the enhancement bonus from a +5 Defending sword to your AC.
Wolf72 11-23-04, 12:26 PM	POOP!!! ... it was worth a shot, thanks for the precise clarification though :)
KangTheCallipygian 11-23-04, 04:04 PM	It might still be worth a shot - it's certainly true that the masterwork and magical enhancement bonuses normally don't stack, but according to the quote of Defending's description kjenks provided, when you transfer the defending weapon's enhancement bonus to your AC it is "as a bonus that stacks with all others". Unless there is some reason I've overlooked why you can't separate the overlapping enhancement bonuses in order to allocate them to AC - and we know it is possible to separate them under certain circumstances, such as the antimagic field you mentioned above - I don't see why you couldn't transfer +5 from the magic to AC and keep the masterwork +1 to attack rolls, or transfer all 6 points as stackable bonuses. Or even transfer +4 from magic and +1 from masterwork to AC, leaving a magical +1 enhancement bonus that affects not just attack rolls, but damage rolls as well. You might get called a munchkin, and possibly rightly so, but the RAW don't prohibit it as far as I can see. Not that I've spent hours researching it or anything... Kang
BlackFiend 11-23-04, 04:31 PM	All magic weapons have masterwork bonuses. Admantine is not the issue here. Masterwork is. Going as written and examples seen for years...no you don't get the MW enhancement bonus. Period. Its simply out of the question. Its a kin to taking a vow of poverty, and borrowing armor, weapons, potions, and amulets from your friends for a few weeks. Technically, you can pull it out of your ass linguistically, but you are defeating the point completely.
kjenks 11-23-04, 05:02 PM	I don't see why you couldn't transfer +5 from the magic to AC and keep the masterwork +1 to attack rolls, or transfer all 6 points as stackable bonuses. The reason is that if you transfer ALL of the enhancement bonus to AC, that includes both the magical enhancement bonus from it being a magical weapon and the non-magical enhancement bonus from it being masterwork. There really aren't two ways to interpet the word ALL. And because of the stacking rules, there aren't 6 points as stackable bonuses. A +5 Defending sword would have a +5 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, which would overlap with the +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls from the masterwork quality. Overlap, not stack.
primemover003 11-23-04, 06:42 PM	ALL being the magical enhancement bonuses... the masterwork +1 however is independant of the magic. In the case where you use all the Magical +'s of your weapon for AC you STILL have a +1 bonus (to hit) for wielding a Masterwork weapon. The magic and mundane enhancement bonuses overlap, but are seperate. If I'm in an AMF I still have my +1 masterwork bonus, If my weapon is the target of a Dispel Magic it retains the masterwork +1 while the magic is supressed. Those are the only precedents to compare to. Neither a FAQ nor an Errata has said differently. The Masterwork bonus is not affected by the Defending property. You use the best of ALL available bonuses... if you have no magical ones, you certainly have the Masterwork component.
kjenks 11-23-04, 10:51 PM	ALL being the magical enhancement bonuses... the masterwork +1 however is independant of the magic. In the case where you use all the Magical +'s of your weapon for AC you STILL have a +1 bonus (to hit) for wielding a Masterwork weapon. Which part of the word ALL are you having a problem with? Let's take a +5 Defending sword and allocate its enhancement bonus according to the rules in the description of the Defending ability ("A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC"). +5 to attack/damage, none to AC. +4 to attack/damage, +1 to AC. That's "some." +3 to attack/damage, +2 to AC. That's "some." +2 to attack/damage, +3 to AC. That's "some." +1 to attack/damage, +4 to AC. That's "some." +0 to attack/damage, +5 to AC. That's "all." See how it works? If you transfer the enhancement bonuses to AC, they no longer apply to either attack or damage. According to the stacking rules, enhancement bonuses are enhancement bonuses, no matter what the source, so the Defending ability even allows you to transfer the +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls from the masterwork property to your AC. I can think of several sources of enhancement bonuses, all of which overlap: masterwork quality, magical weapon, Magic Weapon spell, Greater Magic Weapon spell, Shillelagh spell, Spikes spell, Holy Sword spell, and Mordenkainen's Sword spell. You could conceivably have all of them in effect on the same weapon at the same time. (Don't try this. It would be dumb.)
strontium 11-24-04, 01:52 AM	+5 to attack/damage, none to AC. +4 to attack/damage, +1 to AC. That's "some." +3 to attack/damage, +2 to AC. That's "some." +2 to attack/damage, +3 to AC. That's "some." +1 to attack/damage, +4 to AC. That's "some." +0 to attack/damage, +5 to AC. That's "all." Depending on your point of view, it's not necessarily 'all', it can be 'the maximum available'. By this i mean, Instead of allocating "all" you could allocate +5. This would reduce the weapons magical enhancement bonus from +5 to +0. The materwork enhancement bonus is no longer overlapping and could then come into play. I dont agree with it, it's not in the spirit of the game, but rules wise its a loophole. Or not, just a thought ;)