Adamantine's Origin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adamantine's Origin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BOK2
10-09-04, 07:09 AM Me and my friend were talking about dnd stuff when I brought up that JRR Tolkien once said that mithril was really alluminum (got the info on one of the threads here) I dont really believe it myself but it makes for interesting coversation.

Now I know that mithril probably came from Tolkien's books, but where did adamantine originally came from? :)
Megrim_Lord
10-09-04, 07:29 AM If mithril was aluminium, it would be weaker than iron and steel, which makes no sense.

Titanium is lighter and more durable than either steel or iron, and shines sort of like silvery, and has always seemed to be a reasonable equivalent to mithral IMHO

Tungsten is even stronger than titanium, but is even heavier than iron. It is often used in the armor of a tank (it's used in lightbulbs too, but that's besides the point). Tungsten has always been my equivalent to adamantine.
bullfrog
10-09-04, 08:43 AM I may be wrong but I believe I have heard of adamantine (I could be wrong and it was just something spelled close to it) in historical text. I believe I heard of this while looking into info from the middle east or Africa.

Now I know this wouldn’t have been like the adamantine listed in D&D but probably a common metal given I deferent name by 1 group of people or a mixture of 2 metals that’s no longer commonly used.

But as I said I could be wrong its to early for me to look into it right now.
Shadowfax7
10-09-04, 10:19 AM Adamantine was a mythological metal or stone which was said to be the hardest ever. It is believed by some to have been diamond and in modern english it refers to diamondlike substances.

In 1st and 2nd ed. AD&D it was called Adamantite.

In Marvel Comics it is called Adamantium.

But all those forms relate back to mythology, where the term originated.
Rialto
10-09-04, 10:59 AM Adamant and Diamond both are derived from the Greek word "adamas" which means hard, indestructible, untameable, etc.
Any metal, material, or stone that had such extraordinary hardiness can be considered admantine.
As for mithril I believe it as reffered in the LoTR as Morian silver, that's it has the looks of silver and the strength of steel. It may even be an alloy of sorts...
steventirey1985
10-09-04, 04:24 PM I believe mithral does exists today. Somewhere, in a text I read meny yeays ago (cant remebmer the name), it mentioned that mithral exists, and is an alloy of platinum and some other material (also cant remember which, it was a long time ago). I never was able to find and proof of what was said, though.
Tony Vargas
10-09-04, 04:53 PM Yep, adamantine has it's roots in greek myth, with the word often translated as 'diamond' or 'steel,' which did seem to refer to an actual, extraordinary material, of course. Adamantine is a real english word that describes increadible hardness or unbreakability - a variation on adamant, and, of course, derived from the aforementioned greek word - so WotC is free to use it. Adamantium is a made-up word owned by Marvel Comics - a number of characters, like Wolverine and Captain America have adamantium items - and describes an alloy of steel with the even more made-up 'vibranium.' :rolleyes:

Mithral, is, of course, a copy-right dodge of Tolkien's Mithril, which might concievably have been inspired by modern lighweight alloys or elements, or might have been inspired by the alchemical ideal of silver - 'lunargent.'
bullfrog
10-09-04, 05:16 PM Adamantine was a mythological metal or stone which was said to be the hardest ever. It is believed by some to have been diamond and in modern english it refers to diamondlike substances.

Ok I’ve looked over some of my historical info and found that the Assyrian Empire traded for adamantine but I don’t know who they got it from. My guess would be someone in the middle east.
It’s most likely listed more but thats all I managed to dig up quickly.

It very well could have been diamonds. The Assyrians (or any one else) never made weapons out of it so I don’t believe it was a metal. Most likely a rock (probably a gem) that was very hard. Diamonds would fit.

Does any one know it there are any diamond mines in the middle east especially near Iraq?
If there are none then the diamonds would have been something the Assyrians never encountered before and would have been much stronger that anything they could think of.

I have one other idea about this. In rpgs Adamantine is often described as heavy and black with a metallic green spots. It varies from source to source along those lines. You also often hear it it being in meteorites. Now it could have been a chunk of space rook. Many chunks of meteorite are heavy and probably hard. They also are black from the tempter entering the planet but thay also have color on them. Usably metallic colors I’m guessing are from metals melting and burning away. Adamantine could have easy been meteorites.

Any way I’ll try to look into this more here in the next few days and I’ll let you guys know if I find anything.
Shadowfax7
10-10-04, 12:24 PM The Assyrians, as well as other Middle-Eastern cultures, would of traded for diamonds from Africa. This is where diamond mines existed, especially in Ethiopia (as South Africa was not within trade routes at this time).

FYI in 1st edition AD&D there existed Meteriote Iron, which was a metal that +3 weapons were made of. However, it was not the same as Adamantite, which was better, being able to be made into +5 weapons. Mithral was able to be made into +4 weapons.
Silver_Tiger
10-23-04, 12:30 AM The word adamantite made the bigtime when it was used in the Book of Revelations, referred to as the material used to chain Satan in Hell. The Greek word connotes the sense of "strength", and it's no coincidence that the first man, "Adam", was so named (strength=manliness).

ST
Talanall
10-23-04, 12:46 AM "Adam" is derived from the Hebrew for "mud," as an FYI. This etymology is very well-established as the correct one. And logically, it's far more plausible that his name is derived from a Hebrew word for "mud" or "earth," given that Genesis specifies that Adam was shaped out of clay, than that his name is derived from a Greek word meaning "something hard, strong, or durable." This is doubly true when you consider that Genesis is part of the scripture of Judaism, and hence was written in Hebrew, rather than in Greek, which is a totally unrelated language.

So yes, actually it is absolutely a coincidence that Adam's name is the same as the first four letters of "adamant." Sorry to burst your bubble.
Silver_Tiger
10-23-04, 01:29 AM "Adam" is derived from the Hebrew for "mud," as an FYI. This etymology is very well-established as the correct one. And logically, it's far more plausible that his name is derived from a Hebrew word for "mud" or "earth," given that Genesis specifies that Adam was shaped out of clay, than that his name is derived from a Greek word meaning "something hard, strong, or durable." This is doubly true when you consider that Genesis is part of the scripture of Judaism, and hence was written in Hebrew, rather than in Greek, which is a totally unrelated language.

So yes, actually it is absolutely a coincidence that Adam's name is the same as the first four letters of "adamant." Sorry to burst your bubble.

Was I bubbling? Sorry about that. Perhaps, though, there's a connection between "earth" and "hardness"? Isn't the earth the "firmament"? It wouldn't be unusual for the Greeks to pick up a word like that considering how well-travelled they were. (Didn't the Greeks produce the first "European" translations of the Torah?) Or, perhaps there's a linguistic connection further back in our Indo-European lexicon? It just seems a bit too "coincidental" so to speak. Grimm's Law would seem to indicate there probably is some kind of literal connection; though, admittedly, there is undoubtedly a metaphorical separation.

ST
Talanall
10-23-04, 01:59 AM No, there's no connection. Greek is Indo-European. Hebrew is not.

And no, Grimm's Law would indicate nothing of the kind, because it applies to Indo-European languages, specifically those from the Germanic branch. There's absolutely no basis to conclude that the words are related, linguistically speaking. They sound similar, and that's it.

"Firmament" is of Latin derivation, "earth" is good Old English (from eorđe, a feminine noun), and "hardness" is likewise good Old English (heardnyss feminine noun, from heard, adj.)

Moreover, "adamas" shows up in Greek in Homer. We don't know when he composed the Iliad, but the usual date is no earlier than 1250 BC, and usually more like 1000 BC or later. The earliest dating of Genesis that I've seen has been about 1000 BC, with the latest being around 500 BC. Odds are pretty good that "adamas" showed up in Greek before the Greeks would have been able to translate Genesis into their language.

But really, that's speculative stuff, and not grounds for a discussion of etymology. "Adam" as derived from "earth" is well attested in Biblical exegesis since the time of Jerome and before. It shows up in the commentary to all of the standard scholarly editions of the Bible that are currently in circulation.

So no. Misapplied Germanic philological laws not withstanding, they're not related. Not even further back on the linguistic tree. Hebrew is a Semitic language, sharing features with Arabic. Greek is Indo-European, sharing features with German, Latin, Sanskrit, and other such languages.
Thorak
10-23-04, 02:34 AM Actually, Adam is originally derived from the Sumerian, Ad-am. Meaning, roughly, "red earth" and "slave/worker", IIRC. The Genesis tale is almost a word-for-word carbon copy of the original Sumerian creation myth, with the pantheistic stuff removed and God's name changed, of course. It's perhaps not surpising, considering how much time the Hebrews spent as the captives of the Babylonians, who were descended regionally if not ethnically from the Sumerians, and had evolved the earlier legends along with them.

And, interestingly, the original 'good guy' was the snake. He was the god who told man to eat of the fruit of knowledge, and escape his slavery that his creator wanted him for. So it's quite understandable why, when the Hebrews adopted the tale, they switched it over; after all, if your God sees all other gods as devils, then your captor's gods must be devils, including the snake-god that in the legend frees mankind.

This also, of course, handily explains why God is talking with the royal plural in the Garden, when apparently talking to himself. In the original, there were multiple gods. And the tale retains the unchanged wording, even if the other gods have been deleted.
Talanall
10-23-04, 02:45 AM A philologist I am. A philologist in Near Eastern languages and literatures I am not. Thanks, Thorak. I didn't know about the second meaning, as "slave" or "worker."

In any case, this firmly establishes that nope, this is not a case of Indo-European languages with a shared history. Adam is definitively a Semitic word, and probably was one before the Greeks started writing.
kirsdarke
10-23-04, 03:53 PM Titanium is lighter and more durable than either steel or iron, and shines sort of like silvery, and has always seemed to be a reasonable equivalent to mithral IMHO
steel is stronger than titanium.
Sidious
10-23-04, 04:15 PM steel is stronger than titanium.
And spider silk is stronger than steel.

These boards rock....where else do you find bad guys with big swords and philogists?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
10-23-04, 05:48 PM with the pantheistic stuff removed
Nitpicking, Genesis 2 removes the polytheistic (Which is what you probbaly meant) stuff. Gen 1 keeps it, harking back to the time when the Hebrews were polytheists.

Although we probably should stay off the religious stuff.
Willie the Duck
10-23-04, 06:16 PM steel is stronger than titanium.

That depends on what you mean by "strong." Titanium has a greaters resistance to force per unit weight, which is why it is used in modern fighter aircraft. Likewise, while it is the hardest metal, in forms that us gamers might like to see it (arms and armor), it would be alloyed to a form softer than steel. I have a scuba knife that is made of titanium, and it's soft, like bronze (its value is corrosion resistance). Either way, titanium would not make good sword or armor in the real world. If you want a super sword that stands up to scientific review, I'd say a damascus forged high carbon steel with and electroplated chromium or tungsten coating.
BooMittwoch
10-23-04, 07:30 PM I'm astounded at the incredibly intelligent topics found in these forums. This thread is also quite respectful.

If only other people could learn from you guys. I tip my non-existent hat to you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BOK2 10-09-04, 07:09 AM	Me and my friend were talking about dnd stuff when I brought up that JRR Tolkien once said that mithril was really alluminum (got the info on one of the threads here) I dont really believe it myself but it makes for interesting coversation. Now I know that mithril probably came from Tolkien's books, but where did adamantine originally came from? :)
Megrim_Lord 10-09-04, 07:29 AM	If mithril was aluminium, it would be weaker than iron and steel, which makes no sense. Titanium is lighter and more durable than either steel or iron, and shines sort of like silvery, and has always seemed to be a reasonable equivalent to mithral IMHO Tungsten is even stronger than titanium, but is even heavier than iron. It is often used in the armor of a tank (it's used in lightbulbs too, but that's besides the point). Tungsten has always been my equivalent to adamantine.
bullfrog 10-09-04, 08:43 AM	I may be wrong but I believe I have heard of adamantine (I could be wrong and it was just something spelled close to it) in historical text. I believe I heard of this while looking into info from the middle east or Africa. Now I know this wouldn’t have been like the adamantine listed in D&D but probably a common metal given I deferent name by 1 group of people or a mixture of 2 metals that’s no longer commonly used. But as I said I could be wrong its to early for me to look into it right now.
Shadowfax7 10-09-04, 10:19 AM	Adamantine was a mythological metal or stone which was said to be the hardest ever. It is believed by some to have been diamond and in modern english it refers to diamondlike substances. In 1st and 2nd ed. AD&D it was called Adamantite. In Marvel Comics it is called Adamantium. But all those forms relate back to mythology, where the term originated.
Rialto 10-09-04, 10:59 AM	Adamant and Diamond both are derived from the Greek word "adamas" which means hard, indestructible, untameable, etc. Any metal, material, or stone that had such extraordinary hardiness can be considered admantine. As for mithril I believe it as reffered in the LoTR as Morian silver, that's it has the looks of silver and the strength of steel. It may even be an alloy of sorts...
steventirey1985 10-09-04, 04:24 PM	I believe mithral does exists today. Somewhere, in a text I read meny yeays ago (cant remebmer the name), it mentioned that mithral exists, and is an alloy of platinum and some other material (also cant remember which, it was a long time ago). I never was able to find and proof of what was said, though.
Tony Vargas 10-09-04, 04:53 PM	Yep, adamantine has it's roots in greek myth, with the word often translated as 'diamond' or 'steel,' which did seem to refer to an actual, extraordinary material, of course. Adamantine is a real english word that describes increadible hardness or unbreakability - a variation on adamant, and, of course, derived from the aforementioned greek word - so WotC is free to use it. Adamantium is a made-up word owned by Marvel Comics - a number of characters, like Wolverine and Captain America have adamantium items - and describes an alloy of steel with the even more made-up 'vibranium.' :rolleyes: Mithral, is, of course, a copy-right dodge of Tolkien's Mithril, which might concievably have been inspired by modern lighweight alloys or elements, or might have been inspired by the alchemical ideal of silver - 'lunargent.'
bullfrog 10-09-04, 05:16 PM	Adamantine was a mythological metal or stone which was said to be the hardest ever. It is believed by some to have been diamond and in modern english it refers to diamondlike substances. Ok I’ve looked over some of my historical info and found that the Assyrian Empire traded for adamantine but I don’t know who they got it from. My guess would be someone in the middle east. It’s most likely listed more but thats all I managed to dig up quickly. It very well could have been diamonds. The Assyrians (or any one else) never made weapons out of it so I don’t believe it was a metal. Most likely a rock (probably a gem) that was very hard. Diamonds would fit. Does any one know it there are any diamond mines in the middle east especially near Iraq? If there are none then the diamonds would have been something the Assyrians never encountered before and would have been much stronger that anything they could think of. I have one other idea about this. In rpgs Adamantine is often described as heavy and black with a metallic green spots. It varies from source to source along those lines. You also often hear it it being in meteorites. Now it could have been a chunk of space rook. Many chunks of meteorite are heavy and probably hard. They also are black from the tempter entering the planet but thay also have color on them. Usably metallic colors I’m guessing are from metals melting and burning away. Adamantine could have easy been meteorites. Any way I’ll try to look into this more here in the next few days and I’ll let you guys know if I find anything.
Shadowfax7 10-10-04, 12:24 PM	The Assyrians, as well as other Middle-Eastern cultures, would of traded for diamonds from Africa. This is where diamond mines existed, especially in Ethiopia (as South Africa was not within trade routes at this time). FYI in 1st edition AD&D there existed Meteriote Iron, which was a metal that +3 weapons were made of. However, it was not the same as Adamantite, which was better, being able to be made into +5 weapons. Mithral was able to be made into +4 weapons.
Silver_Tiger 10-23-04, 12:30 AM	The word adamantite made the bigtime when it was used in the Book of Revelations, referred to as the material used to chain Satan in Hell. The Greek word connotes the sense of "strength", and it's no coincidence that the first man, "Adam", was so named (strength=manliness). ST
Talanall 10-23-04, 12:46 AM	"Adam" is derived from the Hebrew for "mud," as an FYI. This etymology is very well-established as the correct one. And logically, it's far more plausible that his name is derived from a Hebrew word for "mud" or "earth," given that Genesis specifies that Adam was shaped out of clay, than that his name is derived from a Greek word meaning "something hard, strong, or durable." This is doubly true when you consider that Genesis is part of the scripture of Judaism, and hence was written in Hebrew, rather than in Greek, which is a totally unrelated language. So yes, actually it is absolutely a coincidence that Adam's name is the same as the first four letters of "adamant." Sorry to burst your bubble.
Silver_Tiger 10-23-04, 01:29 AM	"Adam" is derived from the Hebrew for "mud," as an FYI. This etymology is very well-established as the correct one. And logically, it's far more plausible that his name is derived from a Hebrew word for "mud" or "earth," given that Genesis specifies that Adam was shaped out of clay, than that his name is derived from a Greek word meaning "something hard, strong, or durable." This is doubly true when you consider that Genesis is part of the scripture of Judaism, and hence was written in Hebrew, rather than in Greek, which is a totally unrelated language. So yes, actually it is absolutely a coincidence that Adam's name is the same as the first four letters of "adamant." Sorry to burst your bubble. Was I bubbling? Sorry about that. Perhaps, though, there's a connection between "earth" and "hardness"? Isn't the earth the "firmament"? It wouldn't be unusual for the Greeks to pick up a word like that considering how well-travelled they were. (Didn't the Greeks produce the first "European" translations of the Torah?) Or, perhaps there's a linguistic connection further back in our Indo-European lexicon? It just seems a bit too "coincidental" so to speak. Grimm's Law would seem to indicate there probably is some kind of literal connection; though, admittedly, there is undoubtedly a metaphorical separation. ST
Talanall 10-23-04, 01:59 AM	No, there's no connection. Greek is Indo-European. Hebrew is not. And no, Grimm's Law would indicate nothing of the kind, because it applies to Indo-European languages, specifically those from the Germanic branch. There's absolutely no basis to conclude that the words are related, linguistically speaking. They sound similar, and that's it. "Firmament" is of Latin derivation, "earth" is good Old English (from eorđe, a feminine noun), and "hardness" is likewise good Old English (heardnyss feminine noun, from heard, adj.) Moreover, "adamas" shows up in Greek in Homer. We don't know when he composed the Iliad, but the usual date is no earlier than 1250 BC, and usually more like 1000 BC or later. The earliest dating of Genesis that I've seen has been about 1000 BC, with the latest being around 500 BC. Odds are pretty good that "adamas" showed up in Greek before the Greeks would have been able to translate Genesis into their language. But really, that's speculative stuff, and not grounds for a discussion of etymology. "Adam" as derived from "earth" is well attested in Biblical exegesis since the time of Jerome and before. It shows up in the commentary to all of the standard scholarly editions of the Bible that are currently in circulation. So no. Misapplied Germanic philological laws not withstanding, they're not related. Not even further back on the linguistic tree. Hebrew is a Semitic language, sharing features with Arabic. Greek is Indo-European, sharing features with German, Latin, Sanskrit, and other such languages.
Thorak 10-23-04, 02:34 AM	Actually, Adam is originally derived from the Sumerian, Ad-am. Meaning, roughly, "red earth" and "slave/worker", IIRC. The Genesis tale is almost a word-for-word carbon copy of the original Sumerian creation myth, with the pantheistic stuff removed and God's name changed, of course. It's perhaps not surpising, considering how much time the Hebrews spent as the captives of the Babylonians, who were descended regionally if not ethnically from the Sumerians, and had evolved the earlier legends along with them. And, interestingly, the original 'good guy' was the snake. He was the god who told man to eat of the fruit of knowledge, and escape his slavery that his creator wanted him for. So it's quite understandable why, when the Hebrews adopted the tale, they switched it over; after all, if your God sees all other gods as devils, then your captor's gods must be devils, including the snake-god that in the legend frees mankind. This also, of course, handily explains why God is talking with the royal plural in the Garden, when apparently talking to himself. In the original, there were multiple gods. And the tale retains the unchanged wording, even if the other gods have been deleted.
Talanall 10-23-04, 02:45 AM	A philologist I am. A philologist in Near Eastern languages and literatures I am not. Thanks, Thorak. I didn't know about the second meaning, as "slave" or "worker." In any case, this firmly establishes that nope, this is not a case of Indo-European languages with a shared history. Adam is definitively a Semitic word, and probably was one before the Greeks started writing.
kirsdarke 10-23-04, 03:53 PM	Titanium is lighter and more durable than either steel or iron, and shines sort of like silvery, and has always seemed to be a reasonable equivalent to mithral IMHO steel is stronger than titanium.
Sidious 10-23-04, 04:15 PM	steel is stronger than titanium. And spider silk is stronger than steel. These boards rock....where else do you find bad guys with big swords and philogists?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-23-04, 05:48 PM	with the pantheistic stuff removed Nitpicking, Genesis 2 removes the polytheistic (Which is what you probbaly meant) stuff. Gen 1 keeps it, harking back to the time when the Hebrews were polytheists. Although we probably should stay off the religious stuff.
Willie the Duck 10-23-04, 06:16 PM	steel is stronger than titanium. That depends on what you mean by "strong." Titanium has a greaters resistance to force per unit weight, which is why it is used in modern fighter aircraft. Likewise, while it is the hardest metal, in forms that us gamers might like to see it (arms and armor), it would be alloyed to a form softer than steel. I have a scuba knife that is made of titanium, and it's soft, like bronze (its value is corrosion resistance). Either way, titanium would not make good sword or armor in the real world. If you want a super sword that stands up to scientific review, I'd say a damascus forged high carbon steel with and electroplated chromium or tungsten coating.
BooMittwoch 10-23-04, 07:30 PM	I'm astounded at the incredibly intelligent topics found in these forums. This thread is also quite respectful. If only other people could learn from you guys. I tip my non-existent hat to you.