Adamantine Mind Blade Gauntlets=Swiss Army Soulknife? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adamantine Mind Blade Gauntlets=Swiss Army Soulknife? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
deathbstrd
12-18-07, 02:30 AM Hey, just though I'd see if I could get some input on this one:

I was flipping through the Magic Item Compendium the other day looking to see if I could find any cool items that I might want to buy for my soulknife PC. Adamantine Mind Blade Gauntlets (pg. 68) seemed unimpressive when I first read it, but on a closer look I think they might border on ridiculously powerful for such an inexpensive item. The gauntlets essentially let you swap out a +1 equivalent enhancement bonus property on a soulknife's mind blade in exchange for treating it as an adamantine weapon. No big deal, right? Well, if I'm reading the description correctly, it lets you choose whether to use the adamantine property or any other +1 property from the soulknife's list of abilities each time he materializes his mind blade. Considering that it normally takes 8 hours to switch out an ability, this seems really powerful.

I could easily see the argument that the soulknife can simply choose between whatever ability he already has on his mind blade and adamantine, and he can't change to another one from the list. No problem, right? But what happens if, say, he has a +2 ability on his weapon, such as collison? Does he get to choose a +1 equivalent power when he uses the gauntlet so the enhancement bonus adds up to +2, or does he not get the full use of his +2 ability? Does he get to choose a +1 ability to use in addition to the adamantine property? I would really like to be able to switch from vicious to keen to defending to ghost touch (from Illumine Soul PrC)as the situation calls for it. This would be a great item if it let you swap out abilities like that at will, but I think it probably might be a little too great for the price :)

I brought this up at my game tonight to my DM, because I was trying to head off some potential trouble before I actually go out and try to get this item in game. My DM suggested throwing this question up on the boards to see what you guys think about it. The wording on this magic item is a bit on the vague side of things, and I'm curious to see if this has come up in anyone else's game. I don't think it's too big a deal to give the already weak-ish soulknife a little more flexibility, but I'm not sure about this item.

Thanks in advance for your input!
Cifer
12-18-07, 09:28 AM It doesn't really matter - in a normal campaign (= magic items readily existant), the soulblade simply sucks. Improving it won't exactly unbalance the game.
Belkar
12-18-07, 10:29 AM It doesn't really matter - in a normal campaign (= magic items readily existant), the soulblade simply sucks. Improving it won't exactly unbalance the game.

Wow. Not only did you not answer his question, you tossed in a rather rude supposition that has no constructive or creative input whatsoever. Bravo, Cifer! He didn't ask for an opinion of his class decision... he asked for help with a problem. Sheesh.

Honestly, bro... I've seen better posts from you... :nonono:

Deathbstrd, I happen to think the Soulknife is a very flavorful class. And, it's the class you have chosen to play. As to your question:

Yes, this is how I read it as well. This is actually along the lines of similarly priced magical items that allow prepared casters to "swap out other spells known" on the fly. As such, I don't think it's that imbalancing.

However, as a DM, I would rule that making the mindblade adamantine effectively "uses up" a +1 of your enhancement. Hope that helps. :)
deathbstrd
12-18-07, 02:16 PM It doesn't really matter - in a normal campaign (= magic items readily existant), the soulblade simply sucks. Improving it won't exactly unbalance the game.

You are not alone in thinking the soulknife sucks or is underpowered. There seems something close to a consensus on the boards that the soulknife is one of the weaker classes.

However, I played a single class soulknife from levels 4 to 11 in a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign and I found that he could more than hold his own in most encounters. With the right feats, a soulknife can make a very effective character. I went with Spring Attack and Deep Impact (Power Attack later), and it has worked out very well. One of the main complaints about the soulknife seems to be base attack, but it hasn't bothered me too much. With free weapon focus and free enhancement bonuses on the weapon, his total attack bonus remained decent. The thing that worked against me the most was the low Fort save.

We play in the Forgotten Realms, and as close to the RAW as possible (we have a few rules fanatic ex-DMs in the group, including myself). There are plenty of magic items for sale, and we can usually find what we are looking for (by-the-book magic items). One of the things that works out really well for the soulknife is the fact that he doesn't have to buy a weapon- that's thousands of gp right there that can be spent on other items, like armor or defensive items, as long as he's getting his fair share of the treasure.

...
Yes, this is how I read it as well. This is actually along the lines of similarly priced magical items that allow prepared casters to "swap out other spells known" on the fly. As such, I don't think it's that imbalancing.

However, as a DM, I would rule that making the mindblade adamantine effectively "uses up" a +1 of your enhancement. Hope that helps. :)

The trouble with having the adamantine power permanently take up one of his +1 abilities is that most of the time adamantine is not really worth a +1 ability. It's only really good against creatures with that specific DR, or if you're breaking stuff. I'd take keen or psychokenetic over it any day because they are useful in way more encounters than adamantine, which I think is really why this item was designed the way it was. I just wish it could be spelled out a little clearer what you can do with your enhancement bonuses while it's not in adamantine mode...

I think "swap out other spells known" is good analogy, and I don't think it's anywhere near as powerful as that kind of ability.
Fafnir
12-18-07, 04:36 PM The simple (and strictly RAW) ruling is that, since it takes the place of a +1 enhancement, if there aren't any, the gauntlet simply cannot be used.

This means you need to keep the weapon shaped with a +1 enhancement all of the time. I suggest using Keen, since things you need to use adamantium on are usually immune to criticals anyway.
angelus_truelove
12-18-07, 04:42 PM There's another item in the rings section of the book that works similarly. It grants all of your attacks (including natural and mindblades) the properties of adamantium all the time. It is (I believe) a little more costly than the guantlet though.
Cifer
12-18-07, 06:22 PM @Belkar
I'm afraid you misinterpret my post. I put forth the opinion that a soulknife is among the weaker/weakest classes of the game. Following on that I concluded that while giving it the "swiss army adamantium" ability is probably a significant powerup, it will not result in the class becoming significantly stronger than others. Thus, it doesn't unbalance things and can be granted whether it is intended as such or not.
Belkar
12-19-07, 09:29 AM @Belkar
I'm afraid you misinterpret my post. I put forth the opinion that a soulknife is among the weaker/weakest classes of the game. Following on that I concluded that while giving it the "swiss army adamantium" ability is probably a significant powerup, it will not result in the class becoming significantly stronger than others. Thus, it doesn't unbalance things and can be granted whether it is intended as such or not.

My point, Cifer, was that I feel your point could have been made without taking the time to (essentially) bash the OP for his choice of class. [shrug]
Cifer
12-19-07, 03:31 PM @Belkar
If I say that D&D is a bad game and inferior to game A, do I bash every D&D player in existence for their choice of game? I mean, that would be quite a feat, wouldn't it...?
Assuming that behind every "attack" on a subject stands also an attack on all the people who hold the subject dear won't really help you. I've re-read my post three times now, and I still can't find the point where I berate the OP for his choice of class...
Belkar
12-19-07, 04:48 PM the soulblade simply sucks.

That's the point where you bash his class.

Look, Cifer... I don't wanna get into an argument with you - and honestly, I find you to be a spot-on poster. I always know I can read your posts for nuggets of wisdom and truth and a pretty hefty modicum of intelligence.

That's why I was surprised to see you respond this way.

If I say that D&D is a bad game and inferior to game A, do I bash every D&D player in existence for their choice of game?

You're taking my inference to an unnatural extreme. What this would be analagous to is someone saying to you, "Hey, I'm playing D&D this weekend with my friends. We've got it all planned out! But I was wondering if you could help me flesh out a portion of my game." Then if you were to respond with, "D&D sucks. Why are you playing it? [sigh] Show me what you've got..."

That would be along the same lines. No, you're not "bashing every D&D player in existence for their choice of game" - but you've let the person who asked for help know that - regardless of the probably good advice you will give - you think his decision that generated the question in the first place is stupid.

Cifer... maybe I'm just blowing this way out of proportion... and I totally mis-read your post. Heck, the OP hasn't seemed to take exception to it... So forgive me if I'm mis-construing.

As I said, I respect you as one of the rare good posters out there. :) It just surprised me, that's all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deathbstrd 12-18-07, 02:30 AM	Hey, just though I'd see if I could get some input on this one: I was flipping through the Magic Item Compendium the other day looking to see if I could find any cool items that I might want to buy for my soulknife PC. Adamantine Mind Blade Gauntlets (pg. 68) seemed unimpressive when I first read it, but on a closer look I think they might border on ridiculously powerful for such an inexpensive item. The gauntlets essentially let you swap out a +1 equivalent enhancement bonus property on a soulknife's mind blade in exchange for treating it as an adamantine weapon. No big deal, right? Well, if I'm reading the description correctly, it lets you choose whether to use the adamantine property or any other +1 property from the soulknife's list of abilities each time he materializes his mind blade. Considering that it normally takes 8 hours to switch out an ability, this seems really powerful. I could easily see the argument that the soulknife can simply choose between whatever ability he already has on his mind blade and adamantine, and he can't change to another one from the list. No problem, right? But what happens if, say, he has a +2 ability on his weapon, such as collison? Does he get to choose a +1 equivalent power when he uses the gauntlet so the enhancement bonus adds up to +2, or does he not get the full use of his +2 ability? Does he get to choose a +1 ability to use in addition to the adamantine property? I would really like to be able to switch from vicious to keen to defending to ghost touch (from Illumine Soul PrC)as the situation calls for it. This would be a great item if it let you swap out abilities like that at will, but I think it probably might be a little too great for the price :) I brought this up at my game tonight to my DM, because I was trying to head off some potential trouble before I actually go out and try to get this item in game. My DM suggested throwing this question up on the boards to see what you guys think about it. The wording on this magic item is a bit on the vague side of things, and I'm curious to see if this has come up in anyone else's game. I don't think it's too big a deal to give the already weak-ish soulknife a little more flexibility, but I'm not sure about this item. Thanks in advance for your input!
Cifer 12-18-07, 09:28 AM	It doesn't really matter - in a normal campaign (= magic items readily existant), the soulblade simply sucks. Improving it won't exactly unbalance the game.
Belkar 12-18-07, 10:29 AM	It doesn't really matter - in a normal campaign (= magic items readily existant), the soulblade simply sucks. Improving it won't exactly unbalance the game. Wow. Not only did you not answer his question, you tossed in a rather rude supposition that has no constructive or creative input whatsoever. Bravo, Cifer! He didn't ask for an opinion of his class decision... he asked for help with a problem. Sheesh. Honestly, bro... I've seen better posts from you... :nonono: Deathbstrd, I happen to think the Soulknife is a very flavorful class. And, it's the class you have chosen to play. As to your question: Yes, this is how I read it as well. This is actually along the lines of similarly priced magical items that allow prepared casters to "swap out other spells known" on the fly. As such, I don't think it's that imbalancing. However, as a DM, I would rule that making the mindblade adamantine effectively "uses up" a +1 of your enhancement. Hope that helps. :)
deathbstrd 12-18-07, 02:16 PM	It doesn't really matter - in a normal campaign (= magic items readily existant), the soulblade simply sucks. Improving it won't exactly unbalance the game. You are not alone in thinking the soulknife sucks or is underpowered. There seems something close to a consensus on the boards that the soulknife is one of the weaker classes. However, I played a single class soulknife from levels 4 to 11 in a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign and I found that he could more than hold his own in most encounters. With the right feats, a soulknife can make a very effective character. I went with Spring Attack and Deep Impact (Power Attack later), and it has worked out very well. One of the main complaints about the soulknife seems to be base attack, but it hasn't bothered me too much. With free weapon focus and free enhancement bonuses on the weapon, his total attack bonus remained decent. The thing that worked against me the most was the low Fort save. We play in the Forgotten Realms, and as close to the RAW as possible (we have a few rules fanatic ex-DMs in the group, including myself). There are plenty of magic items for sale, and we can usually find what we are looking for (by-the-book magic items). One of the things that works out really well for the soulknife is the fact that he doesn't have to buy a weapon- that's thousands of gp right there that can be spent on other items, like armor or defensive items, as long as he's getting his fair share of the treasure. ... Yes, this is how I read it as well. This is actually along the lines of similarly priced magical items that allow prepared casters to "swap out other spells known" on the fly. As such, I don't think it's that imbalancing. However, as a DM, I would rule that making the mindblade adamantine effectively "uses up" a +1 of your enhancement. Hope that helps. :) The trouble with having the adamantine power permanently take up one of his +1 abilities is that most of the time adamantine is not really worth a +1 ability. It's only really good against creatures with that specific DR, or if you're breaking stuff. I'd take keen or psychokenetic over it any day because they are useful in way more encounters than adamantine, which I think is really why this item was designed the way it was. I just wish it could be spelled out a little clearer what you can do with your enhancement bonuses while it's not in adamantine mode... I think "swap out other spells known" is good analogy, and I don't think it's anywhere near as powerful as that kind of ability.
Fafnir 12-18-07, 04:36 PM	The simple (and strictly RAW) ruling is that, since it takes the place of a +1 enhancement, if there aren't any, the gauntlet simply cannot be used. This means you need to keep the weapon shaped with a +1 enhancement all of the time. I suggest using Keen, since things you need to use adamantium on are usually immune to criticals anyway.
angelus_truelove 12-18-07, 04:42 PM	There's another item in the rings section of the book that works similarly. It grants all of your attacks (including natural and mindblades) the properties of adamantium all the time. It is (I believe) a little more costly than the guantlet though.
Cifer 12-18-07, 06:22 PM	@Belkar I'm afraid you misinterpret my post. I put forth the opinion that a soulknife is among the weaker/weakest classes of the game. Following on that I concluded that while giving it the "swiss army adamantium" ability is probably a significant powerup, it will not result in the class becoming significantly stronger than others. Thus, it doesn't unbalance things and can be granted whether it is intended as such or not.
Belkar 12-19-07, 09:29 AM	@Belkar I'm afraid you misinterpret my post. I put forth the opinion that a soulknife is among the weaker/weakest classes of the game. Following on that I concluded that while giving it the "swiss army adamantium" ability is probably a significant powerup, it will not result in the class becoming significantly stronger than others. Thus, it doesn't unbalance things and can be granted whether it is intended as such or not. My point, Cifer, was that I feel your point could have been made without taking the time to (essentially) bash the OP for his choice of class. [shrug]
Cifer 12-19-07, 03:31 PM	@Belkar If I say that D&D is a bad game and inferior to game A, do I bash every D&D player in existence for their choice of game? I mean, that would be quite a feat, wouldn't it...? Assuming that behind every "attack" on a subject stands also an attack on all the people who hold the subject dear won't really help you. I've re-read my post three times now, and I still can't find the point where I berate the OP for his choice of class...
Belkar 12-19-07, 04:48 PM	the soulblade simply sucks. That's the point where you bash his class. Look, Cifer... I don't wanna get into an argument with you - and honestly, I find you to be a spot-on poster. I always know I can read your posts for nuggets of wisdom and truth and a pretty hefty modicum of intelligence. That's why I was surprised to see you respond this way. If I say that D&D is a bad game and inferior to game A, do I bash every D&D player in existence for their choice of game? You're taking my inference to an unnatural extreme. What this would be analagous to is someone saying to you, "Hey, I'm playing D&D this weekend with my friends. We've got it all planned out! But I was wondering if you could help me flesh out a portion of my game." Then if you were to respond with, "D&D sucks. Why are you playing it? [sigh] Show me what you've got..." That would be along the same lines. No, you're not "bashing every D&D player in existence for their choice of game" - but you've let the person who asked for help know that - regardless of the probably good advice you will give - you think his decision that generated the question in the first place is stupid. Cifer... maybe I'm just blowing this way out of proportion... and I totally mis-read your post. Heck, the OP hasn't seemed to take exception to it... So forgive me if I'm mis-construing. As I said, I respect you as one of the rare good posters out there. :) It just surprised me, that's all.