Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grogmir 07-16-07, 06:28 AM	Hey Guys A little question please. In our group at the moment (Knight, Paladin, Cleric, Beguiler/Transmutator/Ulitmate Magus (Me)) Now we are playing a standard module (i.e our DM didn’t give it him on purpose) and our Knight has just got a +3 Adamantine sword. We looked up the rules regarding this and it says it ignores all hardness less than 20, now we were unsure how this translated into combat. Do they just ignore armour? Making it basically a touch attack. Do they include armour but each time she hits the armour takes damage? Is it not included at all because the target is not the armour itself but the monster? Cheers for the advice on this one. Grogmir.
Leilond 07-16-07, 06:31 AM	Hey Guys A little question please. In our group at the moment (Knight, Paladin, Cleric, Beguiler/Transmutator/Ulitmate Magus (Me)) Now we are playing a standard module (i.e our DM didn’t give it him on purpose) and our Knight has just got a +3 Adamantine sword. We looked up the rules regarding this and it says it ignores all hardness less than 20, now we were unsure how this translated into combat. Do they just ignore armour? Making it basically a touch attack. No Do they include armour but each time she hits the armour takes damage? No Is it not included at all because the target is not the armour itself but the monster? Exactly Cheers for the advice on this one. Grogmir. Ignoring hardeness is usefull for - Sundering weapon/shields - Fighting against "animated objects" (animated stone statue have 8 hardenenss, animated steel has 10, animated mithrall has 15) - Break doors, locks and so on
Grogmir 07-16-07, 06:55 AM	Cheers for that - our kinght will be upset- she's being hitting touch attacks on anything but a 1!. But we knew it wasn't right - hence the question. The DM has houseruled though (if your answer was the case) that on a succesful hit any Armour AC would be reduced by one. So not all bad! Cheers for the advice. Grogmir.
Lawkeeper 07-16-07, 08:31 AM	- Break doors, locks and so on Heretic ! Why limit yourself to doors and locks ? Cut through the walls !:D
Dalthbar 07-16-07, 08:39 AM	Also great against constructs and people that tend to cast Stoneskin on themselves.
Leilond 07-16-07, 08:40 AM	Heretic ! Why limit yourself to doors and locks ? Cut through the walls !:D Because in my games weapons deal half damage to walls, 1/4 if they're slashing or piercing. In my game you need "mine tools" to "mine" I apply that rule since so much, and I forgot that by the RAW you can pass throught a wall with an adamantine knife
Lawkeeper 07-16-07, 08:54 AM	Well, 1/2 and 1/4 dmg is a logical house-rule (although hardness and lot of hp serve that purpose already), but working through a wall with a sword is still possible. Wield an adamantine weapon with both hands, power-attacking to the maximum possible, and you'll cut through any wall faster than you think. Off course, forfeit all elements of surprise, but it still does the work faster than non-adamantine mining tools. BTW, adamantine applied to a weapon is only 3000gp : you might as well travel with an adamantine maul strapped on your back to be used both as ad hoc mining tool and spare (bludgeoning) weapon.
Leilond 07-16-07, 09:05 AM	Well, 1/2 and 1/4 dmg is a logical house-rule (although hardness and lot of hp serve that purpose already), but working through a wall with a sword is still possible. Wield an adamantine weapon with both hands, power-attacking to the maximum possible, and you'll cut through any wall faster than you think. Off course, forfeit all elements of surprise, but it still does the work faster than non-adamantine mining tools. Except that I won't admit "power attack" without a "to hit roll" and you don't need a "hit roll" against a wall BTW, adamantine applied to a weapon is only 3000gp : you might as well travel with an adamantine maul strapped on your back to be used both as ad hoc mining tool and spare (bludgeoning) weapon. Sure sure... it's a matter of personal preference I will admit a dwarf made warhammer, because I like to think that their hammer are made to mine too But the rules are clear. You can use an adamantin dagger to pass a wall with no much effort
Thiez 07-16-07, 09:17 AM	Except that I won't admit "power attack" without a "to hit roll" and you don't need a "hit roll" against a wall Still, one can only miss on a natural 1. Consider the AC. The wall is, let's say, Gargantuan. -4 to AC. And it's inanimate. That's another -2 to AC. And a Dex score of 0. That's another -5 to AC. Hmmn, an AC of -1. I think we'll manage. With Full-Round attacks and full Power Attack, we'll do way more damage than just Power Attacking for an automatic hit once/round. I take it you won't allow Power Attack on a Coup de Grace? :(
Leilond 07-16-07, 09:26 AM	Still, one can only miss on a natural 1. Consider the AC. The wall is, let's say, Gargantuan. -4 to AC. And it's inanimate. That's another -2 to AC. And a Dex score of 0. That's another -5 to AC. Hmmn, an AC of -1. I think we'll manage. With Full-Round attacks and full Power Attack, we'll do way more damage than just Power Attacking for an automatic hit once/round. I try to mantain my games A BIT realistic... and I cannot think about a 20th level fighter that miss a wall! :D I take it you won't allow Power Attack on a Coup de Grace? :( Absolutely not. 1) I think the rules require it, because in the power attack rules it is written On your action, before making attack rolls for a round... ... [b]Special If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. ... Thus you have to make some "attack rolls". A rotg article for "combat expertise" say the same things, requiring an attack roll or AT LEAST the sacrifice of a standard aciton (if you've no one at range) 2) I think that "coupe de grace" is made with full strenght and you cannot power it more than that. You give up not only "some bonus" but "all your action for that round" to obtain a "deadly blow". So I think it is already inlcluded all the benefit you can obtain 3) You forgive "accuracy" for "damage", but with coupe de grace you cannot forgive accuracy because you auto-hit, thus it appear unfair to me Thus I think that you cannot power attack with a "coupe the grace" and I won't admit it also because I think it is illogical and unfair If your concearn is "pure damage" , you can "full attack" your enemy instead of coupe de grace and you give up the "fortitude save" for some more damage
Shadowfax7 07-16-07, 09:55 AM	Also great against constructs and people that tend to cast Stoneskin on themselves.Both have DR, not hardness.
Lawkeeper 07-16-07, 10:07 AM	Sorry Leilond, but even against a wall you need to make an attack roll. It's an object, it's part of the Attacking objects section, and it specifically says you need to make an attack roll. The AC is ridiculously low, I agree, but you still need to hit it. Also, please not that normal discussion is about normal, standard rules - not house-rules. And here, you've already brought two house-rules : reduced damage and no attack roll. You're not arguing the standard rules, you're illustrating your house-rules.;)
Lawkeeper 07-16-07, 10:12 AM	Both have DR, not hardness. Stoneskin gives a DR/adamantine, so your point is moot.;) As for Constructs, neither is true : Construct type gives neither DR nor hardness. It has to be examined on a per-casis : animated objects have hardness, golems have DR/adamantine, Inevitables have DR/chaotic, and that's all for the core Constructs. So, animated objects and golems are adversely affected by adamantine weapons as well - only inevitables have valuable DR.
Thiez 07-16-07, 10:22 AM	Sorry Leilond, but even against a wall you need to make an attack roll. It's an object, it's part of the Attacking objects section, and it specifically says you need to make an attack roll. The AC is ridiculously low, I agree, but you still need to hit it. I beg your pardon? Give me a minute, I'll look up the page to prove you wrong :) Edit: I can't believe you missed this. Page 165, Smashing An Object -> Hardness -> "Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon." (Last sentence of the 'Hardness' part.)
Leilond 07-16-07, 10:24 AM	Both have DR, not hardness. Animated objects have have hardness, and they're constructs
Leilond 07-16-07, 10:25 AM	Sorry Leilond, but even against a wall you need to make an attack roll. It's an object, it's part of the Attacking objects section, and it specifically says you need to make an attack roll. The AC is ridiculously low, I agree, but you still need to hit it. Also, please not that normal discussion is about normal, standard rules - not house-rules. And here, you've already brought two house-rules : reduced damage and no attack roll. You're not arguing the standard rules, you're illustrating your house-rules.;) I think that until I specify "my house rule" I can freely talk I've also pointed out which is the rule, as you can read
tarkin 07-16-07, 11:05 AM	Leilond, it is more polite to point out that you are House Ruling. Merely saying "In my game" may simply mean you don't know what the real core rules are. As to the rules itself, I personally have seen people miss a wall. At the very least, a natural 1 should still miss. This is how I rule it, and I do not think I am house ruling. 1. Stationary object. That means -5 penalty for a dex of 0 AND another -4 penalty for being totally stationary/helpless. 2. a specific wall section 5x5 counts as Large. -1 to hit. 3. Total AC = 10 -5-4-1 = 0. Natural one still misses. If you are making attacks with a net penalty -1 or -2 to hit, you still always hit unless you roll a natural one. If you have penalties of -3 or worse there is the chance you might miss. Also if you can't see the wall, there is a 50% chance of missing it.
Lawkeeper 07-16-07, 11:16 AM	I beg your pardon? Give me a minute, I'll look up the page to prove you wrong :) Edit: I can't believe you missed this. Page 165, Smashing An Object -> Hardness -> "Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon." (Last sentence of the 'Hardness' part.) Are you missing the "if you take a full-round action to line up a shot" part ? If you simply make an attack action or a full-attack action to issue a full multiple attack, the sentence you just quoted doesn't apply. I can't believe you missed this.;) For you quoted only a part of what applies. The full paragraph does on the following : Armor Class Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they usually don’t move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object’s Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (-5 penalty to AC), but also an additional -2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon. So, why going around giving you precise AC calculation if all attacks are meant as being carefully lined up ? Nonsense.
Thiez 07-16-07, 04:33 PM	Hmmn, I misunderstood your post, thought you meant getting an automatic hit was impossible, in any circumstance. I agree you can't line up if you want a full attack. :bow: Are we ok? ;)
Lawkeeper 07-16-07, 05:06 PM	No problem. In fact, lining up is better in one circumstance, with adamantine weapons : at lower levels, when you only have one attack and the +5 bonus to damage is really useful. But as soon as you can get a second attack (or even attack TWF without the adequate feats - I wonder how dual-wielding warhammers looks...), the average damage rockets up. That said, mixing iterative attacks and power attack can be tricky : you have to determine how much penalty you're ready to take, and remember how it affects all your attacks. If you PA/20 your attack and have a BAB+20, you'll have to remember that your base attack for the fourth iterative attack is -15, to which you have to add all modifiers. Without other modifiers, it's a 70% chances of miss on your fourth attack, 45% of miss on the third and 20% miss on the second. Better make some maths at home with all the modifiers your character gets to determine which PA brings the most average damage per round.
Rustmonster 07-16-07, 08:21 PM	Rolling a 1 on an attack VS a wall is like hitting it wrong, causing no damage. Remember, failing an attack roll =/= "missing". It means not damaging.